March 19: Milan - San Remo 2011 298km

[Night Rider]

Lol, in no way is Goss a tactical genius.

He played to his strengths impeccably in this race. You can’t ask for much more than that.

 

[El Pistolero]

He played to his strengths impeccably in this race. You can’t ask for much more than that.

You also can't call it a tactical genius.

He was the fastest sprinter, why would he attack?

Everything he did seemed pretty obvious to me. Being a tactical genius would mean he won against all odds. All odds were in favor of him.

 

[Night Rider]

You also can't call it a tactical genius.

I didn't.

Interesting topic though. Who are the riders we would consider tactical genius'?

We know Contador can outsmart his own team and manager as well as the rest of the Peloton. But who else has it? Fabian?

 

[fatsprintking]

Yeah winning races like MSR is eeeaaasy. You just do what is obvious. Didnt Cancellara ride away from all the sprinters once is some race....

Goss didnt chase down every attack, just the ones he really needed to. It might look like it is obvious in retrospect, even easy. Its not.

 

[El Pistolero]

I didn't.

Interesting topic though. Who are the riders we would consider tactical genius'?

We know Contador can outsmart his own team and manager as well as the rest of the Peloton. But who else has it? Fabian?

I think you can call Fabian smart, but I've also heard stories that he's like a big baby and needs to be surrounded by people he likes.

So perhaps he's just so strong that we think it's being tactically smart or he just listens to what Bjarne said

 

[El Pistolero]

Yeah winning races like MSR is eeeaaasy. You just do what is obvious. Didnt Cancellara ride away from all the sprinters once is some race....

Goss didnt chase down every attack, just the ones he really needed to. It might look like it is obvious in retrospect, even easy. Its not.

Yes, Cancellara did that, that's why it's obvious he needed to be countered.

Winning MSR isn't easy, but Goss got very very very lucky. I don't see him win MSR next year, but I do see him win other harder classics in the future. A sprinter that can follow the best puncheurs. Sounds like Boonen.

 

[fatsprintking]

Tom Boonen......Or Sean Kelly or Eddy Plankaert.

Goss waited for others to respond when it was smart to do so and reacted instantly when he needed to - in the last couple of k's of MSR when others with much more experience made mistakes. Pozzato, Gilbert and Cancellara all "should" have won given the circumstances and all would be able to tell you how they "would" win if they were back out there again. Goss rode perfectly and he won. There is always luck in cycling, but to say he was "lucky"!!!!!

He will win many many races over the next 10 years in many situations over different terrain. Have a look at how many teams want him now. Because he is "Lucky" - no - but because he has skills that cant be taught.

Obvious....my ****.

 

[The Hitch]

Im kind of with El Pisti for once. Not jumping on Goss, just the words "tactical genius" arent ones to be used lightly. Even if he was clever, there was no masterstroke that left his opponents thinking "holy ****, what just happened?"

Kasparov is a tactical genius. Hannibal was a tactical genius (baiting Pistolero into giving us another 10 essays about how Hannibal was bla bla bla)

But in cycling, it should only really be used for those rare moves that no one sees coming, that look unlikely to succeed but do. Like Nieves perfect ttt victory at the Vuelta, or Saxo throwing Frank in front of Contador.

youngest is my favourite poster on here but when he says

Except in the way he won this race.

I cant help but feel hes just baiting Pisti like we all like to do.

I mean under this logic, does that make Oscar Perreiro a tactical genius for getting into the break that won 30 minutes? I suppose you could actually argue it does because he deliberately lost big the previous day, but ok then, does it make Arroyo a tactical genius for being in the break that got 12 minutes. Or did he just get into a break and then look up into the sky and say "thank you god for making it rain today".

 

[fatsprintking]

Ok Ok ... Re reading my original post, I can accept that the term tactical genius was perhaps ill advised.

My point was however that I hope we can recognise the subtle decsions that decide a race and appreciate them. Having watched Matt Goss come up through the age groups, it does not surprise me that he won the race in the way that he did.

I would be really happy to be proven wrong if other riders started to say that Goss is a dunce and it was a fluke that he won a race in the way that he did, but my suspicion is that you will not hear anyone that knows him say that and that it is already understood that while he is quick, he is also clever.

Time will tell I suppose, but my money is on more tactically good riding from MHG.

 

[mad black]

Ok Ok ... Re reading my original post, I can accept that the term tactical genius was perhaps ill advised.

My point was however that I hope we can recognise the subtle decsions that decide a race and appreciate them. Having watched Matt Goss come up through the age groups, it does not surprise me that he won the race in the way that he did.

I would be really happy to be proven wrong if other riders started to say that Goss is a dunce and it was a fluke that he won a race in the way that he did, but my suspicion is that you will not hear anyone that knows him say that and that it is already understood that while he is quick, he is also clever.

Time will tell I suppose, but my money is on more tactically good riding from MHG.

I agree with the above but I'm also going to throw a curly one in there and argue that he was aided by his (Specialized's) new weapon of choice the Venge. It was the perfect race to debut the venge, a race where it could shine because it's long relatively flat and straight ahead. I'd go as far as saying Goss had just that little bit more left at the end because of the claimed watt savings of the bike. God bless technology!

 

[Night Rider]

I agree with the above but I'm also going to throw a curly one in there and argue that he was aided by his (Specialized's) new weapon of choice the Venge. It was the perfect race to debut the venge, a race where it could shine because it's long relatively flat and straight ahead. I'd go as far as saying Goss had just that little bit more left at the end because of the claimed watt savings of the bike. God bless technology!

I’m going to calmly walk away and pretend that’s a wind up.

 

[tidean]

I agree with the above but I'm also going to throw a curly one in there and argue that he was aided by his (Specialized's) new weapon of choice the Venge. It was the perfect race to debut the venge, a race where it could shine because it's long relatively flat and straight ahead. I'd go as far as saying Goss had just that little bit more left at the end because of the claimed watt savings of the bike. God bless technology!

Thought I read somewhere that only Cav was on a Venge, so really it is egg on the Specialised promo. But not really cos the bike will be promoted & obviously people did not notice, the Venge was promoted & a Specialised won the race so all is good for them.

 

[function]

Pozzato not having an engine...

Pozzato clearly doesn't have the engine to break away himself.

I have no idea where you guys get this stuff, Pozzato is certainly not lacking for "engine". Check out him chasing Cancellara, Flecha and Boonen (albeit unsuccessfully, but it's worth watching) in 2010 E3 Prijs for example with ~40km to go.

 

[Boardslide]

Thought I read somewhere that only Cav was on a Venge, so really it is egg on the Specialised promo. But not really cos the bike will be promoted & obviously people did not notice, the Venge was promoted & a Specialised won the race so all is good for them.

There were 9 riders in total riding the Venge, 3 each from Astana, Saxo Bank and HTC, Goss was one of the 3 together with Cav & Eisel.

 

[unsheath]

Tactical Genius is overkill. Perhaps Tactially Astute is a more appropriate phrase.

Nevertheless, he didnt put a foot wrong all race. Compare that to Pozzato who hasnt made a right move since his last fluke win in MSR.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

From the article with Ballan today:

Ballan himself was more perplexed by Vincenzo Nibali and Liquigas-Cannondale’s tactics in the final 20km, and he was surprised that they didn’t look to set up Peter Sagan for the sprint.
“I didn’t really understand Liquigas’ tactics,” he said. “Sagan was coming back on behind and Nibali kept attacking. I would have looked to try and bring Sagan to the finish in a sprint.”


I must say, I was wondering why Nibali kept attacking too, when Sagan was in that 2nd group only 10 or 15 seconds behind.

A sign they are not getting along very well? Nibali feeling too big to work for a younger teammate in such a race?
Seems a bit egocentrical of Nibs, certainly if you hear Ballan that Sagan was only just behind.

 

[Parrulo]

From the article with Ballan today:

Ballan himself was more perplexed by Vincenzo Nibali and Liquigas-Cannondale’s tactics in the final 20km, and he was surprised that they didn’t look to set up Peter Sagan for the sprint.
“I didn’t really understand Liquigas’ tactics,” he said. “Sagan was coming back on behind and Nibali kept attacking. I would have looked to try and bring Sagan to the finish in a sprint.”


I must say, I was wondering why Nibali kept attacking too, when Sagan was in that 2nd group only 10 or 15 seconds behind.

A sign they are not getting along very well? Nibali feeling too big to work for a younger teammate in such a race?
Seems a bit egocentrical of Nibs, certainly if you hear Ballan that Sagan was only just behind.

or maybe sagan just told the team he didn't have the legs. he could be just barely hanging there, after all he is only 21 so after 300k that would be expected, nibali doesn't look like the egocentric kind of guy tbh

 

[El Pistolero]

I have no idea where you guys get this stuff, Pozzato is certainly not lacking for "engine". Check out him chasing Cancellara, Flecha and Boonen (albeit unsuccessfully, but it's worth watching) in 2010 E3 Prijs for example with ~40km to go.

Yeah, Squinzi said he had an extraordinary engine. The same Squinzi that called Cancellara the next Miguel Indurain.

 

[joy118118]

Sagan said he made a mistake that he followed the wrong riders on the final climb.

 

[Polyarmour]

I have no idea where you guys get this stuff, Pozzato is certainly not lacking for "engine". Check out him chasing Cancellara, Flecha and Boonen (albeit unsuccessfully, but it's worth watching) in 2010 E3 Prijs for example with ~40km to go.

I think you just proved my point.

 

[kurtinsc]

Yeah, Squinzi said he had an extraordinary engine. The same Squinzi that called Cancellara the next Miguel Indurain.

When it comes to time trialing... Cancellare IS the next Miguel Indurain. Maybe better.

If he got the level of clinic help big Mig got... he might climb like him too.

 

[El Pistolero]

When it comes to time trialing... Cancellare IS the next Miguel Indurain. Maybe better.

If he got the level of clinic help big Mig got... he might climb like him too.

I'm not denying that?

Pozatto has a lot of talent.

Squinzi was referring to his time trial abilities, not his climbing talent.

 

[function]

I think you just proved my point.

Either you didn't watch E3 Prijs, or do not appreciate talent when you see it. Oh well.

 

[Echoes]

I must say, I was wondering why Nibali kept attacking too, when Sagan was in that 2nd group only 10 or 15 seconds behind.

Random thought:

He wanted to win Milan Sanremo.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Random thought:

He wanted to win Milan Sanremo.

Randon thought:

How was he going to beat let alone place in the finale against Cancellara, Goss, Gilbert, Ballan, etc?