max o2?

[amatoer]

The Norweagian 18 year old oscar Svendson have just measured 97,5ml/kg/min
Is this the highest O2 measured for a teenager ?
His body Weight is 75 kg.
He is a junior cyclist in joker merida.

 

[TomasC]

Wouldn't that be the highest vo2max ever measured (at least publicly known)?
Also of interest - the highest places seem to be occupied by Norwegians.

Edit: link

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Could someone please teach the norwegians how to measure VO2 max properly?

 

[amatoer]

Norway high o2 messures

Could someone please teach the norwegians how to measure VO2 max properly?

LoL.
The boy have been tested in several places .and the equipment have been checked with the olympic center in "LIllehammar".
I think that Boasson Hagen have tested 86-87 the highest in Norway before this young fellow is Bjoern Dælie, the skier , he tested 96.

 

[Markyboyzx6r]

If I'd admin'd that test - I'd be checking my analyser. The equipment may calibrate correctly but the analyser may be way off - and this gets worse the higher up the O2 scale you're going.

Also, what was the sampling rate? Were they going breath-by-breath or 8 second average? These things are important as when the athlete takes the score, they will always take the absolute highest number on the data - even if it's an outlier. Everyone wants their VO2max to be as high as possible, just as my wife will best trust the body mass scales which read the lightest.

I'd take such reports with a pinch of salt.

 

[BigBoat]

If I'd admin'd that test - I'd be checking my analyser. The equipment may calibrate correctly but the analyser may be way off - and this gets worse the higher up the O2 scale you're going.

Also, what was the sampling rate? Were they going breath-by-breath or 8 second average? These things are important as when the athlete takes the score, they will always take the absolute highest number on the data - even if it's an outlier. Everyone wants their VO2max to be as high as possible, just as my wife will best trust the body mass scales which read the lightest.

I'd take such reports with a pinch of salt.

Yeah it could have been wrong.

Although if you tested Alberto Contador or even Andrew Talanski for that matter yesterday they'd both be very close to that number. Probably 91 V02 max for Talanski & 96 V02 max for former.

 

[ToreBear]

Article about him from last year:
http://translate.google.com/transla...testresultater-av-norsk-17-åring-8704&act=url

At the time that article was written his last test was at 85,6 after a small training period after the season.

His record stated in that article is 87,7.

Article from today:
http://translate.google.com/transla...distrikt/hedmark_og_oppland/1.8312121&act=url

97,5

Appearently after the testing they took the equipment for a check and it was ok.


I don't really know anything about this vo2 max testing. Perhaps things are done different in Norway than other places?

There is a link to a testing group explaining some of the basics of testing. But if it's detailed enough to see if it's not done according to some standard, I don't know.

The article says something about his size being a variable. More muscles=higher o2 need i guess.


So why the huge numbers?
Tyler'sTwin might be on to something. But I doubt Norwegians live in a scientific bubble.


Perhaps it has something to do with skiing a lot when he was younger? Norwegians usually learn to ski before they learn how to ride a bike.



Interestingly he is from Lillehammer, same place as EBH.
Perhaps there is something in the water?

 

[Markyboyzx6r]

Article about him from last year:
http://translate.google.com/transla...testresultater-av-norsk-17-åring-8704&act=url

At the time that article was written his last test was at 85,6 after a small training period after the season.

His record stated in that article is 87,7.

Article from today:
http://translate.google.com/transla...distrikt/hedmark_og_oppland/1.8312121&act=url

97,5

Appearently after the testing they took the equipment for a check and it was ok.


I don't really know anything about this vo2 max testing. Perhaps things are done different in Norway than other places?

There is a link to a testing group explaining some of the basics of testing. But if it's detailed enough to see if it's not done according to some standard, I don't know.

The article says something about his size being a variable. More muscles=higher o2 need i guess.


So why the huge numbers?
Tyler'sTwin might be on to something. But I doubt Norwegians live in a scientific bubble.


Perhaps it has something to do with skiing a lot when he was younger? Norwegians usually learn to ski before they learn how to ride a bike.



Interestingly he is from Lillehammer, same place as EBH.
Perhaps there is something in the water?

Protocol certainly dictates results, as X-Country skiing has traditionally been seen as recruiting more muscle mass therefore increasing peak VO2 values in comparison to legs-only testing. Whether that stands in elite level testing I'm not sure - I haven't looked in the journals in recent years.

Intuition suggests there's something iffy about the values, but intuition isn't relevant in science. Yeah - - I'm still sticking to the pinch of salt.

 

[ToreBear]

Protocol certainly dictates results, as X-Country skiing has traditionally been seen as recruiting more muscle mass therefore increasing peak VO2 values in comparison to legs-only testing. Whether that stands in elite level testing I'm not sure - I haven't looked in the journals in recent years.

Intuition suggests there's something iffy about the values, but intuition isn't relevant in science. Yeah - - I'm still sticking to the pinch of salt.

Heres a link with contact info for the tester:
http://www.hil.no/om_hoegskolen/alle_ansatte_ved_hoegskolen_i_lillehammer_hil/Joar-Hansen

Link to the lab:
http://www.hil.no/forskning/Idrettsfysiologisk-testlaboratorium_

In Norwegian so use translator as neccesarry.


If you know about these kinds of tests you could just send him an email and ask about the protocol used.

That's if your interested ofcourse.

 

[amatoer]

could be the new tempo specialist

He look like cancelara

 

[FitSsikS]

At the time that article was written his last test was at 85,6 after a small training period after the season.

His record stated in that article is 87,7.

Article from today:
http://translate.google.com/transla...distrikt/hedmark_og_oppland/1.8312121&act=url

97,5

Nice..err....little improvement there. Where's the 'alarm bell' smilie?



On a serious note I would suggest as other have, that something is up with the test/equipment/protocol/technician.

I see this sort of thing more frequently with body fat %s.

 

[meandmygitane]

I offer five explanations sorted from the most likely to the least likely

- Systematic errors in measuring VO2-max, by Norwegians.
- Systematic sandbagging in VO2-max reporting, by the rest of the world.
- Lucky world records four times in a row (Daehlie, Bjerke, Arvesen and now this).
- Systematic doping.
- Norwegians are genetically superior (which has not really been shown in any aerobic endurance sport).

 

[Animal]

Protocol certainly dictates results, as X-Country skiing has traditionally been seen as recruiting more muscle mass therefore increasing peak VO2 values in comparison to legs-only testing.

VO2Max is a measure of cardiac output surely?

The muscles can use as much oxygen as they can get. Using other muscle groups would just share the same oxygen supply.

Stephen Seiler's now defunct MAPP is useful about this topic: http://web.archive.org/web/20071018030651/http://home.hia.no/~stephens/vo2max.htm

It's useful about all training topics!

 

[acoggan]

Protocol certainly dictates results, as X-Country skiing has traditionally been seen as recruiting more muscle mass therefore increasing peak VO2 values in comparison to legs-only testing.

VO2max is primarily limited by maximal cardiac output (convective O2 delivery), and hence is independent of recruited muscle mass. This is demonstrated by, e.g., the fact that adding arm cranking to uphill treadmill running does not increase a person's highest attainable VO2.

When allometric scaling is used to correct for differences in body size, the VO2max of elite endurance athletes is similar across running, cycling, CX skiing, rowing, etc.

 

[acoggan]

what was the sampling rate? Were they going breath-by-breath or 8 second average?

IMO (and that of others with whom I've had the pleasure of working), VO2max should be expressed as the average of the highest (consecutive) value(s) measured over a full minute (since it is routinely reported per minute, not, e.g., per second).

 

[eyemgh]

Andy, good to see you in the clinic.

M

 

[ToreBear]

IMO (and that of others with whom I've had the pleasure of working), VO2max should be expressed as the average of the highest (consecutive) value(s) measured over a full minute (since it is routinely reported per minute, not, e.g., per second).

In your opinion could these results be real? Or might they be the result of som strange Norwegian measurment standard?

 

[workingclasshero]

If I'd admin'd that test - I'd be checking my analyser. The equipment may calibrate correctly but the analyser may be way off - and this gets worse the higher up the O2 scale you're going.

In the newspaper article where the score was first publicly known the tester says they did take the equipment for a check after the score. Don't know about whether they took every little piece mind.

Also, what was the sampling rate? Were they going breath-by-breath or 8 second average? These things are important as when the athlete takes the score, they will always take the absolute highest number on the data - even if it's an outlier. Everyone wants their VO2max to be as high as possible

what i do know is that the olympic centre standard is the average of the two highest 30 sec measurements.

now, this cyclist was not tested at the same place but normally I'd expect them to follow the same protocol.

I'd take such reports with a pinch of salt.

same here, very much so. Something's not quite right.

IMO (and that of others with whom I've had the pleasure of working), VO2max should be expressed as the average of the highest (consecutive) value(s) measured over a full minute (since it is routinely reported per minute, not, e.g., per second).

I agree with this.

As for the one who stated the bit about Norwegians having so many of the highest known scores -this may be part down to the 30 sec average used

+ the fact that Norwegians endurance athletes normally will be found in xc skiing, where I believe you can go closer to vo2 max for big chunks of a race than in for instance running. (this due to them getting rest downhill, like a cyclist, but with much shorter hills)

+ norwegians are obsessed with vo2max scores

 

[meandmygitane]

In the newspaper article where the score was first publicly known the tester says they did take the equipment for a check after the score. Don't know about whether they took every little piece mind.

They took it to another Norwegian Institute; maybe Olympiatoppen is the source of the wrong calibrations?

I think Espen Harald Bjerke who also scored 96 ml/kg was tested at Lillehammer and then the same year he measured 86 and 91..

http://fasterskier.com/2005/10/hofstad-closing-in-on-the-vo2-max-record/
How did he fare in the world cup of cross-country skiing? Not nearly as good as his VO2-max results would have indicated.


PS. A interesting post here

 

[ToreBear]

@workingclasshero

Good explanaition for me.

30 sec average measurement points to different testing standard.

+ an unknown X factor.


I hope the X factor is not something sinister like doping.

 

[workingclasshero]

They took it to another Norwegian Institute; maybe Olympiatoppen is the source of the wrong calibrations?

I think Espen Harald Bjerke who also scored 96 ml/kg was tested at Lillehammer and then the same year he measured 86 and 91..

While having a chat with the head of testing at the olympic centre I mentioned a mate of mine's vo2max and he was most eager to know which lab he'd been tested at (it was in norway).

Feel free to read between the lines there. I didn't at the time, but perhaps it suggests the people at the olympic centre think something might be off with some of the results at one or more other labs?

 

[ToreBear]

They took it to another Norwegian Institute; maybe Olympiatoppen is the source of the wrong calibrations?

I think Espen Harald Bjerke who also scored 96 ml/kg was tested at Lillehammer and then the same year he measured 86 and 91..

http://fasterskier.com/2005/10/hofstad-closing-in-on-the-vo2-max-record/
How did he fare in the world cup of cross-country skiing? Not nearly as good as his VO2-max results would have indicated.


PS. A interesting post here

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.h...=result&bt=next&limit=100&bt=prev&rec_start=0

He seems to be B team material. Last world cup appearence was in 2010. Could be many reasons he hasn't taken a further step.

Though I don't think vo2max is that important in XC skiing. I think those at the very top are limited in other areas. The link Animal provided contains further links with info about the physiology of xc skiing. That material is pretty old, and might need updating since the course designs over the last 10 years have reduced the effect of having a big engine IMHO.

But I'm no expert, so it's just my uneducated impression.

 

[ToreBear]

While having a chat with the head of testing at the olympic centre I mentioned a mate of mine's vo2max and he was most eager to know which lab he'd been tested at (it was in norway).

Feel free to read between the lines there. I didn't at the time, but perhaps it suggests the people at the olympic centre think something might be off with some of the other labs?

Ah, i guess the standards are a bit variable

 

[Krebs cycle]

Heres a link with contact info for the tester:
http://www.hil.no/om_hoegskolen/alle_ansatte_ved_hoegskolen_i_lillehammer_hil/Joar-Hansen

Link to the lab:
http://www.hil.no/forskning/Idrettsfysiologisk-testlaboratorium_

In Norwegian so use translator as neccesarry.


If you know about these kinds of tests you could just send him an email and ask about the protocol used.

That's if your interested ofcourse.

From the photo of the blonde girl it looks like they are using a mixing chamber system. This type of system can and should be able to generate highly accurate VO2 measurements but there are a couple of potential sources of error that can influence results. Like acoggan said, the convention for expressing VO2max is to take the highest value that occurs for a full minute. If you used a 15sec sample periods then you can easily get a single value well above the true VO2max because there is a lag between ventilation and the appropriate mixed expired gas concentrations. ie: a sudden increase in ventilation will temporarily overestimate the VO2 if a short sample period is used because the mixed expired gas fractions haven't had time to "catch up" to the increase in Ve.

I know Stephen Seiler and Jostein Hallan so maybe I'll send those guys an email to get their thoughts.

 

[ToreBear]

From the photo of the blonde girl it looks like they are using a mixing chamber system. This type of system can and should be able to generate highly accurate VO2 measurements but there are a couple of potential sources of error that can influence results. Like acoggan said, the convention for expressing VO2max is to take the highest value that occurs for a full minute. If you used a 15sec sample periods then you can easily get a single value well above the true VO2max because there is a lag between ventilation and the appropriate mixed expired gas concentrations. ie: a sudden increase in ventilation will temporarily overestimate the VO2 if a short sample period is used because the mixed expired gas fractions haven't had time to "catch up" to the increase in Ve.

I know Stephen Seiler and Jostein Hallan so maybe I'll send those guys an email to get their thoughts.

Don't forget to post back here if you get any new information.