Maybe the US public will realise that it's not a cycling problem

[boalio]

From the New York Times -

Ortiz and Ramirez Said to Be on 2003 Doping List

Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz, the sluggers who propelled the
Boston Red Sox to end an 86-year World Series championship
drought and to capture another title three years later, were
among the roughly 100 Major League Baseball players to test
positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003, according
to lawyers with knowledge of the results.

Cycling is seen by so many people as a 'dirty' sport, but it's probably the fact that it is so vocal about cleaning up itself, that it then is seen as dirty.

Maybe the general public, who love to say things like "they're all on drugs" whenever you mention pro cycling, will realise it's a sports problem, not a cycling problem.

 

[boalio]

The government hopes to question every player on the list to determine where the drugs came from.

Maybe this will be baseball's Festina affair.

 

[TRDean]

Maybe this will be baseball's Festina affair.

Doubt it...we here in the US have been going through this for years in baseball!!! You hit the nail on the head regarding US perception about all cyclists doping...however, in baseball and football I really don't think the public cares. Heck, in the NFL a couple years ago a defensive player got caught taking steroids...did a 4 game suspension...came back and was almost rewarded with defensive player of the year award. Pretty amazing.

One thing that these sports (and I can only comment on the US sports) have is huge PR machines that try to alter perspectives!! Cycling does not have this and it shows!

 

[mistahsinclair]

From the New York Times -



Cycling is seen by so many people as a 'dirty' sport, but it's probably the fact that it is so vocal about cleaning up itself, that it then is seen as dirty.

Maybe the general public, who love to say things like "they're all on drugs" whenever you mention pro cycling, will realise it's a sports problem, not a cycling problem.

I don't think it's likely that public opinion is going to change. It may boil down to the fact that cyclists are always referred to as "doping" rather than "performance enhancing drugs". The word doping has severe negative connotations to it, but "steroid abuse" sounds like you've taken too much of the meds you were given for a serious cold!

There is also too much money in other sports, as compared with cycling, for the sponsors to allow it to become an issue.

Other sports would need to start taking a hard line against it (assuming cycling really IS taking a hard line, some would argue it's not) and ban or fine athletes. I understand that swimmers and track runners have been banned, but I mean main stream sports (Baseball, etc) would need to take the lead.

A comparison between cyclists and baseball players could be drawn.

Jan Ullrich is a big name cyclist who was exorcised due to doping allegations (wasn't caught and didn't admit to doping). He was banned from participation in some events and ultimately forced to retire. His salary was reported to be 340,000 euros (some cyclists found guilty are forced to repay salary, hence the mention of it).

Alex Rodriquez is a big star in baseball. He admitted to using steroids, although did say he wasn't sure they helped his performance. To date there hasn't been anything done about his mistakes. He has averaged a salary of $16.4m over the last 14 years.

Does the general public consider baseball to be a dirty, dope-filled, sport? No.

Cycling has been labelled in the US and I don't think that will change anytime soon.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I don't think it is just a problem in the US.

In Europe as well, doping suspensions in other major sports seems to be... ignored. With the exception of the Juventus Turin trial, football and doping never meet, except for the odd case of nandrolone or cocaine. Same for tennis, or even natation (What was the number or records broke last year? several dozens?).

When the case of football arises, you'll often hear that doping won't turn an average joe into Zidane. (Race horses out of...). True, dribbling can't be enhanced by PED. What people seem to miss is that pro football is not just about being talented, but being talented 80 times a year. Not to mention how the physical standards have increased: Games from 20 years ago were definitely slower and less intense. Right now people playing football are sometimes more athletes than footballers (especially true for defensive midfielders and lateral defensemen).

I do not see how the situation could be any different in the USA. Baseball is 162 matches a year, even though you could argue the effort intensity is not the same. Basket and hockey (one of the toughest team sports!) are 80+ games a year. American football has less games a year but the contacts are so violent players have to wear extensive protection. The pro leagues for these sports have long had non existing doping policies (not even one just for PR), and the youth categories, while different from Europe, do not seem to deter any doping (stakes are even probably higher, as the NCAA and others are broadcasted nationally).

It has already been said that Operation Puerto also uncovered athletes from other sports, but that the public decided to ignore it.

Singling cyclism is a good way to avoir questioning the logic of all modern pro sports, which is a major factor IMHO in the doping pressure. The average number of games played per year has skyrocketed in football, because more games means more broadcast and more revenue for all. The health of the athletes is barely a consideration in all this.

Sport is not just a spectacle. By ignoring this, the audience (us) is doing more harm than good.

 

[runninboy]

Doubt it...we here in the US have been going through this for years in baseball!!! You hit the nail on the head regarding US perception about all cyclists doping...however, in baseball and football I really don't think the public cares.
QUOTE]

I think the problem is that the sportswriters refuse to take a serious position.
It is well known that there are over 200 major leaguers with TUE's for ADD up from 20 something just a few years previous.
Thank goodness they got properly diagnosed and can now get treatment with drugs that would have been PED's without the proper paperwork!

Even Manny Ramirez's recent suspension was a joke, a WADA rep was quoted as saying somehing like its too bad because since he did have a prescription all he needed was to file the paperwork on time to avoid the suspension.

When i was running only the healthiest athletes reached the pinnacle of the sport. Kind of a prerequisite. Sure a few exceptions, but by and large, healthy.
Now a great percentage are taking medications for a "condition", and those meds just happen to correspond to PED's for their particular event.
Sprinters get drugs that enhance speed & power
distance runners get drugs that enhance endurance.
what a coincidence!

The minute the "up close & personal" segment on Michael Phelps revealed his ADD i thought "oh crap here we go again".

And yet not One interviewer asked "what medication to you take to treat your ADD?"

I am proud that people like Lemond & Kimmage have the guts to be unpopular but are in fact performing a public service.

 

[TRDean]

Doubt it...we here in the US have been going through this for years in baseball!!! You hit the nail on the head regarding US perception about all cyclists doping...however, in baseball and football I really don't think the public cares.
QUOTE]

I think the problem is that the sportswriters refuse to take a serious position.
It is well known that there are over 200 major leaguers with TUE's for ADD up from 20 something just a few years previous.
Thank goodness they got properly diagnosed and can now get treatment with drugs that would have been PED's without the proper paperwork!

Even Manny Ramirez's recent suspension was a joke, a WADA rep was quoted as saying somehing like its too bad because since he did have a prescription all he needed was to file the paperwork on time to avoid the suspension.

When i was running only the healthiest athletes reached the pinnacle of the sport. Kind of a prerequisite. Sure a few exceptions, but by and large, healthy.
Now a great percentage are taking medications for a "condition", and those meds just happen to correspond to PED's for their particular event.
Sprinters get drugs that enhance speed & power
distance runners get drugs that enhance endurance.
what a coincidence!

The minute the "up close & personal" segment on Michael Phelps revealed his ADD i thought "oh crap here we go again".

And yet not One interviewer asked "what medication to you take to treat your ADD?"

I am proud that people like Lemond & Kimmage have the guts to be unpopular but are in fact performing a public service.

Excellent points!!! Agree throughout.

 

[runninboy]

Oh i almost forgot, some credit should be given to NBA player Chris Kaman, who went public with his misdiagnosis of ADD. Apparently he was diagnosed while at 13, and started taking meds that were counter productive to his health, but good for basketball.
Luckily he signed a big contract before changing his meds, because his statistics have dropped drastically since then.

 

[TRDean]

Oh i almost forgot, some credit should be given to NBA player Chris Kaman, who went public with his misdiagnosis of ADD. Apparently he was diagnosed while at 13, and started taking meds that were counter productive to his health, but good for basketball.
Luckily he signed a big contract before changing his meds, because his statistics have dropped drastically since then.

What ADD meds are we talking about?

 

[psychlist]

Doubt it...we here in the US have been going through this for years in baseball!!! You hit the nail on the head regarding US perception about all cyclists doping...however, in baseball and football I really don't think the public cares. Heck, in the NFL a couple years ago a defensive player got caught taking steroids...did a 4 game suspension...came back and was almost rewarded with defensive player of the year award. Pretty amazing.

One thing that these sports (and I can only comment on the US sports) have is huge PR machines that try to alter perspectives!! Cycling does not have this and it shows!

This is too true. It seems that the American public only cares about athletes who use drugs if they lie about it, (Mark Mcgwire, Rafael Paleiro, Marion Jones), or if they deny it and are A-holes, (Barry Bonds).

If you come clean and say it's all in the past the public seems willing to forgive and forget (Alex Rodriguez).

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

The average number of games played per year has skyrocketed in football, because more games means more broadcast and more revenue for all. The health of the athletes is barely a consideration in all this. Sport is not just a spectacle. By ignoring this, the audience (us) is doing more harm than good.

.....and this pressure to compete more often must be particularly high in cycling, where earnings are much smaller.

Speaking of which, does anyone know off the top of their heads if cycling vs football viewer ratings explain this massive difference in athlete earnings? Couldn't find anything on this quickly on the net.

Probably seems like a *** question, but data on how many people watch particular sports on TV in Europe is not common knowledge in NZ.

 

[ladyvader]

I think cycling is doing more to clean up their sport than any of the major sport in America. The MLB union was nothing but an enabler for years and still is to a degree, same with NFL. I will give the NFL this...they saw there was a problem in the 80's and sorta dealt with it but didn't go far enough.

Which sport in America test their players with blood and hair samples? NONE. Their unions won't allow it. Ever wonder why???? More and more people would get caught.

If MLB wants to nickel and dime outing their dirty players that's fine, but it makes their league look stupid.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Slightly off topic here, but the tennis authorities have almost rolled out a red carpet for anyone wishing to dope:

10 years ago tennis players themselves were voicing concerns about blood doping for EPO and HGH in tennis - http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/tennis-courier-reveals-blooddoping-fears-1075149.html

yet last year - a decade later:

- there were only 20 EPO tests condicted the entire year amongst all professional tennis players.

- There were only 157 blood tests during competition.

In the off season there were ZERO blood tests and ZERO tests for EPO.

http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_39989_original.PDF

And yet still Nadal and Murray are whining - http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/feb/06/andy-murray-drugs-tennis
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/wimbledon/article683107.ece

And yet when a skinny rake of a player like Murray emerges from the winter with a body like an extra from Conan the Barbarian commentators acclaim his hard work on the fitness aspect of the game, and Murray himself puts it down to bikram yoga and eating sushi.

It is farcical.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

.....and this pressure to compete more often must be particularly high in cycling, where earnings are much smaller.

Speaking of which, does anyone know off the top of their heads if cycling vs football viewer ratings explain this massive difference in athlete earnings? Couldn't find anything on this quickly on the net.

Probably seems like a *** question, but data on how many people watch particular sports on TV in Europe is not common knowledge in NZ.

There's just so much more money in football...
France 2 payed TdF rights 23 millions Euros this year and will pay this much up until 2013 (slighty increased sum each year).
The LFP (Football) managed to negociate the rights for 600m per year. French football did get a better deal than most other stronger european leagues but still. On top of that, the Champions League and the National Team are sold on their own for some more millions. Plus sponsor money, merchandising and stadium revenue.

Football turned pro much earlier than many other sports (track & field, swimming, rugby...) so that also explains why the players (or a part of them) get a better share of the money. I do not think pro cyclists sees much of the TV money.

I'm not sure of European viewership but can give you some rough number for France.
(Note: French population is slighty above 60m people)
TdF in France has an audience of roughly 3,5m on average, with traditional peaks for some moutains stages (almost 5m viewers at best). It's pretty good, and above the audience of the French Premier League, but concentrated in July, while the football season spans on 11 months, with 2 to 3 games a week.
Also in France the, league games are broadcasted by a private channel you can get on subscription. And all matches are available via pay-per-view services, so I do not know how many viewers you have when you had all the games available.
Champion's League biggest games can attract up to 7m people. Important games with the national team can go as far as 20m people hooked on TV.

It seems the 2009 TdF was pretty successful: Best TV audience since 2005. 3,8m on average. Internet coverage getting strong with streaming, maybe not included.
TdF best year was 1997, probably because of Richard Virenque 2nd place. 5,1m on average.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think baseball in the USA has shown it's almost as dirty as cycling, maybe more. I'm also convinced that the "steroid era" isn't over, at all. Manny Ramirez is likely in the majority, and just now dumb enough to get caught.

A local sportswriter said the same thing as I did pretty much. He was one of the only ones. He got a mix of reaction. Read his article here.

Cycling does get flack because it is dirty, and doping has given it large gains. But same with MLB. Nobody really thinks all those NFL linemen got that way eating Met-RX bars. Just as there is no way footballers in FIFA could sprint back and forth all night across the pitch 80 days a year like they do. And no way Barry Bonds hits that many HR's with the 185lb body God gave him. He added 35lbs of pure muscle after the age of 32! Ramirez, Ortiz, A-Roid, etc. they were all dirty, and probably still are dirty.

Agree with French Guy. Football (soccer), Tennis, NFL, Hockey, etc. Even golf likely has some guys on steroids. Gary Player said he knew for a fact at least a couple of them were.

We're talking about sports with millions of dollars at stake. Millions. And if you're not at all likely to get caught... Remember that in Tennis, athletes can actually refuse at least one test every few months! You can simply tell the tester "not today, thank you". You think Tennis is bad Mongol, Golf has NO testing! None!

People need to watch Bigger, Stronger, Faster. Free if you have a Netflix account. you can stream it to your computer right now.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

.......It is farcical.

Mongol -another article related to tennis -

http://www.slate.com/id/2221980/?from=rss&obref=obinsite Tennis article

My favourite quote is "It may be that tennis is not conducive to EPO," says the ITF's Miller. ....Miller is the head of anti-doping in tennis!

 

[psychlist]

Topical

From today's New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/sports/baseball/31rivalry.html?_r=1&hp

 

[gjdavis60]

This is too true. It seems that the American public only cares about athletes who use drugs if they lie about it, (Mark Mcgwire, Rafael Paleiro, Marion Jones), or if they deny it and are A-holes, (Barry Bonds).

If you come clean and say it's all in the past the public seems willing to forgive and forget (Alex Rodriguez).

Well, I'm not sure what the American public cares about, but the American justice system certainly doesn't like it when you lie to one of its agents or to the court. Ms. Jones wasn't jailed for doping, she was put away for lying (and for fraud, I believe). Mr. Bonds also faces perjury charges for his testimony in the Balco case, and may be sent to jail if convicted.

If you want these pro athletes to come clean about their PED use, just get 'em in front of a US federal official and ask 'em the question, straight up, because at that moment the penalty for lying is jail whether they doped or not.

I'm surprised this angle hasn't been pursued more aggressively. It's pretty easy to get someone on the stand under oath. We even managed to do it to a sitting president.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

That's an interesting point. But keep in mind that Rafael Palmero, and very likely Roger Clemens, blatantly lied directly to Congress, perjuring themselves. But neither have faced any sort of disciplinary action, legal, sporting, either. Palmero behaved like an arrogant jerk too, and Clemens has been quite self-righteous during it all.

I agree on the mea culpa. It's still wrong, but it sits in everyone's gut better when someone acts like Andy Petitte. I still think if the day Andy held his press conference, Roger would have stood up there as well and said "Like Andy, I'm sorry. I don't think it's fair my name is in the report that many times, and question the accuracy of everything, but I admit I made a mistake and can only apologize to the fans for getting caught up in all this." If he would have just done that, there would have been a stink for a day or two, and then 99% of it would have washed away, water under the bridge.

I've said similar things about the current Rabobank problem. Michael Boogard (and Erik Dekker) is a hero of Dutch cycling. What a fun rider he was to cheer for, even for those of us on this side of the pond. Now, it looks like he's caught up in a big doping mess, both of them are. It might quickly get to a point where they both hold a brief press conference and give a blank apology. The problem is they run into making themselves appear guilty of the forthcoming reports and accusations or even sanctions or charges. But if they do nothing, they may end up like Roger Clemens, or worse. It's a fine line to walk.

 

[gjdavis60]

That's an interesting point. But keep in mind that Rafael Palmero, and very likely Roger Clemens, blatantly lied directly to Congress, perjuring themselves. But neither have faced any sort of disciplinary action, legal, sporting, either. Palmero behaved like an arrogant jerk too, and Clemens has been quite self-righteous during it all.

There is, apparently, an ongoing grand jury investigation into the Clemens perjury case. Seems he could be facing indictment for false testimony before Congress about his use of PEDs. If convicted it won't take a rocket scientist to figure out where he'll be going, and it ain't Cooperstown.

While Congress routinely lies to the American People they get quite angry and vindictive when one of us lies to them.

 

[Anonymous]

Seriously, I would rather take my saddle off my seatpost and go ride trails than to watch a baseball game. And I mean with no lube either.

 

[scribe]

A couple of thoughts regarding the lay-public in America. Most of their cycling news comes from European headlines regarding doping through the years. So the perception owes that to its basis.

Many Americans DO care that baseball and football and track, etc., have been rife with doping. Baseball in particular is full of fans who are connected to the sport's history are in complete disarray because their heros in the past are being written out of the record books by the frauds of today.

 

[quadsRme]

Ok so we've pretty much covered the sports that test for doping and those that don't. How about the U.S. Government testing low level employees but not the senators and the Congressmen, Supreme Court, etc.

To me they are MORE accountable to the citizens of their country than let's say sportsmen/athletes. The gov't employees are shaping the direction of the country. This isn't politics we are talking here.

Those individuals should be tested like the cyclists are and as often. Of course the list of offending drugs would need to be modified a bit.

If this were to happen, testing high ranknig officials in the gov't and businessmen alike, the U.S. public would be astounded as to what is going on in our country.

Sports is for entertainment. They don't necessarily make decisions that affect our lives, except for gambling, fantasy baseball, etc.

just something to think/talk about.........

 

[Deagol]

Not too be nit-picky about the title of this thread, but the “US Public” is not a homogenous body that can be grouped together as having any sort of unified voice/opinion/conviction. I am from the US but probably have more in common with someone from Mars than I do with the majority of Americans. I’m guessing/hoping that there are others within this forum that feel the same way…
I do agree with the basic point, however...

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

Not too be nit-picky about the title of this thread, but the “US Public” is not a homogenous body that can be grouped together as having any sort of unified voice/opinion/conviction. I am from the US but probably have more in common with someone from Mars than I do with the majority of Americans. I’m guessing/hoping that there are others within this forum that feel the same way…
I do agree with the basic point, however...

I do not think the public is the major issue. To some extent, I would agree that some viewers and fans live in a state of blissful (deluded?) naiveté, ignoring the obvious elephant in the room, but the real problem lies with the coverage. The issue of doping in some sports are almost never brought up. Tennis is a good exemple: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoryoping_cases_in_tennis
21 cases only? Wow, those guys must be really clean.

When presented with the truth, as with the Festina scandal, part of the public actually reacts. In some cases everything was quickly forgotten (The Juventus trial did not lead to increased suspicion or rejection from the audience), but sometimes it sticks.

To achieve that, you need to inform them though. Sports reporters are often trying to live the dream too hard, ending up more deluded than the audience.