Mikel Landa Discussion Thread

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All this talk about Valverde declining, stepping a bit down etc. Yes, he will possibly focus more on one week races and Ardennes, but I want to see that happening first. What I also want to see happening before I conclude anything is the fact that he actually has gotten worse. And if he is worse than he was this year, so is the rest of the pelotón bar maybe one or two riders in the world. Yes, Valverde was the best rider in 2017 before he got injured and is a phenomenal athlete. This guy will be back.

Quintana, Valverde, Landa and Soler full genius come Tour de France 2018.
 
Aug 6, 2015
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Valv.Piti said:
All this talk about Valverde declining, stepping a bit down etc. Yes, he will possibly focus more on one week races and Ardennes, but I want to see that happening first. What I also want to see happening before I conclude anything is the fact that he actually has gotten worse. And if he is worse than he was this year, so is the rest of the pelotón bar maybe one or two riders in the world. Yes, Valverde was the best rider in 2017 before he got injured and is a phenomenal athlete. This guy will be back.

Quintana, Valverde, Landa and Soler full genius come Tour de France 2018.
But a new cyborg born in the giro :D and I really think (from what I saw in the 2017 tour) that dumoulin is the best gt rider in the world. Froome isn't able to destroy the field in the mountains anymore. Bar climbing, dumoulin is better than froome in everything (and he will have a better team next year, not as strong as sky obviously)
 
May 3, 2010
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del1962 said:
The thing is Landa should have gone to a team where he can ride the Tour as undisputed leader, he doesn't get this at Movistar unless there is something we don't know about Quintana's intentions
Landa can't possibly think he is riding the tour as an undisputed leader with movistar. After this year's debacle I expect Quintana to focus on the TDF next year as opposed to trying the giro-tour double. That opens the door up to Landa to be undisputed at the Giro. I think that is the best he can hope for and frankly he should be happy with that.
 
Re: Re:

offbyone said:
del1962 said:
The thing is Landa should have gone to a team where he can ride the Tour as undisputed leader, he doesn't get this at Movistar unless there is something we don't know about Quintana's intentions
Landa can't possibly think he is riding the tour as an undisputed leader with movistar. After this year's debacle I expect Quintana to focus on the TDF next year as opposed to trying the giro-tour double. That opens the door up to Landa to be undisputed at the Giro. I think that is the best he can hope for and frankly he should be happy with that.
I think it's better for Landa to go to the giro anyway. Imo all gt leaders should prove themselves in the smaller gt's before they go to the tour as a leader and while Landa has already had great results he hasn't finished a gt as a leader.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Red Rick said:
Landa Giro and Quintana Tour seems all but certain.

The real decision is whether Landa doubles up in the Tour or the Vuelta, especially looking at how good Landa was in the Tour this year. A lot is gonna depend on routes, how the Giro goes though and how Valverde recovers. That could well be a climbing squad that is better than Sky.
Sky has a much better climbing squad than Landa, Quintana and Valverde.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
Red Rick said:
Landa Giro and Quintana Tour seems all but certain.

The real decision is whether Landa doubles up in the Tour or the Vuelta, especially looking at how good Landa was in the Tour this year. A lot is gonna depend on routes, how the Giro goes though and how Valverde recovers. That could well be a climbing squad that is better than Sky.
Sky has a much better climbing squad than Landa, Quintana and Valverde.
No squad is better than that.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Valv.Piti said:
All this talk about Valverde declining, stepping a bit down etc. Yes, he will possibly focus more on one week races and Ardennes, but I want to see that happening first. What I also want to see happening before I conclude anything is the fact that he actually has gotten worse. And if he is worse than he was this year, so is the rest of the pelotón bar maybe one or two riders in the world. Yes, Valverde was the best rider in 2017 before he got injured and is a phenomenal athlete. This guy will be back.

Quintana, Valverde, Landa and Soler full genius come Tour de France 2018.
The field in the Ardennes classics was lackluster, impossible to claim Valverde was the best rider based on those pitiful races. The only guy in that peloton that could've beaten Valverde was positioned like crap for some reason and he still finished third.

As for those one-week races, he only beat Contador, who is clearly past his best (as we saw in the Tour this year). Couldn't challenge for victory at the Dauphiné.

Sagan hasn't had much luck this season, but it's obvious he was the strongest so far, even if the results don't show it.

- Crash in the Ronde van Vlaanderen
- Multiple flat tires in Paris-Roubaix
- Disqualified unjustly in the Tour de France
- Flat tire at the must crucial moment of the race in the Binckbank Tour.

Nobody waits for Sagan when he has bad luck. Climbers on the other hand eat ice cream together at the top of a mountain and cross the finish-line hand in hand singing children songs. They don't even know what the words "attack" or "win" mean.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
Valv.Piti said:
All this talk about Valverde declining, stepping a bit down etc. Yes, he will possibly focus more on one week races and Ardennes, but I want to see that happening first. What I also want to see happening before I conclude anything is the fact that he actually has gotten worse. And if he is worse than he was this year, so is the rest of the pelotón bar maybe one or two riders in the world. Yes, Valverde was the best rider in 2017 before he got injured and is a phenomenal athlete. This guy will be back.

Quintana, Valverde, Landa and Soler full genius come Tour de France 2018.
The field in the Ardennes classics was lackluster, impossible to claim Valverde was the best rider based on those pitiful races. The only guy in that peloton that could've beaten Valverde was positioned like crap for some reason and he still finished third.

As for those one-week races, he only beat Contador, who is clearly past his best (as we saw in the Tour this year). Couldn't challenge for victory at the Dauphiné.

Sagan hasn't had much luck this season, but it's obvious he was the strongest so far, even if the results don't show it.

- Crash in the Ronde van Vlaanderen
- Multiple flat tires in Paris-Roubaix
- Disqualified unjustly in the Tour de France
- Flat tire at the must crucial moment of the race in the Binckbank Tour.

Nobody waits for Sagan when he has bad luck. Climbers on the other hand eat ice cream together at the top of a mountain and cross the finish-line hand in hand singing children songs. They don't even know what the words "attack" or "win" mean.
Just continue your blatant trolling, i take great pleasure reading your nonsense!
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
Valv.Piti said:
All this talk about Valverde declining, stepping a bit down etc. Yes, he will possibly focus more on one week races and Ardennes, but I want to see that happening first. What I also want to see happening before I conclude anything is the fact that he actually has gotten worse. And if he is worse than he was this year, so is the rest of the pelotón bar maybe one or two riders in the world. Yes, Valverde was the best rider in 2017 before he got injured and is a phenomenal athlete. This guy will be back.

Quintana, Valverde, Landa and Soler full genius come Tour de France 2018.
The field in the Ardennes classics was lackluster, impossible to claim Valverde was the best rider based on those pitiful races. The only guy in that peloton that could've beaten Valverde was positioned like crap for some reason and he still finished third.

As for those one-week races, he only beat Contador, who is clearly past his best (as we saw in the Tour this year). Couldn't challenge for victory at the Dauphiné.

Sagan hasn't had much luck this season, but it's obvious he was the strongest so far, even if the results don't show it.

- Crash in the Ronde van Vlaanderen
- Multiple flat tires in Paris-Roubaix
- Disqualified unjustly in the Tour de France
- Flat tire at the must crucial moment of the race in the Binckbank Tour.

Nobody waits for Sagan when he has bad luck. Climbers on the other hand eat ice cream together at the top of a mountain and cross the finish-line hand in hand singing children songs. They don't even know what the words "attack" or "win" mean.
Obvious is obvious :lol:
 
Jul 16, 2010
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burning said:
http://www.procyclingstats.com/rankings.php?id=3513&code=pcs-ranking-races&id=8410

The field of cobbled classics are consistently weaker than the Ardennes, yet the cobble fetishists always claim that the field is the strongest in these races. Also, a 35 year old hilly classics rider did a 55km solo after a 40km attack against this crazy strong field.
Gilbert rides all the classics, but he somehow is a hilly classics rider? Lol.

And procyclingstats is a flawed ranking. Cycling is too complex to quantify, so people shouldn't base their arguments on it. Unless you actually believe it's harder or more prestigious to win Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne than Paris-Roubaix.

There are far more races with mountains and hills in cycling than there are races with cobblestones, hence the rankings are skewed in favor of climbers. Someone like Caruso earned 201 points for his showing in the Tour. If I didn't look it up I wouldn't have known he was in this year's Tour. Stybar on the other hand got less points for placing second in Paris-Roubaix. Cyclists who are active in cobblestone classics often ride as domestiques in Grand Tours and domestiques can't earn points in those rankings despite working their butts off.



But sure, keep using those rankings. :lol:

If a 36 year old can win the biggest prizes in cycling (or any other sport where physical strength plays an important role) it means the competition sucks. Just look at the 100 meter dash at the WC Athletics. The winning time wouldn't have been good enough for a medal at the WC in 2009. Justin Gatlin would have been fifth with a time like that at the London Olympics. Bolt was too busy partying (as recent news reports have shown) and didn't train enough or he would've won easily.

It's a fact that the biggest rivals of Valverde were injured or didn't care for the Ardennes classics. Gilbert, Alaphilippe, Chaves, Nibali, Dumoulin, etc.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
burning said:
http://www.procyclingstats.com/rankings.php?id=3513&code=pcs-ranking-races&id=8410

The field of cobbled classics are consistently weaker than the Ardennes, yet the cobble fetishists always claim that the field is the strongest in these races. Also, a 35 year old hilly classics rider did a 55km solo after a 40km attack against this crazy strong field.
Gilbert rides all the classics, but he somehow is a hilly classics rider? Lol.

And procyclingstats is a flawed ranking. Cycling is too complex to quantify, so people shouldn't base their arguments on it. Unless you actually believe it's harder or more prestigious to win Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne than Paris-Roubaix.

There are far more races with mountains and hills in cycling than there are races with cobblestones, hence the rankings are skewed in favor of climbers. Someone like Caruso earned 201 points for his showing in the Tour. If I didn't look it up I wouldn't have known he was in this year's Tour. Stybar on the other hand got less points for placing second in Paris-Roubaix. Cyclists who are active in cobblestone classics often ride as domestiques in Grand Tours and domestiques can't earn points in those rankings despite working their butts off.

But sure, keep using those rankings. :lol:
95%+ of Gilbert's wins are on hilly courses, one win in Ronde doesn't change that.

Half of the teams send throwaway teams to cobbled races and most of them ride as domestiques around the year because they are not good enough apart from 4-5 days, it is pretty simple. Also, there is a reason why the Ardennes races are boring, you simply can not get away until last few km's as the field is just way stronger than cobbled races.
 
Re: Re:

burning said:
El Pistolero said:
burning said:
http://www.procyclingstats.com/rankings.php?id=3513&code=pcs-ranking-races&id=8410

The field of cobbled classics are consistently weaker than the Ardennes, yet the cobble fetishists always claim that the field is the strongest in these races. Also, a 35 year old hilly classics rider did a 55km solo after a 40km attack against this crazy strong field.
Gilbert rides all the classics, but he somehow is a hilly classics rider? Lol.

And procyclingstats is a flawed ranking. Cycling is too complex to quantify, so people shouldn't base their arguments on it. Unless you actually believe it's harder or more prestigious to win Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne than Paris-Roubaix.

There are far more races with mountains and hills in cycling than there are races with cobblestones, hence the rankings are skewed in favor of climbers. Someone like Caruso earned 201 points for his showing in the Tour. If I didn't look it up I wouldn't have known he was in this year's Tour. Stybar on the other hand got less points for placing second in Paris-Roubaix. Cyclists who are active in cobblestone classics often ride as domestiques in Grand Tours and domestiques can't earn points in those rankings despite working their butts off.

But sure, keep using those rankings. :lol:
95%+ of Gilbert's wins are on hilly courses, one win in Ronde doesn't change that.

Half of the teams send throwaway teams to cobbled races and most of them ride as domestiques around the year because they are not good enough apart from 4-5 days, it is pretty simple. Also, there is a reason why the Ardennes races are boring, you simply can not get away until last few km's as the field is just way stronger than cobbled races.

Doesn't mean the cobbled classics are weak. It means they're very specific. The Ardennes classics are a lot more aspecific, except for being little more than uphill sprints in the last few years
 
I think riders like Sagan, Avermaet, Boonen, Cance etc. generally are better than the hilly specialists, but not by as much as Pisti makes it sound. Its more pure racing and those guys can also dominate many other races compared to one tricks like Vanmarcke. But lets not forget some of the absolute best riders present like Kwito and Valverde, Dan Martin to some extent, Alaphilippe even, they are no scrubs at all.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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burning said:
El Pistolero said:
burning said:
http://www.procyclingstats.com/rankings.php?id=3513&code=pcs-ranking-races&id=8410

The field of cobbled classics are consistently weaker than the Ardennes, yet the cobble fetishists always claim that the field is the strongest in these races. Also, a 35 year old hilly classics rider did a 55km solo after a 40km attack against this crazy strong field.
Gilbert rides all the classics, but he somehow is a hilly classics rider? Lol.

And procyclingstats is a flawed ranking. Cycling is too complex to quantify, so people shouldn't base their arguments on it. Unless you actually believe it's harder or more prestigious to win Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne than Paris-Roubaix.

There are far more races with mountains and hills in cycling than there are races with cobblestones, hence the rankings are skewed in favor of climbers. Someone like Caruso earned 201 points for his showing in the Tour. If I didn't look it up I wouldn't have known he was in this year's Tour. Stybar on the other hand got less points for placing second in Paris-Roubaix. Cyclists who are active in cobblestone classics often ride as domestiques in Grand Tours and domestiques can't earn points in those rankings despite working their butts off.

But sure, keep using those rankings. :lol:
95%+ of Gilbert's wins are on hilly courses, one win in Ronde doesn't change that.

Half of the teams send throwaway teams to cobbled races and most of them ride as domestiques around the year because they are not good enough apart from 4-5 days, it is pretty simple. Also, there is a reason why the Ardennes races are boring, you simply can not get away until last few km's as the field is just way stronger than cobbled races.
He's been more on the podium in the Ronde than LBL.

The real reason why it's easier to get away in the cobblestone classics is because the roads are narrow with many twists and bends. The roads in LBL are mostly wide and there aren't as many twists or bends which means everything gets back together most of the time. The surface of the road is also in far better condition than in a cobblestone classic.

Hold LBL on narrow roads with many twists and bends and it will become a far more entertaining race, even with the same peloton.

The AGR, which has an almost identical field to LBL, did see a small group ride away and it ended in a two-man sprint. You know why? Because the roads are narrow and there are many twists and bends. It actually has more in common with the cobblestone classics than the Ardennes classics, at least in its current format with the finish so far away from the Cauberg.

Do you even know anything about cycling? You're on a cycling forum, this should be common knowledge.
 
It really depends on which of the such Classics we're talking anyhow. Obviously in the main we're comparing the real élite groups of races, RVV/Roubaix as opposed to Liège and Flèche.

I'd also say that essentially by 'hilly Classics' Pisti is essentially meaning the Ardennes and other murito finishes because Lombardia isn't a race that comes down to the last few kilometres every time, as top level wins in recent years like those of Nibali, Bettini and Gilbert attest. Of course, Zaugg and Rodríguez also won solo but Pisti will deride those because the final climb was the decisive one even if J-Rod had been attacking earlier to earn the right to be well-placed on that final climb. But that's by the by. A thing with the cobbles as compared to the Ardennes is that chance takes a bigger part in thinning the field in the cobbles, and that is, crucially, one of the better things about them. The number of reasons for a favourite to be waylaid a long way from the finish due to being held up by an incident, a puncture or just the field breaking up and being suboptimally placed on a very narrow stretch are much greater on the narrow roads and cobbled stretches whereas in the Ardennes, unfortunately quite often placement is only key from an attrition point of view until quite late on. As a result of a lot of these tight, narrow sections and the greater risk of being held up behind incidents (especially important in flat cobbled races like Roubaix because there's no recovery section to win that time back), the advantages to the strongest riders of being at the front, and in smaller groups than a full péloton (where there will always be a squabble to get the good positions ahead of the most difficult sectors, hence the pace has to be high to protect those positions), are greater than in the Ardennes where the favourites might explore others' legs a bit in the last few climbs, but ultimately don't want to show their cards early. And also, while you may deride the quality of the contenders for the actual win, the depth of domestiques is often superior in the Ardennes due to a more wide base of specialisms that are adaptable across more of the calendar, so escaping the clutches of the péloton is often harder to the point where most A-list contenders rarely try.

But really, this thread is about Mikel Landa, who has shown precious little skills adapted to either sets of classics and has been hired based on his stage racing credentials, so apart from Pistolet wanting to do his "guess who's back?" Eminem routine I don't see what value this conversation has to the thread.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
burning said:
http://www.procyclingstats.com/rankings.php?id=3513&code=pcs-ranking-races&id=8410

The field of cobbled classics are consistently weaker than the Ardennes, yet the cobble fetishists always claim that the field is the strongest in these races. Also, a 35 year old hilly classics rider did a 55km solo after a 40km attack against this crazy strong field.
Gilbert rides all the classics, but he somehow is a hilly classics rider? Lol.

And procyclingstats is a flawed ranking. Cycling is too complex to quantify, so people shouldn't base their arguments on it. Unless you actually believe it's harder or more prestigious to win Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne than Paris-Roubaix.

There are far more races with mountains and hills in cycling than there are races with cobblestones, hence the rankings are skewed in favor of climbers. Someone like Caruso earned 201 points for his showing in the Tour. If I didn't look it up I wouldn't have known he was in this year's Tour. Stybar on the other hand got less points for placing second in Paris-Roubaix. Cyclists who are active in cobblestone classics often ride as domestiques in Grand Tours and domestiques can't earn points in those rankings despite working their butts off.



But sure, keep using those rankings. :lol:

If a 36 year old can win the biggest prizes in cycling (or any other sport where physical strength plays an important role) it means the competition sucks. Just look at the 100 meter dash at the WC Athletics. The winning time wouldn't have been good enough for a medal at the WC in 2009. Justin Gatlin would have been fifth with a time like that at the London Olympics. Bolt was too busy partying (as recent news reports have shown) and didn't train enough or he would've won easily.

It's a fact that the biggest rivals of Valverde were injured or didn't care for the Ardennes classics. Gilbert, Alaphilippe, Chaves, Nibali, Dumoulin, etc.
Stybar, wow! What a rider! He has aprox. same amount of wins in his career as Valverde had till late April this year :lol: And there a reason why cobblestone riders don't have much points, they don't worth *** outside cobbles!
 
Re:

KyoGrey said:
Don't discard Quintana leaving Movistar for Astaná.

Either way, Landa is going to have sole leadership in Giro/Tour and other races he was demanding, as recorded in some radio interviews before the Vuelta a Burgos.

Let's not forget that even last year he had to share his leadership in the Giro with Geraint Thomas. So this is a step forward in that sense.


The only black spot in this decision is the clash between Landa's attacking style and Unzue's conservative traits. Let's hope that Mikel holds his own.
Depends, remember Abarcá were left with an either/or choice between Olano and Jiménez, and chose Chava, who is very much the antithesis of conservative cycling. Maybe Chava was more Echavarrí's guy than Unzué's, but they stood by him through a lot.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
But really, this thread is about Mikel Landa, who has shown precious little skills adapted to either sets of classics and has been hired based on his stage racing credentials, so apart from Pistolet wanting to do his "guess who's back?" Eminem routine I don't see what value this conversation has to the thread.
What's there to say about Landa though? If he rides the Giro next year he'll likely mess up like he always does and if he rides the Tour he will play domestique despite being the strongest of the team.

Movistar will always chose Quintana or Valverde over Landa.

He really should have ignored team orders in the Giro of 2015 or this year's Tour.

Or gone to a team where he's undisputed leader.
 
I think the main reason for cobbled classics being so exciting is that the most selective parts are such high intensity and so short that you have more that one bullet in your gun. And the repetition of such super high intensity effort makes gaps in ability bigger than the constant tempo riding of LBL, which seems to dull differences more than create them.

And yes, let's get back to Landa.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Blanco said:
El Pistolero said:
burning said:
http://www.procyclingstats.com/rankings.php?id=3513&code=pcs-ranking-races&id=8410

The field of cobbled classics are consistently weaker than the Ardennes, yet the cobble fetishists always claim that the field is the strongest in these races. Also, a 35 year old hilly classics rider did a 55km solo after a 40km attack against this crazy strong field.
Gilbert rides all the classics, but he somehow is a hilly classics rider? Lol.

And procyclingstats is a flawed ranking. Cycling is too complex to quantify, so people shouldn't base their arguments on it. Unless you actually believe it's harder or more prestigious to win Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne than Paris-Roubaix.

There are far more races with mountains and hills in cycling than there are races with cobblestones, hence the rankings are skewed in favor of climbers. Someone like Caruso earned 201 points for his showing in the Tour. If I didn't look it up I wouldn't have known he was in this year's Tour. Stybar on the other hand got less points for placing second in Paris-Roubaix. Cyclists who are active in cobblestone classics often ride as domestiques in Grand Tours and domestiques can't earn points in those rankings despite working their butts off.



But sure, keep using those rankings. :lol:

If a 36 year old can win the biggest prizes in cycling (or any other sport where physical strength plays an important role) it means the competition sucks. Just look at the 100 meter dash at the WC Athletics. The winning time wouldn't have been good enough for a medal at the WC in 2009. Justin Gatlin would have been fifth with a time like that at the London Olympics. Bolt was too busy partying (as recent news reports have shown) and didn't train enough or he would've won easily.

It's a fact that the biggest rivals of Valverde were injured or didn't care for the Ardennes classics. Gilbert, Alaphilippe, Chaves, Nibali, Dumoulin, etc.
Stybar, wow! What a rider! He has aprox. same amount of wins in his career as Valverde had till late April this year :lol: And there a reason why cobblestone riders don't have much points, they don't worth **** outside cobbles!








 
Blanco, I take it you aren't including CX, and if not why not?

Pisti, if there's nothing to say about Landa, the thread can be allowed to peter out, and you'll get better discussion of your arguments on the relative merits of the northern Classics as against the Ardennes Classics in a thread better suited to it, surely?
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
Blanco, I take it you aren't including CX, and if not why not?

Pisti, if there's nothing to say about Landa, the thread can be allowed to peter out, and you'll get better discussion of your arguments on the relative merits of the northern Classics as against the Ardennes Classics in a thread better suited to it, surely?
I question his decision to go to Movistar, that's worth discussing.
 
Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
Blanco, I take it you aren't including CX, and if not why not?

Pisti, if there's nothing to say about Landa, the thread can be allowed to peter out, and you'll get better discussion of your arguments on the relative merits of the northern Classics as against the Ardennes Classics in a thread better suited to it, surely?
No, it's a road thread.
 

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