Milano - Sanremo: March 23rd, 2019

Page 17 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Oliver Naesen: " There were gaps of two meters between all the riders and when I looked back on the descent I only saw champions’ jerseys. I knew at that time that I should be happy to be there."

I noticed that too. The front group consisted of the world champion, the European champion, the Slovak and Polish champions with four world championships combined, the previous Belgian champion and a three-time World cross champion. And Alaphilippe. Only the Olympic champion was missing.
 
Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Dekker_Tifosi said:
Haha DNP-Old, your views are starkly contradicting Groenewegen's own views.

He says it wasn't so bad, he survived the Cipressa and said with a bit more strength and experience he has faith in surviving the Poggio in the future as well.
It wasn't all that bad, but he was dropped from a +100 peloton on Cipressa. Thats really not great despite him being on obvious great form. He would have to shred some kilos to at least stand a chance, especially with the way the race is trending...

Red Rick: Le Manie would just be so much better, Pompeina wouldn't really be balanced.
Yes.

You can't have both balance and lots of action really. Unless you remove the Poggio after adding Pompeiana I dunno. Pretty sure Cipressa/Pompeiana would be much harder though.

I really want a Giro stage there. Or any other stage race for that matter.
 
Its easy to say Trentins attack was bad in hindsight. But everyone was alone in the group and it was well-timed. Sagan chased and then Van Aert to close it. Everybody could have easily just sat and looked at each other instead. Now they responded fast to it. I dont think he would have won the sprint against Sagan or Ala either way.

Sagan made a mistake in positioning himself in the last few hundred metres before the sprint. I think he got overtaken when someone started their sprint from far out and lost some positions. He was almost in the back of the group when he had to start his sprint. Then had to make a leap to the right of the road. He looked like he had the speed at the end but it just wasnt enough metres left.

Ala just been the best rider these first few months. What a great rider! You cant say anything about it.
 
Re:

LaFlorecita said:
Bonny's attack on the descent was the highlight of the race! Does anyone know if he trains in the area often? He looked so confident.
I couldn't understand the move at the time and still don't but it sure was cool.
Yes the commentators on the RAI
said that Bonafaccio knew the descent like the back of his hand due to training there.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Velolover2 said:
Good edition after all. The balance is still perfect but you could add Le Maine for a bit more pre-action without destroying the sprinters' (bar Groenewegen and Kittel) chances..

The slow pace on Cipressa made Poggio much more explosive. But I'm astonished that no one had the guts to go long range.
I feel quite the opposite. Today convinced me it's not all that balanced even without Le Manie.

One team decided to ride really hard on the Poggio today, the Poggio group did not cooperate at all, it had been an easy day all day, and the bunch kick finished almost half a minute down.

If one strong team commits to the Poggio, a bunch sprint can't win. That is perhaps the biggest tactical change together with guys like Sagan, Matthews and Degenkolb not waiting for a sprint anymore.
If im not mistaken there was a tailwind as well. That helps wonders as well in getting a high pace up the poggio.
Indeed a really fast ascent of the poggio will kill the sprinters, but a really strong team is required that also has a strong leader else they wont be organised.
 
Re: Re:

tobydawq said:
SafeBet said:
People will never understand that sprinting after 300km is like a different sport. Nibali beat Trentin and was almost on Valverde's level. Sagan has been consistently beaten by slower guys in Sanremo. It was not just a matter of being boxed in, he didn't have the legs.

There is a reason Alaphilippe was the favorite, i.e. he's the strongest rider in the world at the moment.
No. Because it isn't. They are averaging 150 watts the first 4 hours. It doesn't mean that much.

It's hard because the last 10 kilometres have been hard, not because they have ridden 300 kilometres.

Trentin had just been on the solo attack. Nibali was not close to Valverde. Sagan was boxed in.
Sagan was tactically inept AND wasn't the fastest anyway. It took him forever to open the sprint because he had dead legs. He's been beaten a gazillion times by lesser sprinters on this finish before. What does that tell you?

This race is different from any other. And it's preposterous to claim it would be the same if it was 100 km shorter. Trentin could attack a hundred times and still outsprint Nibali by a mile in a standard 200 km race. You're too smart to really believe those extra 100 km don't make a difference.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Velolover2 said:
Good edition after all. The balance is still perfect but you could add Le Maine for a bit more pre-action without destroying the sprinters' (bar Groenewegen and Kittel) chances..

The slow pace on Cipressa made Poggio much more explosive. But I'm astonished that no one had the guts to go long range.
I feel quite the opposite. Today convinced me it's not all that balanced even without Le Manie.

One team decided to ride really hard on the Poggio today, the Poggio group did not cooperate at all, it had been an easy day all day, and the bunch kick finished almost half a minute down.

If one strong team commits to the Poggio, a bunch sprint can't win. That is perhaps the biggest tactical change together with guys like Sagan, Matthews and Degenkolb not waiting for a sprint anymore.
The problem is that there is no problem.

The crop of riders now is that sprinters have no chance. Did you see that front group? even without cooperating. Those were really legendary riders. Not to mentions that Nibali, Sagan and GVA were not of form. Add any little hill and all these riders will explode the peloton if put together. This is great!
 
Re: Re:

SafeBet said:
tobydawq said:
SafeBet said:
People will never understand that sprinting after 300km is like a different sport. Nibali beat Trentin and was almost on Valverde's level. Sagan has been consistently beaten by slower guys in Sanremo. It was not just a matter of being boxed in, he didn't have the legs.

There is a reason Alaphilippe was the favorite, i.e. he's the strongest rider in the world at the moment.
No. Because it isn't. They are averaging 150 watts the first 4 hours. It doesn't mean that much.

It's hard because the last 10 kilometres have been hard, not because they have ridden 300 kilometres.

Trentin had just been on the solo attack. Nibali was not close to Valverde. Sagan was boxed in.
Sagan was tactically inept AND wasn't the fastest anyway. It took him forever to open the sprint because he had dead legs. He's been beaten a gazillion times by lesser sprinters on this finish before. What does that tell you?

This race is different from any other. And it's preposterous to claim it would be the same if it was 100 km shorter. Trentin could attack a hundred times and still outsprint Nibali by a mile in a standard 200 km race. You're too smart to really believe those extra 100 km don't make a difference.
I honestly don't believe that 100 kms ridden at 140 watts is fatigue-inducing for a professional bike rider, no.

Sagan always has a hard time accelerating from low speed (at least comparatively to the people he faced today). The exact same thing happened Monday in Tirreno - he got the front too early and when Richeze and Alaphilippe passed him he couldn't jump on their wheels as quickly as he would have liked. And that stage surely hadn't been hard at all.

And I don't know how to take your Trentin statement. Trentin was to me the most surprising part of the initial 7 man group and already there he must have gone pretty deep. Then he made an attack on the flat where he rides all-out for a kilometre or so. No wonder he didn't have anything to sprint with a kilometre later. That was because he had emptied his anaerobic resources with that attack, not because he had been burning fat an hour longer than usual.
 
Even if they not riding at a fast pace they still have to move their legs, dont they? It is still an extra 100km and 2 hours in the saddle. Im sure the days you go home from the office 2 hours earlier, you feel that you have more energy. So even if they are professional, they do spend energy during this time and it do matters in the end. Then we also have the mental aspect. They still have to be concentrated, keep a good position etc. Make sure to eat, drink and what not during the race. Everybody just rides those first 6 hours thinking about what their move is gonna be. That can also take its toll. Then there is a lot of stress and build up towards Cipressa, Poggio and fight for position. Then the race is on. So it definitely has it charm for me with that it also can have a lot of outcomes. But of course I enjoy the other classics, like most others, more when action going on for a couple of hours the race.
 
Sagan has said in the past he can't do fast change of pace riding at all. That would also apply to sprints. That is one of the things that makes him different from the puncheurs like Alaphilippe who basically make a living on fast change of pace riding and that is something that can be applied to a sprint finish as well.
 
Re:

Koronin said:
Sagan has said in the past he can't do fast change of pace riding at all. That would also apply to sprints. That is one of the things that makes him different from the puncheurs like Alaphilippe who basically make a living on fast change of pace riding and that is something that can be applied to a sprint finish as well.
Then how did Sagan win a bunch of sprints?
 
Re:

The Hegelian said:
What was with the two Sunweb riders at +3 and +8 seconds? Tommy D last of the front group and Michael M chasing out of the peloton? Or something else?
I think Dumoulin gave up sprinting seeing he doesn't have the acceleration.
As for Matthews, he's probably been spent of chasing the group and that's what left to him.
They both came from behind at the descent.
 
Re: Re:

Broccolidwarf said:
Koronin said:
Sagan has said in the past he can't do fast change of pace riding at all. That would also apply to sprints. That is one of the things that makes him different from the puncheurs like Alaphilippe who basically make a living on fast change of pace riding and that is something that can be applied to a sprint finish as well.
Then how did Sagan win a bunch of sprints?
They're going at a higher rate of speed to kicking it up a bit isn't as hard as going from a slower speed to top speed. Kind of like going from 1st gear to 5th gear skipping the ones in between vs going through the gears.
 
Great win individually and team wise. Sagan got caught on the front which happens to him when he gets too twitchy. Ala not the best sprinter in the group but had the best legs on the day. Age might be finally catching up with Valverde although after the world's who would know ? I thought Ewan might hang on but the last burst on the Poggio was too much for him. Dumoulin tried hard probably more so for Matthews but when Matthews was dropped, he kept going. Very talented group at the finish.
 
If Sagan can't get a chance to recover after a max effort (Poggio) he isn't a great sprinter in comparison to everyone else. It's shown in San Remo every year but also in a lot of other races earlier in his career.
 
Re:

movingtarget said:
Great win individually and team wise. Sagan got caught on the front which happens to him when he gets too twitchy. Ala not the best sprinter in the group but had the best legs on the day. Age might be finally catching up with Valverde although after the world's who would know ? I thought Ewan might hang on but the last burst on the Poggio was too much for him. Dumoulin tried hard probably more so for Matthews but when Matthews was dropped, he kept going. Very talented group at the finish.

Possible, but this is eerily similar to 2016, the only other time he raced the Giro. He has to extend his spring by an extra month. He's doing that without cutting race days. Even Sagan has cut some race days just to extend his spring by a week to race LBL. If you look back at his 2016 results it's his worst season in recent years.
 
Re: Re:

SafeBet said:
yaco said:
Trentin is tactically naive at the end of a big race - he was the second fastest in that group, so no need to attack with 2kms to go.
He's not the second fastest of that group after a long hard race. Check his results in the Classics. You'll see for yourself.
Trentin has only been a leader for two seasons so previous seasons are irrelevant - Sagan is the quickest of the final group then Trentin, Alaphalippe,Kwiatkowski and Naesen who are evenly matched - The fact is it was a crazy and unnecessary move by Trentin to attack - The team must be pulling their hair out.
 
Re: Re:

tobydawq said:
SafeBet said:
tobydawq said:
SafeBet said:
People will never understand that sprinting after 300km is like a different sport. Nibali beat Trentin and was almost on Valverde's level. Sagan has been consistently beaten by slower guys in Sanremo. It was not just a matter of being boxed in, he didn't have the legs.

There is a reason Alaphilippe was the favorite, i.e. he's the strongest rider in the world at the moment.
No. Because it isn't. They are averaging 150 watts the first 4 hours. It doesn't mean that much.

It's hard because the last 10 kilometres have been hard, not because they have ridden 300 kilometres.

Trentin had just been on the solo attack. Nibali was not close to Valverde. Sagan was boxed in.
Sagan was tactically inept AND wasn't the fastest anyway. It took him forever to open the sprint because he had dead legs. He's been beaten a gazillion times by lesser sprinters on this finish before. What does that tell you?

This race is different from any other. And it's preposterous to claim it would be the same if it was 100 km shorter. Trentin could attack a hundred times and still outsprint Nibali by a mile in a standard 200 km race. You're too smart to really believe those extra 100 km don't make a difference.
I honestly don't believe that 100 kms ridden at 140 watts is fatigue-inducing for a professional bike rider, no.

Sagan always has a hard time accelerating from low speed (at least comparatively to the people he faced today). The exact same thing happened Monday in Tirreno - he got the front too early and when Richeze and Alaphilippe passed him he couldn't jump on their wheels as quickly as he would have liked. And that stage surely hadn't been hard at all.

And I don't know how to take your Trentin statement. Trentin was to me the most surprising part of the initial 7 man group and already there he must have gone pretty deep. Then he made an attack on the flat where he rides all-out for a kilometre or so. No wonder he didn't have anything to sprint with a kilometre later. That was because he had emptied his anaerobic resources with that attack, not because he had been burning fat an hour longer than usual.
100 kms at 150 watts, no.

But 230 kms at 150 watts with 60kms still to go? Better believe it. It adds up, even for the best pros. Sure, they can still launch 1 or 2 strong sprints/attacks but everything is still cumulative. Reaction time decreases, decision making is that bit worse.

Don't believe me? Put your name down for Grafton-Inverell or Melbourne-Warnambool and you can find out for yourself. If the race was so easy it would be a 130 rider sprint.
 
Re: Re:

yaco said:
SafeBet said:
yaco said:
Trentin is tactically naive at the end of a big race - he was the second fastest in that group, so no need to attack with 2kms to go.
He's not the second fastest of that group after a long hard race. Check his results in the Classics. You'll see for yourself.
Trentin has only been a leader for two seasons so previous seasons are irrelevant - Sagan is the quickest of the final group then Trentin, Alaphalippe,Kwiatkowski and Naesen who are evenly matched - The fact is it was a crazy and unnecessary move by Trentin to attack - The team must be pulling their hair out.
Let's check results then:

EC 2018: wins a 4 men sprint after Cimolai leads him out (only fast guy there was VdP).

Gent - Wevelgem 2018: 7th out of 19 in the winning group (outsprinted by Sagan and Naesen among others).

Ronde 2017: 9th out of 14 in the group sprinting for 5th. He had two teammates upfront so I'm skeptical he had to work much in that chasing group.

MSR 2016: 10th out of 31 in the winning group. He was the only Etixx there so sprinting for himself.

There are countless other examples, even in shorter races. Trentin is a fast guy, especially when the finish is slightly uphill, but he's not one who should count on his sprint to win a Classic. I've actually checked all of his wins in one day races before the EC (3) and they all came after a late attack.

So again, to me it was the right call.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY