Millar says Wiggo Top 5 TDF...in other words...

[cocteau_ireland]

I fully expect wiggans to crack on at least one mtf n lose 5 But wish him well...as long as they've ditched the micro-climate buggy

 

[ferryman]

Sorry, but disagree - for Nibs to have won, maybe even including Contador, al they needed was turn 1 or 2 of the MTFs into a Downhill finish - or, you know, include Crostis - Nibs stayed well within 30 secs IIRC of scarponi on that stage, could have taken 2+ mins on the others at crostis before.
Actually, thats a thought - why do GTs never really have a stage that finishes *at* the end of a downhill - they either always finish at the top, or 15km+ away, meaning that a descender like nibs wouldn't easily stay away after the hill. Surely, if it is meant to be testing all round ability, the ability to descend like a falcon should be admired and tested?

The Crostis descent was the biggest red herring in this year's Giro. Even if it was included it would have yielded nada to anyone.

I like your thinking with the downhill finishes though and I do believe race organisers are beginning to see how just darned taxing and exciting they can be. And if planned correctly, with safety in mind, they could become an integral part of a Grand Tour and part of the parcours deciding who wins on GC.

 

[El Pistolero]

The Crostis descent was the biggest red herring in this year's Giro. Even if it was included it would have yielded nada to anyone.

I like your thinking with the downhill finishes though and I do believe race organisers are beginning to see how just darned taxing and exciting they can be. And if planned correctly, with safety in mind, they could become an integral part of a Grand Tour and part of the parcours deciding who wins on GC.

Is that what they used to cut the trees on the descend of the Monte Crostis?

 

[Spine Concept]

I can't agree with your Giro analysis. The route was perfect for a showdown SANS Contador.

Mate, you have overstepped the boundaries of the standpoint and ensuing discussion. I never said the route wasn't perfect for a showdown without Conti. If I did, please quote me and we can discuss about it further.
For the last time, I was using simple reasoning to articulate that a better parcours could have been laid out to better suit NIBALI in particular. That's it, nothing more nothing less. Aside from that I thought the parcours was great seeing as I love climbing and especially MTF's.

 

[Spine Concept]

Ok and Pantani too of course. But Sastre came 12th in the decisive TT (with 3 Gerolsteiners above him) and Pereiro 4th in his. Pantani was 3rd. Where I was going with this is that you should not be able to win a GT without being able to TT. Just like you shouldn't be able to win without being able to climb with the best. The TTing should be just as decisive as the climbing. And a good descender should be rewarded also.

As for the Giro, it certainly wasn't set up for Nibali. For Nibali there would need to be no mtfs and a lot more TT. (And it would have been a better race too. Though with the same result in all probability). Scarponi?

Albeit I agree with what you said I never stated the opposite. I never contested the notion that GT winners ought to at least be able to limit their losses in TT's - which is exactly what Sastre and Pereiro did.
I was just trying to shed some light on the question as to why GT parcours are limited in TT's of late. Which is why I mentioned the general consensus on what aspect of cycling is more appealing nowadays. I did not say whether I agree with this consensus or not.

 

[lukinox]

I think the reason why ITTs have been ditched from GTs lately is because they are not that spectacular and exciting to watch on telly, and because professional cycling is a little bit in a bad state at the moment with all the doping scandals, organizers are trying anything to make racing more exciting.
On the Wiggins question I think if he can mantain the form he had at the Dauphine' he should have no problem in finishing in the top 10, top 5 is going to be difficult and untill Contador and A.Shleck are around a win at the Tour is out of the question.
Sorry Wiggo !

 

[Winterfold]

Descent finishes would be really great IMO.

Skill and bike handling do not play enough of a role in determining the overall GC of big stage races at the moment and they are just as much of a component of cycling as absolute power and power-weight.

Contador still wins of course, but it gives all-rounders more of a fighing chance against pure climbers with laughable bike handling skills (ie they are not really very good at riding bikes, just small and skinny).

We saw how much the cobbles and Ardennes stages changed things last year. F Schleck straight out of the race and Spartacus had to chuck all his toys out to stop A Schleck losing the race on stage 3 (or 4? cant remember the exact number).

 

[Captain_Cavman]

Albeit I agree with what you said I never stated the opposite. I never contested the notion that GT winners ought to at least be able to limit their losses in TT's - which is exactly what Sastre and Pereiro did.
I was just trying to shed some light on the question as to why GT parcours are limited in TT's of late. Which is why I mentioned the general consensus on what aspect of cycling is more appealing nowadays. I did not say whether I agree with this consensus or not.

Please accept my apologies. When so many on this forum get wildly overexcited at the prospect of a Giro with little else but killer mtfs, it's too easy to make assumptions.

Sorry, but disagree - for Nibs to have won, maybe even including Contador, al they needed was turn 1 or 2 of the MTFs into a Downhill finish - or, you know, include Crostis - Nibs stayed well within 30 secs IIRC of scarponi on that stage, could have taken 2+ mins on the others at crostis before.
Actually, thats a thought - why do GTs never really have a stage that finishes *at* the end of a downhill - they either always finish at the top, or 15km+ away, meaning that a descender like nibs wouldn't easily stay away after the hill. Surely, if it is meant to be testing all round ability, the ability to descend like a falcon should be admired and tested?

Not sure we are disagreeing much.

 

[El Pistolero]

No way Nibali would have won if there were 2 descend finishes after a tough mountain. Contador would have just distanced him self from Nibali on the climb and hold on in the descends. And the Tour has 2 Mountain stages that end in a descend. Not the thoughest of mountain stages, but it's something. The descend of Gap(where Beloki crashed and Vino won) returns.