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Colm.Murphy said:
True or not is not the issue. Some things are simply over the line.

Mr. Millar, in his own hypocrisy, stepped over it in my view.

Since he can't seem to find the sense to applaud Landis for FINALLY coming clean, and providing the info long sought by USADA and others, he has gone to attack Landis and looks the fool for doing it.

Landis went way, way, way over the line in his actions toward Lemond, and in general went completely nutters with his defense. I can see how someone like Millar isn't exactly too impressed.

It's not that I think Millar's whole take on the situation is so spot on, but I can certainly see where Millar thinks he's an ***.
 
Jun 28, 2009
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I am glad someone is calling out Floyd for the *** he is. I guess everyone on this forum is willing to drop all the wrongdoings of Landis since he is willing to throw Lance under the bus. Floyd is not an honorable or credible person and does not deserve any of this publicity that he is getting. He is not a nice person and deserves to waste his life away ***edited by mod **** and perjury and I hope Armstrong throws his arsenal of attorneys at him. I am not a fanboy. I am ticked that we are giving this piece of crap our time of day.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Clemson Cycling said:
I guess everyone on this forum is willing to drop all the wrongdoings of Landis since he is willing to throw Lance under the bus. Floyd is not an honorable or credible person and does not deserve any of this publicity that he is getting. He is not a nice person and deserves to waste his life away on a metal throne for black male and perjury.

whistleblowers are generally complicit in the behavior which they are exposing. That's the nature of the beast.

I'm a pretty nice guy and I've chosen to play by the rules, but the the hell do I know? A little, but not much that's going to help expose the rotten core.

It's fine to hate Landis. I hated him too, though when he towed me out of the gutter in some race in AZ I was a little bit grateful. I'm even more grateful that he's come forward now, whatever his motivations. Let's face it; he's not saying anything most of us didn't either know or suspect. While his credibility is in the gutter, at least he was there--and more importantly he was willing to finger guys who were there and will be more credible than he. And let's be honest here. Those guys weren't willing to talk on the own volition. Ultimately, Landis' accusations and a federal prosecutor are going to get lips moving.

in the end, I don't think it matters what anyone thinks of Floyd. Some will think he's the world's biggest d-bag, other will think of him as a hero. I'm actually pretty ambivalent, but if he helps ferret out the true problems in the sport, I view that as a good thing, no matter what his intentions may be, and regardless of my personal feelings towards him.

While I almost think this deserved it's own thread, there are enough of those already. This is a great read which goes right to the heart of the matter with regard to whistleblowers like Landis:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/05/denials-acceptance-and-anti-doping.html
 
Clemson Cycling said:
I am glad someone is calling out Floyd for the *** he is. I guess everyone on this forum is willing to drop all the wrongdoings of Landis since he is willing to throw Lance under the bus. Floyd is not an honorable or credible person and does not deserve any of this publicity that he is getting. He is not a nice person and deserves to waste his life away *** edited by mod *** and perjury and I hope Armstrong throws his arsenal of attorneys at him. I am not a fanboy. I am ticked that we are giving this piece of crap our time of day.

He's acted like a complete douche, but ignoring what he has to say at this point would be folly. It reeks of the truth.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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131313 said:
whistleblowers are generally complicit in the behavior which they are exposing. That's the nature of the beast.



While I almost think this deserved it's own thread, there are enough of those already. This is a great read which goes right to the heart of the matter with regard to whistleblowers like Landis:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/05/denials-acceptance-and-anti-doping.html

thanks for the post and link, I especially enjoyed this follow up in link above

I'm not a scientist; but I have received law enforcement interrogation training. Landis's initial denials of doping in 2006, when interviewed immediately following the revelations of his positive test from the TdF (and before being lawyered up), showed many of the classic signs of deception: unable to muster an emotional denial, assumed belief that no one would believe such a denial, and, most particularly, misplaced outrage--his most emotional response was directed to comments about his mother. "Leave her out of this," he said (as memory serves). "She's a saint. She would never get involved in stuff like this." She wouldn't; but he would. That Landis couldn't muster outrage on his own behalf ("Hell no I didn't!") but could for his mother was a clear indicator of deception. Even in his colloquy with Greg Lemond, Landis reportedly said, he was concerned that a confession would only "hurt innocent people." Tellingly, in the Bonnie Ford interview, Landis now says that the hardest part of his confession was calling his mother to tell her the truth.

So I believe that Landis was lying then, and that his confession regarding his own doping is truthful now. And I feel sorry for those who staked their own beliefs, and money, behind his defense. I also believe that the accusations Landis makes against other cyclists (he primarily names Americans in his emails to USA Cycling, as I understand it, because that body is responsible for the licensing of the American pros) are sufficiently credible and specific to merit serious consideration and investigation. I agree with the other posts that note that the details regarding the techniques of doping appear to be corroborated by the available public details of other confessed and contemporaneous dopers such as Patrick Sinkewitz. Any such accusations will, by and large, consist of one person's detailed oral history--mob families have been brought down with less. Contemporaneous training diaries, as Landis suggests he has, could be very powerful evidence.

The sport of cycling has all the financial incentives in the world to push past practices under the rug and try to move on. But the fact that many riders of a dirty past continue to ride in the pro peleton, and have success, points to serious unanswered questions. Just ask the riders who compete against the Vinokourovs, Valverdes, and others of the world. It's time for the sport to clean house.

About a top cyclist riding clean speaking out about suspicion of others' practices: the history of omerta (the "code of silence") and accusation in the sport suggests otherwise. For example Christian Vandevelde was asked a similar question about his strong ride at the 2008 TdF and the nature of his competitors. Vandevelde said that he didn't know about other riders, he knew that he was riding clean, and so therefore assumed that others around him on GC were, as well. Vandevelde's team published and allowed independent analysis of his year-long profile, to establish Vandevelde's bona fides.

Of course, several of the performances around Vandevelde were not clean--including Bernhard Kohl, who finished ahead of Vandevelde on GC, as well as those of Stefan Schumacher, Leonardo Piepoli, and Ricardo Ricco, among others. But Vandevelde wasn't in position to have evidence of those others' practices. One can imagine the difficulty that a rider might have to make such accusations without proof against a competitor. Given the sordid history of the sport, one might also well imagine how difficult it would be if, say, someone were demonstrably riding clean now, but was aware of questionable practices in one's own past. The riders and professionals associated with the current Garmin-Transitions team, which appears to be among those making the most effort to practice and demonstrate clean riding, are pointedly mute about their own past practices while on other teams. It's the glass houses effect.

Even if always clean, throwing stones would damage the sport, reduce one's own standing as a competitor, and yield little in reward. Ask, among others, Gilberto Simoni, who famously accused Ivan Basso of riding "like an extra-terrestial" at the 2006 Giro di Italia. While not accused of doping himself, Simoni was heaped with scorn and tagged as a sore loser; little was said or done to Simoni's benefit when, just months later, Basso's involvement in the Operation Puerto scandal became clear. Infamously, too, Fillipo Simeoni accurately accused Dr. Michele Ferrari in 2004 of being involved with doping; for his trouble, Simeoni's presence in a break at the TdF was chased down. Simeoni was not rewarded for his accurate accusation.

Typically, knowledge of doping practices appears to come from first-hand knowledge--to know for certain what happened and where, one had to be directly involved. To accuse others with substantial evidence therefore typically means indicting oneself. The track record of cyclists who admit to doping regaining high-level employment in cycling is very poor--they have typically been shunned. The few who have gained some measure of a restored career are the exceptions that prove the rule. Most riders or team professionals with knowledge of doping practices--and there must be many, given what is confirmed about, just as examples, the old T Mobile team, Phonak, Saunier Duval, Festina, and many of the former members of US Postal-Discovery--must weigh the likelihood of ending their gainful employment in their chosen profession, and quite likely risking ruining the careers and endorsements of all of the people with whom they have been associated. Even, and perhaps paradoxically particularly, teams committed to "clean racing" such as T-Mobile-High Road, when faced with the Patrick Sinkewitz revelations, risk sponsor withdrawals over positive tests. The risks are high and the individual rewards are few.

In sum, the nature of the cycling community creates strong disincentive to defect from omerta and to display what one knows about doping practices, even if those practices are in the past, and the defections (those who admit doping practices and supply evidence against others) are, typically, those with nothing left to lose.

Those dynamics are little different from many criminal conspiracies, from drugs to racketeering to white collar crimes like price-fixing. As a prosecutor with the US Department of Justice's Antitrust Division, I worked with agents and fellow prosecutors to encourage witnesses to defect from price-fixing conspiracies and cooperate with government investigations. There, too, the incentive to defect is low and the risks are high--those who admit to price-fixing subject themselves and their companies to criminal fines and imprisonment, as well as treble civil damages. Like in cycling, those individuals who "turn state's witness" can be assured that they will never work in their chosen field again, and that they will be contributing to the ruination of everything and everyone around whom they have worked throughout their careers. The Antitrust Division offers an amnesty program to incentivize defection: immunity from criminal prosecution, de-trebled (single) damages for wrongdoing, legal protection for whistleblowers--even the opportunity for whisteblowers to share in the recoveries of certain ill-gotten gains. The system isn't perfect, but it at least begins to provide incentives for conspirators to defect.

Until cycling properly incentivizes those with knowledge to come forward--for example, with protection from suspension, guarantees of employment on clean teams, and harsh penalties for teams and individuals that do not cooperate--the incentives for those who are dirty, and even those who are clean, to keep what they know silent will remain strong.

It could not be said better!

Ross
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Clemson Cycling said:
I am glad someone is calling out Floyd for the *** he is. I guess everyone on this forum is willing to drop all the wrongdoings of Landis since he is willing to throw Lance under the bus. Floyd is not an honorable or credible person and does not deserve any of this publicity that he is getting. He is not a nice person and deserves to waste his life away on *** edited by mod **** and perjury and I hope Armstrong throws his arsenal of attorneys at him. I am not a fanboy. I am ticked that we are giving this piece of crap our time of day.
Floyd should come clean on the testo, and his history at Mercury Viatel and preceding it. And face down those who want blood over defrauding the donors.

Heck, he might be in line for compensation with the whistleblower statute, he may have the money to pay back the donors if that is successful.

When Prentice Steffen came out and suggested this course, about 24 months back, this was Landis' out. Perfect solution. Ofcourse this was expedience, Floyd held out, til he was backed in the corner, with no recourse to re-enter the sport on a level that fit his ego.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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samerics said:
Millar doped, paid his penalty and has been very vocally anti-doping since. He held his hands up when he was caught, unlike FL.
No he didn't - he lied his *** off when Gaumont first named him and called Gaumont "a lunatic" who was "talking crap" at one point. It was only when the police raided his - Millar's - house after the wiretaps and found EPO in his bathroom that he fessed up, and even then he tried to blame it all on Lelli's influence.
 
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Miller, at least accepted the penalty, went away and did his time reasonable quietly and returned to the sport. Landis, until recently has constantly denied any wrongdoing, blaming anyone and everyone but himself.

I have little respect for either of them, for the damage that they did (despite an Australian winning after Miller's doping was caught). I would have more respect for either of them, if they did not drag matters out when caught, like Frie (although it would have been better is none of them doped).

All users do nothing for the sport, and continue to damage its image - they all need to be dealt with and move the sport forward.

I may be innocent and niave about cyclists, but I take the maxum that everyone is innocent until proven guilty - throwing accusations around does nothing in and of itself, however the allegations that Landis is making, in relation to some riders, backs up other allegations. I simply hope for the future of the sport that the sport is now clean!
 
Clemson Cycling said:
I am glad someone is calling out Floyd for the *** he is. I guess everyone on this forum is willing to drop all the wrongdoings of Landis since he is willing to throw Lance under the bus. Floyd is not an honorable or credible person and does not deserve any of this publicity that he is getting. He is not a nice person and deserves to waste his life away *** edited by mod **** black male and perjury and I hope Armstrong throws his arsenal of attorneys at him. I am not a fanboy. I am ticked that we are giving this piece of crap our time of day.

I hope you mean "blackmail". ;)
 
May 26, 2010
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Aus_Orca said:
Clearly Millar is being a douche, but clearly Landis is a douche-bag. I'm glad Landis has come out with the accusations and come clean, but I will never forgive him for taking peoples money for his defense. Sorry Floyd you are and will forever be a douche-bag, enjoy the douchiness!!!!

In case guys have forgotten, FL held his hands up and spilt the beans, but still denies he took what he tested positive for, but he did PED his tour win.

Now i am happy to accept FL and his flaws who took people's money and then owned up to what he is, cos he was left out in the cold by the people who taught him how to play and then refused to let him back in too play....rather than the disneyland idea of a 'cancer hero' who stills takes mil$$$$ns off people in a seriously morally corrupt manner....

If FL is a docuhe-bag, what's that maek the rest of the peloton, and worse guys like millar...millar comes in way lower that FL
 
Landis is coming clean, admitting what he did and trying to expose the corruption that he believes exists in that his positive wasn't a true positive. He admits he chested but says he wasn't caught for what he did.

Millars comments aren't exactly going to encourage people to come forward to expose this corruption that seems to run from the very top and favours teams with money and influence.

Millar has shown his true colours, that he is happy with cheating going on unpunished and that whistle-blowers should be shamed.
 
May 26, 2010
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klmorgan said:
Miller, at least accepted the penalty, went away and did his time reasonable quietly and returned to the sport.

which meant that the omerta continues, with him talking out of both sides of his mouth......

he had a choice whether to accept the penalty and rejoin the PED peleton or blow the whole shebang like FL, he chose to go back in, which makes him part of the problem not the solution.

you seem happy to watch PED cycling and if that the way it stays fine......we'll young guys are dying due to PED use and it is covered up by guys like Millar toeing the line....

FL needs the support of guys like Millar and Wiggins if they truly want the sport to be clean...but low and behold they don't either as they appear to be micro dosing....wait for the blood passport to be proven a joke
 
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yeh what DM seems to be implying is that his fairly quick admission (relative to a few others anyway) was functional - so that he could come back and have a future in a sport that would have changed little - actually you dont have to admit much if you dont want to- just do the two years like basso and vino etc- the one thing you are not allowed to do is name others - that is the only thing there is no way back from
 
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klmorgan said:
Miller, at least accepted the penalty, went away and did his time reasonable quietly and returned to the sport. Landis, until recently has constantly denied any wrongdoing, blaming anyone and everyone but himself.

to be fair, landis failed a dope test, millar was caught in the chemist
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
Floyd left it so long because he thought 'I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine'. But when they left him itching, he thought, why hold his part of the bargain up anymore?

Then it all became public during the Tour of California deliberately of course.


Why didn't he wait till the TdF? Kill two birds with one stone!
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Millar came back and worked with Checcini until forced to terminate the relationship in 2006 - he's as big a hypocrite as any of the 'repentant' dopers.
 
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Millar has come out with some dumb comments, M Rogers also. Maybe they should of kept their mouths shut unless they can come out with something more constructive.

IE implicating other riders, managers, administrators, suppliers etc etc etc.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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bianchigirl said:
Millar came back and worked with Checcini until forced to terminate the relationship in 2006 - he's as big a hypocrite as any of the 'repentant' dopers.
and personally, I reckon Max Sciandri in Tuscany is Cav's alchemist preparatore. Sciandri was sending him (Millar in this case) to Ceccho.