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The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
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- Status
Dr. Maserati said:
Well, there are a couple of points to this.
1. Not all mods are the same. There is going to be soem diversion in interpretation simply because different people view things differently.
2. The mods cannot possibly keep up with each and every slight that happens in the forum. As it turns out, you have the power to stop some of the most aggressive ones by simply using the ignore button.
It is a discussion forum, and when someone can only respond with insults .... don't worry about it - you beat him. You don't need a mod to take your side.
gree0232 said:
Unless someone is rightfully frustrated about an abusive individual posting the same silly circular logic, over and over again. The ignore button works until that same jerk changes avatars and starts again.
bobs *** said:
+1 There is very much a "pack" on this forum and if you don't join it you are hunted down and ripped to shreads like a bear with a piece of salmon.
If you are feelling 'hunted' then I encourage you to let us know - I will certainly do what I can to address issues of this nature.
Terry
Moderator
Terry
Moderator
auscyclefan94 said:+1 There is very much a "pack" on this forum and if you don't join it you are hunted down and ripped to shreads like a bear with a piece of salmon.
Well that's what happens when you bait people.
Excuses for the late post on this topic, been rather busy. It does deal with issues that were annoying me enough to want to make a few comments though.
1) A thank you to the moderators for their voluntary services. This is not to kiss ****, but because I genuinely appreciate the time you stick into it. I'm sure you make mistakes, I am sure you will be biased, as I sure hope you are human, but I am starting on the default assumption that you volunteered to make this place a more enjoyable one for all of us. That alone means I tend to cut you guys some serious slack, something you can remind me off when I pick up an infringement for something I feel I don't deserve (but probably did). I also assume that those that have stepped up to the plate are willing to learn and become better at it, and are able to admit to mistakes. So far, that certainly seems to be the case.
2) A thank you to the many posters who contribute without ever needing moderation. It's nice to see frequent examples of strong opinions and colourful posting personalities by posters who do not need baiting or kicking others to attract attention or to show "trumping" wit.
3) A belated thank you for the clinic. After its creation the tone and attitude in the remaining threads became much more to my liking. The topic division also seems to mean a poster/posting attitude division, and since I tend to hover in one more than the other, it improved my personal enjoyment of the forum tremendously. It would be nice if the posts in the clinic were as consistent for tone as the rest of the site, but the trolls and opinionated posters make that nigh impossible, so constructive posting by all who share the moderators hopes for the quality of the site. From a moderation point of view, good luck with that one!
Having said that
4) It might be cyclical to the beholder, but lately, to me, things appear to have become increasingly personal between a small section of prolific posters, and that hasn't done either one the forum any services. I'd argue that all of it is caused by poster/reader attitude, not caused by moderation as such, but moderation plays a role and thus influences how things evolve.
5) I do feel there are too few moderators and those present weren't covering the board 24/7, so adding an Australia office is a good one. I think ACF might feel wronged because mods weren't always on hand to calm things down before they spiralled out of control when ACF was at the receiving end, adding to a perception of "unfair" treatment. At the same time, ACF will get no sympathy from me for the recent "I'll dish it too then" attitude. It's one thing to know that taking "things too personal" is an issue, and being moderated seems to fall under that heading too, but you really got to learn to swallow at times, even if you have some valid points. Make a case, but don't make the case yet again another "personal" crusade, as it will attract differing opinions, and you don't always deal well with those if you feel passionate about them. There are several mods here trying to be very constructive in this thread with you, so get off your "the mods need to be burned down" tone, and work with the new terrain. AND accept that it won't be perfect all the time, but they all try to be, all the time.
6) The Forums could still do with more mods. People with a certain tempering style (not prolific posters per se, so maybe tricky to discover), known to be online a lot, and able to step in quickly before things take up a page and a half. Especially high profile stage threads could do with several mods "on hand" 24/7. I often bite my tongue until things really **** me off, but I have seen many situations go from bad to worse, and that is with several moderate posters making one reasonable request after another to tone things down ignored by those who couldn't care less. Thankfully, often an appeal to sensibilities, a simple "guys, cool it, last warning" post, is enough to get things back on topic, BEFORE any real modding needs to take place. But without it being anyone's fault, mods are not always present to do that. It doesn't always help that the one who is is also involved as a regular poster. Maybe mods should have a way to differentiate a post as a mod, and a post as a poster.
7) The "read this" pinned thread is totally inadequate as a tool for reminding people how to post, and how not too. I have experiences with sites that do it far more effective, and it's something that ought to be addressed by the site. You set the rules/tone at the start of a posting career. It's hard to turn the clock back after that. The first post someone makes should make it very clear the rules are people signing up too. A simple/brief reminder should be part of the very page I am working on now [the form to make a new post]. And maybe an occasional reminder to those that get flagged a lot.
8) There are certainly long-standing posters who get away with more than others, although I have the impression that this is addressed to some extent as an acknowledged issue by the mods. The trick here is that context is all, and sorry ACF, I don't think you are always the best judge to get a "fair reading" of the situation, especially not when you are in the thick of it. There are some posters who might be having valid points too, but have a way with presenting those that actually inflame situations, so much that the line between "discussing" and "baiting" can become very thin indeed. I guess it will be hard to find people who post frequently who are not seen as part of one camp or another, but ideally mods would have a certain natural standing here, and a simple appeal to courtesy and common sense would be taken as enough encouragement to take the communal heat out of a situation, rather than having to point at the badge and sanctions.
9) I know how hard it is myself as I am sure I fail this test often, but sometimes it would help if posters wouldn't rise to every bait thrown in their direction. EVEN if you are right, don't try to have the last word, and actually let a stupid point made against you stand, especially if you have protested it already. Trust that it will be plain to others who is the **** in that situation. I know how hard it is not to reply to each new stupid insult that comes your way, but sometimes you can only show who is the wiser by actually being the wiser one, and walking away (and report where appropriate if you feel inclined).
10) Trust the mods to work for the greater good rather than themselves, and work with them so they can be more effective and just enjoy the forum too, instead of having to "work" here. Don't quote trolls, try to stop others from responding to them. Try to stay on topic. If you veer off topic, do not posts absolute no-no's (sport results, etc), and you notice your discussion is becoming THE BULK of the posts, STOP. Sometimes when I feel I have gone to far off topic, or too frequent, I try to add a post that is on topic, just to make the point I am not trying to derail the thread, but judged it to be added "value" to some. I think we all agree that some off topic avenues are part of the natural flow, and it's all down to "degree" most of the time. When you have four posters asking you to stop it, it's probably time to do it without whining about it for another 3 pages.
11) Accept the occasional finger slap instead of making a big deal about it. If you have points, raise them (you did ACF), but don't drone on about it as if your situation is unique and the end of the internet as we know it, and it all revolves around you. Especially not if you fully admit you broke the rules that you are being punished for (you did). In the end you weaken your points, rather than strengthen them.
12) Assume that because you feel modding is uneven handed, you really don't know, as most of it probably happens well outside your view, and there will be things (PMs, etc) you simply aren't privy too. Just because it looks "the same" to you, it, far more likely, is not even vaguely equal at all. Just because jumping to conclusions is the norm on the intertubes, you don't have to make it your own attitude.
Sorry for the long one, and the late one, but it will have been apparent to some I was getting a bit annoyed with posting behaviours by some recently (ACF included, but certainly not exclusively as folk were prodding for a response too). This seemed to be the place to vent, rather than keep it bottled up and start another thread in a week or so. I also felt that I was referenced in this thread without being actually named, but that might just be my wrong assumption.
1) A thank you to the moderators for their voluntary services. This is not to kiss ****, but because I genuinely appreciate the time you stick into it. I'm sure you make mistakes, I am sure you will be biased, as I sure hope you are human, but I am starting on the default assumption that you volunteered to make this place a more enjoyable one for all of us. That alone means I tend to cut you guys some serious slack, something you can remind me off when I pick up an infringement for something I feel I don't deserve (but probably did). I also assume that those that have stepped up to the plate are willing to learn and become better at it, and are able to admit to mistakes. So far, that certainly seems to be the case.
2) A thank you to the many posters who contribute without ever needing moderation. It's nice to see frequent examples of strong opinions and colourful posting personalities by posters who do not need baiting or kicking others to attract attention or to show "trumping" wit.
3) A belated thank you for the clinic. After its creation the tone and attitude in the remaining threads became much more to my liking. The topic division also seems to mean a poster/posting attitude division, and since I tend to hover in one more than the other, it improved my personal enjoyment of the forum tremendously. It would be nice if the posts in the clinic were as consistent for tone as the rest of the site, but the trolls and opinionated posters make that nigh impossible, so constructive posting by all who share the moderators hopes for the quality of the site. From a moderation point of view, good luck with that one!
Having said that
4) It might be cyclical to the beholder, but lately, to me, things appear to have become increasingly personal between a small section of prolific posters, and that hasn't done either one the forum any services. I'd argue that all of it is caused by poster/reader attitude, not caused by moderation as such, but moderation plays a role and thus influences how things evolve.
5) I do feel there are too few moderators and those present weren't covering the board 24/7, so adding an Australia office is a good one. I think ACF might feel wronged because mods weren't always on hand to calm things down before they spiralled out of control when ACF was at the receiving end, adding to a perception of "unfair" treatment. At the same time, ACF will get no sympathy from me for the recent "I'll dish it too then" attitude. It's one thing to know that taking "things too personal" is an issue, and being moderated seems to fall under that heading too, but you really got to learn to swallow at times, even if you have some valid points. Make a case, but don't make the case yet again another "personal" crusade, as it will attract differing opinions, and you don't always deal well with those if you feel passionate about them. There are several mods here trying to be very constructive in this thread with you, so get off your "the mods need to be burned down" tone, and work with the new terrain. AND accept that it won't be perfect all the time, but they all try to be, all the time.
6) The Forums could still do with more mods. People with a certain tempering style (not prolific posters per se, so maybe tricky to discover), known to be online a lot, and able to step in quickly before things take up a page and a half. Especially high profile stage threads could do with several mods "on hand" 24/7. I often bite my tongue until things really **** me off, but I have seen many situations go from bad to worse, and that is with several moderate posters making one reasonable request after another to tone things down ignored by those who couldn't care less. Thankfully, often an appeal to sensibilities, a simple "guys, cool it, last warning" post, is enough to get things back on topic, BEFORE any real modding needs to take place. But without it being anyone's fault, mods are not always present to do that. It doesn't always help that the one who is is also involved as a regular poster. Maybe mods should have a way to differentiate a post as a mod, and a post as a poster.
7) The "read this" pinned thread is totally inadequate as a tool for reminding people how to post, and how not too. I have experiences with sites that do it far more effective, and it's something that ought to be addressed by the site. You set the rules/tone at the start of a posting career. It's hard to turn the clock back after that. The first post someone makes should make it very clear the rules are people signing up too. A simple/brief reminder should be part of the very page I am working on now [the form to make a new post]. And maybe an occasional reminder to those that get flagged a lot.
8) There are certainly long-standing posters who get away with more than others, although I have the impression that this is addressed to some extent as an acknowledged issue by the mods. The trick here is that context is all, and sorry ACF, I don't think you are always the best judge to get a "fair reading" of the situation, especially not when you are in the thick of it. There are some posters who might be having valid points too, but have a way with presenting those that actually inflame situations, so much that the line between "discussing" and "baiting" can become very thin indeed. I guess it will be hard to find people who post frequently who are not seen as part of one camp or another, but ideally mods would have a certain natural standing here, and a simple appeal to courtesy and common sense would be taken as enough encouragement to take the communal heat out of a situation, rather than having to point at the badge and sanctions.
9) I know how hard it is myself as I am sure I fail this test often, but sometimes it would help if posters wouldn't rise to every bait thrown in their direction. EVEN if you are right, don't try to have the last word, and actually let a stupid point made against you stand, especially if you have protested it already. Trust that it will be plain to others who is the **** in that situation. I know how hard it is not to reply to each new stupid insult that comes your way, but sometimes you can only show who is the wiser by actually being the wiser one, and walking away (and report where appropriate if you feel inclined).
10) Trust the mods to work for the greater good rather than themselves, and work with them so they can be more effective and just enjoy the forum too, instead of having to "work" here. Don't quote trolls, try to stop others from responding to them. Try to stay on topic. If you veer off topic, do not posts absolute no-no's (sport results, etc), and you notice your discussion is becoming THE BULK of the posts, STOP. Sometimes when I feel I have gone to far off topic, or too frequent, I try to add a post that is on topic, just to make the point I am not trying to derail the thread, but judged it to be added "value" to some. I think we all agree that some off topic avenues are part of the natural flow, and it's all down to "degree" most of the time. When you have four posters asking you to stop it, it's probably time to do it without whining about it for another 3 pages.
11) Accept the occasional finger slap instead of making a big deal about it. If you have points, raise them (you did ACF), but don't drone on about it as if your situation is unique and the end of the internet as we know it, and it all revolves around you. Especially not if you fully admit you broke the rules that you are being punished for (you did). In the end you weaken your points, rather than strengthen them.
12) Assume that because you feel modding is uneven handed, you really don't know, as most of it probably happens well outside your view, and there will be things (PMs, etc) you simply aren't privy too. Just because it looks "the same" to you, it, far more likely, is not even vaguely equal at all. Just because jumping to conclusions is the norm on the intertubes, you don't have to make it your own attitude.
Sorry for the long one, and the late one, but it will have been apparent to some I was getting a bit annoyed with posting behaviours by some recently (ACF included, but certainly not exclusively as folk were prodding for a response too). This seemed to be the place to vent, rather than keep it bottled up and start another thread in a week or so. I also felt that I was referenced in this thread without being actually named, but that might just be my wrong assumption.
Susan Westemeyer
Retired Moderator
There has been enough discussion of volunteer moderators that I want to point out that I am paid by Future for all of my work for the website, including that done here in the forum.
And I agree that it would be ideal to have enough moderators to have at least two on round the clock.
Susan
And I agree that it would be ideal to have enough moderators to have at least two on round the clock.
Susan
Francois the Postman said:
I get it. You are having a shot at me! Keep 'em coming! Funny how you single me out. It is kinda sad how much you have put into that post how little I care about reading the bits that don't mention or refer to me. Well, I guess that means I have read the whole post then.
auscyclefan94 said:
No, not in the slightest.
I'm addressing you because you started this thread and you have made specific points and allegations at others (mods, fellow posters) throughout this thread, whilst excusing your own. If adding to your thread and addressing you on points you raise is "sad" or "singling you out", so be it.
[ACF:]
It is kinda sad how much you have put into that post how little I care about reading the bits that don't mention or refer to me.
Whatever you think said that certainly didn't not mean to say it. Not even close.
I do say you have some valid points, and some not so valid points. At one point I even make an argument for why you more than others might feel aggrieved for not being seen to right away when you ask for assistance (by not having a mod awake when you were). If this is "taking a shot at you", you are too sensitive for your own good by some distance. I am also taking a shot at some posters that are fishing for you, frequently, btw. In case you missed that. I also do that in threads. I'm certainly not on your back and ignore those that angle for you.
I do find your personalisation of most issues (and jumping to conclusions) particularly grinding though, you are right about that bit.
Francois the Postman said:
I am not getting sensitve about it but I am just saying that it is unfair in some of your points that you are pointing the finger at me. I think on this forum, you and I are going to disagree. It started in the Euskatel thread and has kept on going. I am all cool with it. My point was with this thread is to start some friendly discussion on how this place could be better so there is freindly discussion and to get rid of or moderate the uneeded mud slinging in certain threads. It was also to partly have a whinge about a certain moderator but I have made my point on that.
auscyclefan94 said:
I just reread the OP. If that was your way of starting a "friendly" discussion (dripping with woe-me and grumpy smilie included) (and later admitting you were indeed wilfully trolling), your way "to drag friendly into the room" isn't my way.
You frequently call foul for being battered, whilst battering. That I find annoying. You have seriously derailed threads, and applauded those that derailed a thread and broke forum rules whilst (now) asking for model poster behaviour. That I find bemusing.
It doesn't invalidate your points, but I find it much easier to hear people plead for less inflammatory posting if they weren't quick to light the matches themselves at times.
At you best you are a good, constructive and entertaining poster. You do have an alter ego too, however. Something you admit yourself, but take issue with people who echo that same sentiment (it seems). I'd like to see more of the first, but lately you have been veering frequently to the latter. I get that frustration plays a part in that, but I have less sympathy for those that become disruptive than those that keep rising above it. You set out to be disruptive AND complain about being told not to. It's a bit rich for me.
It also sounds like you made your mind up about "we disagree", which seems odd, as we agree and disagree frequently. I also both speak up for you and against you, if a situation calls for it, depending on circumstances as I see them and find them.
You keep complaining that I am fingering you, mentioned you and addressed you, in a thread you started about an issue you had. Most of my post was utterly general. Some of it was addressing you and the situation(s) you raised and caused that were relevant. Now you feel victimised. Good grief.
I am blunt and outspoken, but it does seem you pick up on the moments "against you" with far more ease than the moments "for you".
It does mean that (like in the piece above), you are likely to continue to read "personal attack" things that were never said in the first place, probably adding to the feeling that "we disagree" or that there is some personal grudge thing going on. If I can't stop you from personalizing things that aren't personal, so be it.
My last comment too here, I have made my case about my feelings regarding moderation. The effect that has on you is not that important to me.
Francois the Postman said:
All of your points were well thought out and warranted as are all of your posts. The content you provide on any topic is illuminating and welcomed. Speaking as one of the "prolific" members of this forum, I recognize the validity in what you are saying. I have been a member of many forums, but unlike you, have seen the character of banter here in just about every forum I visit regardless of topic. Maybe there are forums where there is no baiting, and the flames never rise, but for the most part, those are the exception, not the rule.
All of that being said, it appears that the moderators are becoming more active. I welcome that as many times the arguments would stop much sooner. I will freely admit to engaging in bait and retort with some members of this forum. It happens.
As for ACF, you are being baited right now, and are engaging in a back and forth with someone who isn't interested in discussing this in rational honest terms. The fact that he appears incapable of stopping and assessing his behavior which you have so accurately described should tell you something about the person to whom you address. In this case, he is whining because he was called on the content of his posts. One way to deal with that is to use the methods of a child and point to the instance of the similar behavior of another that was not punished. The other way is to accept the admonishment only in relation to your behavior, and move on. I have been moderated many times, and I cannot think is a single instance where I didn't deserve it. In fact, I deserve it many times and don't receive it. Over the past 8 months, I have tried to change that some. Many times, I will write a post and immediately delete it, or never hit the "submit reply" button.
All in all, I think this forum is moderated pretty fairly. It could use a few more moderators to keep things in check, but for the most part, it still functions pretty well. One should note however, that we are in our "silly season" here, and the level of banter and thread topic is going to diminish. The fact of the matter is that every year around the Tour, this happens. I am not relating anything but facts, as after years of posing on cycling forums, it just works that way. Following August, things will return to a more level tone, and those of us who post here year round will continue to keep the discussion on any given topic alive...actually, I will probably not be involved much at all, but I start law school in the middle of august, and 1L's don't usually have time to eat, much less discuss cycling on a forum. I for one will miss it.
Some moderators take a highly interpretive view of the rules. This personal bias justifies censoring that which offends/disagree with their worldview. Hence the flourishing Lance Armstrong hatemongering on CN boards, and simultaneous censorship of Alberto Contador playful teasing in the form of a David Letterman Top 10. The result is contributor orthodoxy. In a way, advertisers prefer sheeple without critical thinking skills - it sure makes selling products easier - you just tell them to buy it. But I've got better things to do with my time than comment on a forum where differences of opinion, particularly those humorously expressed, are disallowed under the charge of fomenting hatred. Puhleeze.
Susan Westemeyer
Retired Moderator
warmfuzzies said:
I did not interpret it as "playful teasing".
And for the record, I have never been told to write, delete or alter anything in any of my work for Cyclingnews because of an advertiser. I have been told from others in cycling that this website is considered to have outstanding editorial independence in relation to its advertisers.
Susan
warmfuzzies said:
About halfway through this post you sort of wandered off aimlessly. Advertisers don't give a flip what is actually being said on these boards! All they care about is getting in front of the right audience in sufficient numbers. You unfortunately don't get the right to determine whether your posts are funny or not. The audience does. I haven't read anything you posted so I don't know. Saying AC doesn't get 'teased' is ridiculous, but yes, Lance gets loads more scorn heaped on him. But then again, consider for a moment that that COULD just happen because he has earned it?
NOTE: ....The ads keep telling me to buy, and yet I don't. Why?
warmfuzzies said:
On the contrary, because of the number of Armstrong related advertisements on this site, your theory breaks down. I would suggest that if there is an anti-Lance bias, it runs counter to the profit motives you suggest are influencing the moderation.
No, the reality is that the majority of people who come here to defend Armstrong do so with formulaic responses and baiting posts. A good example would be your post. You have no intention of honestly discussing the topic of this thread. You came here to throw out a few baited hooks and see what bites. I am sure that many of you who do this are reasonable people fully capable of discussing cycling from your perspective without trolling. However, there are few of people who hold your opinion of Armstrong who do, especially this time of year.
Go or stay as you wish. I invite you to stay, drop the facade, and present your thoughts.
Thoughtforfood said:
Thoughtforfood said:
Wow, your assesing someones character over the forum. Good for you buddy. I was just making a point about how Moderation was not right and admitted that I have added to the problem by baiting but I am not a hypocrite for calling a moderator on a wrong(s).
btw, good luck with law school. We have so many lawyers or law students on here. Cycling fans or cyclists that I know either on here or in the "real world" are all highly intelligent people.
SpartacusRox
BANNED
CycloErgoSum said:
get a life mate, this is a cycling forum not a place where you come to play the bleeding heart. Chill out and go ride your bike for a while. Stupidity needs to be moderated.
SpartacusRox
BANNED
auscyclefan94 said:
Whats the difference between a lawyer and a catfish???...Ones a bottom feeding muck dweller, the others a fish.
SpartacusRox said:
If they do that, it would shut the board down. Every one of us would be guilty of multiple infractions!
Barrus
BANNED
this is a quote from Alpe d'Huez in the "official LA thread"
Is it not better to put this in a sticky or something, or somewhere where it is very visible and make it count across the board. Perhaps it will raise the civility a little, at both sides
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