Without wanting to delve into topics for another forum, David Moncoutie would be my pick. To win two Tour Stages, multiple Vuelta King of Mountains, and 11th at the 2002 Tour, while by all accounts riding totally clean is an extraordinary achievement.
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Re: Re:
And it isn't that people rate him very low, it's just that people don't talk about him cause he was no example of exciting racing.
Yeah I honestly have trouble rating him. For what he rode, I think he overachieved, he was overly Tour centric indeed.therhodeo said:
And it isn't that people rate him very low, it's just that people don't talk about him cause he was no example of exciting racing.
Ludo Peeters
You never hear about him anymore
1977
Paris–Brussels
1978
Tour de Luxembourg
1979
Paris–Brussels
1980
Scheldeprijs Vlaanderen
Tour de France:
Winner stage 14
8th place overall classification
1982
Rund um den Henninger Turm
Tour de France: Winner stage 1
yellow jersey for one day
1983
Rund um den Henninger Turm
Paris–Tours
1984
Scheldeprijs Vlaanderen
Tour de France: yellow jersey for one day
1985
Zürich-Metzgete
Paris–Tours
Tour of Belgium
1986
Tour de France:Winner stage 7
1987
Kuurne–Brussels–Kuurne
You never hear about him anymore
1977
Paris–Brussels
1978
Tour de Luxembourg
1979
Paris–Brussels
1980
Scheldeprijs Vlaanderen
Tour de France:
Winner stage 14
8th place overall classification
1982
Rund um den Henninger Turm
Tour de France: Winner stage 1
yellow jersey for one day
1983
Rund um den Henninger Turm
Paris–Tours
1984
Scheldeprijs Vlaanderen
Tour de France: yellow jersey for one day
1985
Zürich-Metzgete
Paris–Tours
Tour of Belgium
1986
Tour de France:Winner stage 7
1987
Kuurne–Brussels–Kuurne
Re: Re:
Tour centric costed him a lot. Luckily, biological passport started since 2010 and he won his yellow jersey on 2011.
All the end, he won 2 most important races in the world WC (except ORR) and TDF before retire.
He is underrated.
The ways that Cadel won WC, FW and Strade Bianche are quite interesting.Red Rick said:
Tour centric costed him a lot. Luckily, biological passport started since 2010 and he won his yellow jersey on 2011.
All the end, he won 2 most important races in the world WC (except ORR) and TDF before retire.
He is underrated.
Re: Re:
People see him as a Tour-centric rider, and that is why I think he is under-rated.
He showed remarkable longevity, versatility (stage races, one day races, Grand Tours and ITT).
Look at one of the early years of his career:
2002
4th TDU including one stage win
10th P-N include second on Col d'Eze
3rd Settimana Coppi Bartali
6th Pais Vasco
3rd Romandie
14th Giro including 2nd and 3rd in successive stages
He is world famous because of his Tour win, but I think it is unfair to say he focused too much on La Grande Boucle.
I assume the years people think he focused too much on France were the years 2006 to 2012 inclusive.
2006 4th in the Tour, but he also won Romandie, 2nd in Pologne, 8th in Pais Vasco, 7th in California and 10th in Suisse.
2007 2nd in the Tour, but he also was 2nd in Dauphine, 5th in Vuelta, 5th in WCRR, 6th in Lombardia, 4th in Romandie and 7th in Paris Nice
2008 2nd in the Tour, but he was also 2nd in Pais Vasco, 2nd in Dauphine, 2nd in Fleche Wallone, 7th in Liege, winner of Coppi Bartali, 3rd in Ruta del Sol
2009 disastrous Tour, but he won the WCRR, 3rd in Vuelta, 2nd in Dauphine, 3rd in Pais Vasco and 10th in Lombardia.
2010 another tough Tour, but he was suffering from his early season exertions, including winner of Fleche Wallone, 5th in the Giro (won stage and points jersey), 4th in Liege, 3rd in Tirreno
2011 won the Tour, after winning Tirreno, Romandie, 2nd in Dauphine and 7th in Catalunya.
2012 is the only year I would see that his Tour focus likely cost him other wins.
Two years after his Tour win, in 2013, he went to Italy and came third in the Giro. And even when his powers were flagging, he still went and rode very enterprisingly in the Giro of 2014. He was not in the top 10 climbers in the race, yet came 8th because of attacking racing when he had the chance, and gritting his teeth when he was under pressure.
He clearly is not in the elite of GT winners, but I get the impression he is thought of as down in the lower quartile of winners, in spite of the breadth and depth of his results.
Red Rick said:
People see him as a Tour-centric rider, and that is why I think he is under-rated.
He showed remarkable longevity, versatility (stage races, one day races, Grand Tours and ITT).
Look at one of the early years of his career:
2002
4th TDU including one stage win
10th P-N include second on Col d'Eze
3rd Settimana Coppi Bartali
6th Pais Vasco
3rd Romandie
14th Giro including 2nd and 3rd in successive stages
He is world famous because of his Tour win, but I think it is unfair to say he focused too much on La Grande Boucle.
I assume the years people think he focused too much on France were the years 2006 to 2012 inclusive.
2006 4th in the Tour, but he also won Romandie, 2nd in Pologne, 8th in Pais Vasco, 7th in California and 10th in Suisse.
2007 2nd in the Tour, but he also was 2nd in Dauphine, 5th in Vuelta, 5th in WCRR, 6th in Lombardia, 4th in Romandie and 7th in Paris Nice
2008 2nd in the Tour, but he was also 2nd in Pais Vasco, 2nd in Dauphine, 2nd in Fleche Wallone, 7th in Liege, winner of Coppi Bartali, 3rd in Ruta del Sol
2009 disastrous Tour, but he won the WCRR, 3rd in Vuelta, 2nd in Dauphine, 3rd in Pais Vasco and 10th in Lombardia.
2010 another tough Tour, but he was suffering from his early season exertions, including winner of Fleche Wallone, 5th in the Giro (won stage and points jersey), 4th in Liege, 3rd in Tirreno
2011 won the Tour, after winning Tirreno, Romandie, 2nd in Dauphine and 7th in Catalunya.
2012 is the only year I would see that his Tour focus likely cost him other wins.
Two years after his Tour win, in 2013, he went to Italy and came third in the Giro. And even when his powers were flagging, he still went and rode very enterprisingly in the Giro of 2014. He was not in the top 10 climbers in the race, yet came 8th because of attacking racing when he had the chance, and gritting his teeth when he was under pressure.
He clearly is not in the elite of GT winners, but I get the impression he is thought of as down in the lower quartile of winners, in spite of the breadth and depth of his results.
Re:
Gerrans is another rider who I really do not know how others would rate. I'm sure many do not think of him often or think of him negatively. As a fan I would say he is underrated. He was (is?) the type who was either winning or invisible, and I do not mean to accuse him of wheelsucking. Gerrans was (is?) excellent at identifying and placing himself in situations where he could win. In general I think critiquing a rider for wheelsucking is very silly and not something to get worked up about.
Gerrans was very successful with what I would call a limiting skillset, in that he may have been too versatile. Although having a good finish never hurts. Too bad him and Matthews did not get a long, Matthews might have learned a lot. I don't know why BMC signed him (although it does seem like a very BMC thing to do) and while they do not have many young riders or riders similar to Gerrans, hopefully he is able to impart some tactical knowledge to them.
Anderis said:
Gerrans is another rider who I really do not know how others would rate. I'm sure many do not think of him often or think of him negatively. As a fan I would say he is underrated. He was (is?) the type who was either winning or invisible, and I do not mean to accuse him of wheelsucking. Gerrans was (is?) excellent at identifying and placing himself in situations where he could win. In general I think critiquing a rider for wheelsucking is very silly and not something to get worked up about.
Gerrans was very successful with what I would call a limiting skillset, in that he may have been too versatile. Although having a good finish never hurts. Too bad him and Matthews did not get a long, Matthews might have learned a lot. I don't know why BMC signed him (although it does seem like a very BMC thing to do) and while they do not have many young riders or riders similar to Gerrans, hopefully he is able to impart some tactical knowledge to them.
Re: Re:
Without getting into clinic issues, just a correction, the bio passport started being fully used in January 2008
That's highly debatable. It depends on where you're from. The Olympic Road Race is maybe the best example as, depending on country, fan opinion of it ranges from the most valuable race on the calendar to completely unimportant.
In some countries, the Olympics are a huge thing. In others they're barely worth mentioning. Race importance is relative.
toolittle said:
Without getting into clinic issues, just a correction, the bio passport started being fully used in January 2008
toolittle said:
That's highly debatable. It depends on where you're from. The Olympic Road Race is maybe the best example as, depending on country, fan opinion of it ranges from the most valuable race on the calendar to completely unimportant.
In some countries, the Olympics are a huge thing. In others they're barely worth mentioning. Race importance is relative.
Re:
Great nomination, but in my view short of The Fons. Still, a fantastic rider...that's why I put Tchmill out there. Heck, Duclos or Madiot are also forgotten: winning a PR is HUGE, two is a thing of legend.classic1 said:
Damiano Cunego. A Giro win, a triple winner in Il Lombardia. Winner of the Amstel Gold. 2nd at the Worlds. The Italian Valverde if you will, apart from the fact that he peaked at 22.
He seems like a relic from a bygone era, but he's still riding for the next 6 weeks.
He seems like a relic from a bygone era, but he's still riding for the next 6 weeks.
Cunego was great and loved to use him in the cycling games. Wish he could have won tour de Suisse or the king of the mountains in the giro. I wonder what would have happened if he left lampre after the 2012 season or went for his chances in that giro.
Re: Re:
Great post. I was going to write something along all of these lines, but certainly not so extensively.
Basically Evans focused on the Tour less than many other riders, and he had every right to focus on it, being one of the best GT riders in the world for many years, and he was also a better time trialler than climber.
We are not talking about Mikel Landa here.
Evans showed great Tour promise in 2005, and given the somewhat changing of the guard, could have hoped to aim for a podium in 2006 (even before Operation Puerto). After that 5th or 4th place, it was pretty obvious to try again in 2007 with another ITT heavy parcours, when he almost won. Obviously he would try again in 2008, and subsequently in 2009.
Maybe he could have ridden the Vuelta more, but back then not many riders rode both the Tour and Vuelta for GC.
He focused on the Giro in 2002, 2010 and 2013, even though those mountains probably weren't as suited to him as those in France.
Contador (generally seen as the GT rider with the most variety of focus) only focused on the Giro once (2015). In 2008 and 2011 there were other factors which made him race the Giro.
I would be asking the question of, "Why did you focus so much on the Tour?" to someone like Beloki. He was a slightly better climber than time trialler, and was banging his head against a brick wall going against Lance and Jan. He seems an obvious candidate to have spared at least one of his prime years on a tilt at a Giro-Vuelta double.
barmaher said:
Great post. I was going to write something along all of these lines, but certainly not so extensively.
Basically Evans focused on the Tour less than many other riders, and he had every right to focus on it, being one of the best GT riders in the world for many years, and he was also a better time trialler than climber.
We are not talking about Mikel Landa here.
Evans showed great Tour promise in 2005, and given the somewhat changing of the guard, could have hoped to aim for a podium in 2006 (even before Operation Puerto). After that 5th or 4th place, it was pretty obvious to try again in 2007 with another ITT heavy parcours, when he almost won. Obviously he would try again in 2008, and subsequently in 2009.
Maybe he could have ridden the Vuelta more, but back then not many riders rode both the Tour and Vuelta for GC.
He focused on the Giro in 2002, 2010 and 2013, even though those mountains probably weren't as suited to him as those in France.
Contador (generally seen as the GT rider with the most variety of focus) only focused on the Giro once (2015). In 2008 and 2011 there were other factors which made him race the Giro.
I would be asking the question of, "Why did you focus so much on the Tour?" to someone like Beloki. He was a slightly better climber than time trialler, and was banging his head against a brick wall going against Lance and Jan. He seems an obvious candidate to have spared at least one of his prime years on a tilt at a Giro-Vuelta double.
Re:
Agreed. Man i miss the old Cunego. My saddest moment watching cycling, was him losing to leiphemer in the Tour de Suisse.
Red Rick said:
Agreed. Man i miss the old Cunego. My saddest moment watching cycling, was him losing to leiphemer in the Tour de Suisse.
Re: Re:
On the other hand though, that was one of the most hilarious threads on this forum.Frankschleck said:
People keep referencing that. Is it true the forum was actually down with so many posting about it?
Re:
Nah, people kept posting after Levi's win. You can find the reactions here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14095&hilit=suisse&start=380
But my favorite part about this race is this post:
This dude is a huge Cav fan and he was excited about the possibility of GB bringing another rider to the WC in Copenhagen. It turns out that Froome did not get any WT points in Switzerland, but he got a lot of WT points later in the year during some race in Spain.
GuyIncognito said:
Nah, people kept posting after Levi's win. You can find the reactions here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14095&hilit=suisse&start=380
But my favorite part about this race is this post:
Waterloo Sunrise said:
This dude is a huge Cav fan and he was excited about the possibility of GB bringing another rider to the WC in Copenhagen. It turns out that Froome did not get any WT points in Switzerland, but he got a lot of WT points later in the year during some race in Spain.
This is a good shout. El Relojero would have won a couple of GTs if he'd come around ten years later when the Vuelta was becoming more mountainous and Fuente and Ocaña were stars. I also would like to nominate a couple of other Spanish pioneers, Jesús Loroño and José Pérez Francés, who don't get the credit they deserve either, but both were held back by internal rivalries and temperament and coming around at a time when the Vuelta was not certain about its own identity and actively tailored itself against the home riders. There are a lot of people who'd have been big stars if they had been born in another era, among GT types Tonton is right that I would mention Sergey Sukhoruchenkov, a man whose existing palmarès - which was formidable - was massively truncated due to being the wrong side of the wall to do a) the biggest races, and b) the races which suited him, and also Ramón Hoyos - the man the aforementioned Julio Jiménez described as the greatest climber in world cycling at the time, but who was too early to enjoy the Colombian national awakening as a cycling country. Even when they were awoken, Parra gets all too often forgotten beneath the sensation that was Lucho.KyoGrey said:
And considering he's won four of the five races now known as the Monuments, as well as Flèche Wallonne, far too many people have forgotten about Germain Derycke.
Not underrated, but someone I think could achieve more if he had the mentality for it - Thomas De Gendt.
Re:
I think given his characteristics, his career ceiling would be to get a Voeckler-type long run in a grand tour leader jersey, or do a Jacky Durand and manage to pull off one of his breaks in a monument or major classic. If he isn’t in the break all the way to the finish, his current team are too full of better finishers (Greipel, Benoot, Wellens etc) for him to not have to be working for them in the last 20km.
I think De Gendt wins as much as his talent allows. As a non-sprinter, getting in breaks and trying to outlast everyone else in them is his best chance. He’s popular because he spends a lot of time in breaks animating races, but if he spent less time out front, he wouldn’t win as much.Parker said:
I think given his characteristics, his career ceiling would be to get a Voeckler-type long run in a grand tour leader jersey, or do a Jacky Durand and manage to pull off one of his breaks in a monument or major classic. If he isn’t in the break all the way to the finish, his current team are too full of better finishers (Greipel, Benoot, Wellens etc) for him to not have to be working for them in the last 20km.
Re: Re:
The guy was on the podium in the Giro in 2012. The year before he was third (or second) on the final TT in the Tour which he followed up by a ride with the likes of Andy Schleck up Alpe d'Huez without being a GC guy. Those performances show that he has a very good recovery and could have become a GC rider which he has never been able to make enough sacrifices for.
Leinster said:
The guy was on the podium in the Giro in 2012. The year before he was third (or second) on the final TT in the Tour which he followed up by a ride with the likes of Andy Schleck up Alpe d'Huez without being a GC guy. Those performances show that he has a very good recovery and could have become a GC rider which he has never been able to make enough sacrifices for.
Probably, but not better than Van den Broeck (which was very promising, but also had bad luck) and whats the point then? Surely he's won as much as he probably could with the talent available, riders of his characteristics don't win many bike races if they win at all. I think he chose the correct path, altho he maybe could have earned more money going for GC in his prime for a few years.
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