Motor doping thread

[prawny]

Not that I’ve seen, watching the end of the race from Ronse now, first one he hasn’t won, no bottle, at least not at the end.

 

[sniper]

VdPoel is interesting.

Maybe Van Aert has been warned to take it down a notch, after singlehandedly having created three or four youtube classics and now starring in all sorts of 'best of' compilations.

Meanwhile has any journo tried to talk to Femke or her family?
If Van Aerts was using a motor, and we know Femke was, maybe we're looking at more structural involvement of Belgian officials and/or coaches in facilitating motor use?

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

VdPoel is interesting.

Maybe Van Aert has been warned to take it down a notch, after singlehandedly having created three or four youtube classics and now starring in all sorts of 'best of' compilations.

Meanwhile has any journo tried to talk to Femke or her family?
If Van Aerts was using a motor, and we know Femke was, maybe we're looking at more structural involvement of Belgian officials and/or coaches in facilitating motor use?

I stopped watching CX. Too unbelievable.

Barely watched RR this year.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Getting back to this:

was watching Ventoux 2000 last night and noticed this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNcgE4iakJc go to 1:55:12

Lance does a strange motion where he either touches his left thigh or touches under the saddle, it's hard to tell. is he pushing a button?

...

1999 Sestriere. Go to 8:16-ish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6hM9ejMiAk

2003 Luz Ardiden.
Watch from the start. He falls, gets up on his bike, is pushed back in motion, and first thing he does is grab or adjust something under the saddle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEqQW1-casM

Another one from Ventoux 2000.
First radio contact, then goes (or seems to go) for the saddle, and then makes the jump.
Watch from the start and preferably slo-mo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwkndsmCIdU

Somebody on youtube made a compilation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1HPOiYY-yo

Not sure if it contains all the examples listed above, but it's rather compelling all the same.

What is more, in the movie The Program there is a scene on the Sestriere in 1999 where the mechanic leans out of the car and appears to click/trigger something under Lance's saddle (and then sets the rear derailleur). After that the camera zooms in on Lance's face and you see him smile rather theatrically. It just looks there like Frears is hinting at something. It's a very odd detail to add to the movie. The scene doesn't seem to have any other cinematographic/story-telling value.

 

[deValtos]

As Phil/Paul say it honestly just does look like a nervous twitch.

 

[sniper]

The commentary is indeed interesting: "weird", "everytime he rides a time trial".

But if it's honestly just a nervous twitch, it shouldn't be difficult to find examples predating 1999.

Take your time

 

[roundabout]

Re:

As Phil/Paul say it honestly just does look like a nervous twitch.

No, it's 'rather compelling' when he obviously doesn't even touch the saddle in the Alpe d'Huez clip.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

So no examples of him doing it pre-1999, or just at the start of a race, or even mid-race sitting in the peloton?
Only in time trials and MTFs?
Should be easy to find if it's just a nevous twitch.
Don't worry, take your time.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

As Phil/Paul say it honestly just does look like a nervous twitch.

No, it's 'rather compelling' when he obviously doesn't even touch the saddle in the Alpe d'Huez clip.

Thanks for confirming he does seem to touch the saddle in the remaining 5-6 examples.

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

As Phil/Paul say it honestly just does look like a nervous twitch.

No, it's 'rather compelling' when he obviously doesn't even touch the saddle in the Alpe d'Huez clip.

Thanks for confirming he does seem to touch the saddle in the remaining 5-6 examples.

No, I confirmed nothing about the other examples so don't try twisting what I wrote.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I don't know why you wrote anything at all to be honest.
If you were merely pointing out that he doesnt touch the saddle in the AlpeDhuez clip, you used an awful lot of unnecessary space.
If otoh you were trying to make a coherent argument about this being an innocent nervous twitch, you (and DeValtos) still have some work to do.
I think many would welcome your efforts.
Would be great to see examples of him twitching nervously pre-1999, or in slow parts of a race where he's just sitting in the peloton. Would be great if we could put this to bed. Don't give up so easily.

 

[Ricco']

Re: Re:

Has anyone else noticed that Mathieu VdP is the only one using a bottle in the CX so far this season?

Has he ever tried to drink from it?

Yes, plenty of times. And on most races he usually throws it away near the end of the race. I've noticed it too and it isn't only VdP. Van Aert also carried a bottle today in Zonhoven and yesterday too (he even discharged plenty of liquid on the finish line on some lap). And I recall other riders using one (I think it was Sweeck a.o.).

Don't forget that there is some heat in Belgium atm. Today AccuWeather has 25º (with 29º real feel) for Zonhoven and at least the Beobank guys were seen with ice vests before the start.

 

[Tienus]

Phil Liggett commentating on Contador's bike changes in the 2011 Giro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cDbNJMwxWY

 

[sniper]

Re:

Phil Liggett commentating on Contador's bike changes in the 2011 Giro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cDbNJMwxWY

Beautiful.
They're being tongue-in-cheek obviously, yet they're unable to come up with a better explanation.
A case of reality and hilarity colliding, or merging. Kind of.

 

[CTQ]

Re:

Phil Liggett commentating on Contador's bike changes in the 2011 Giro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cDbNJMwxWY

i believe this is Sean Kelly not Liggett

 

[jmdirt]

That seems too conscious/exerted to be a nervous twitch, but he doesn't seem to get his hand all the way to the saddle either (maybe just to the very edge). That doesn't rule out a switch in his chamois though I guess.

Of course my question is why would LA admit to doping, but not to motor use? By asking that I'm not by any means saying that he didn't use a motor.

TH also said that he was not aware of any motor use at postal. So same Q, why would he admit to doping, and point the finger at others, but not admit to motors? He did say that he 'wasn't aware', and that's not the same as saying there weren't any motors.

Other than establishing a timeline, arguing about 1999 isn't going to move the conversation forward because if racers were using motors then, it was the ST/BB motor that we can all buy so there is nothing ground breaking.

 

[Marxten]

In his book, Tyler often pointed out that while he and Lance were mostly on the same level during build up, at the Tour Lance would jump up another level. He likened it to another circle within the inner circle of Postal.

After pointing out that he didn't know how, he can hardly claim that Lance never used motors.

@Jimdirt
At the moment, only the seattube/bb motor has been confirmed as used in competition. The hub motor is a possibility, but we still don't know since when (if at all, there's still loads of possibility and plausible deniability on chemical enhancements. Can't claim that you didn't know if you get caught with a motor)
I do share your sentiment that speaking about the more distant past doesn't really impact the discussion about the present.

 

[sniper]

Of course it could massively impact the present.
If Lance or Floyd or Rasmussen would be exposed as a motor doper it could put a lot of things in motion regarding present-day motordoping. It could be a real dam breaker.
The least we can do in here is draw attention to certain phenomena and hope some journo with a bit of an appetite reads this stuff and decides to start investigating.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

Of course it could massively impact the present.
If Lance or Floyd or Rasmussen would be exposed as a motor doper it could put a lot of things in motion regarding present-day motordoping. It could be a real dam breaker.
The least we can do in here is draw attention to certain phenomena and hope some journo with a bit of an appetite reads this stuff and decides to start investigating.

so you mean the big whistleblowers like Dekker Landis Rasmussen could keep the omertà on motor-doping?

I'd like to ask Aitor Gonzalez if he heard about motors. he's in jail now, nothing to lose. same for Bobridge, they could both speak freely.
if motor were used, would the peloton know it?
what do riders talk about behind closed doors?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Of course it could massively impact the present.
If Lance or Floyd or Rasmussen would be exposed as a motor doper it could put a lot of things in motion regarding present-day motordoping. It could be a real dam breaker.
The least we can do in here is draw attention to certain phenomena and hope some journo with a bit of an appetite reads this stuff and decides to start investigating.

so you mean the big whistleblowers like Dekker Landis Rasmussen could keep the omertà on motor-doping?

Yeah, definitely. All of them had clear incentives to speak about doping. But I don't see a single incentive for them to blab about motors.
And you may add Jaksche here. Very suspect for motors in my view in his time riding for Riis while working closely together with SRM founder Uli Schoberer.

I'd like to ask Aitor Gonzalez if he heard about motors. he's in jail now, nothing to lose. same for Bobridge, they could both speak freely.?

Great idea. And there are many others who would be worth contacting. But as I said a few posts back, the journos have no appetite, or if they do they clearly don't know where to look (with very rare exceptions such as Thierry Vildary (Stade 2) and Marco Bonarrigo (Corriere della Sera) who did three or four reports on motors together).

if motor were used, would the peloton know it?

The peloton does know it. See upthread for ample exemplification.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

Of course it could massively impact the present.
If Lance or Floyd or Rasmussen would be exposed as a motor doper it could put a lot of things in motion regarding present-day motordoping. It could be a real dam breaker.
The least we can do in here is draw attention to certain phenomena and hope some journo with a bit of an appetite reads this stuff and decides to start investigating.

so you mean the big whistleblowers like Dekker Landis Rasmussen could keep the omertà on motor-doping?

Yeah, definitely. All of them had clear incentives to speak about doping. But I don't see a single incentive for them to blab about motors.
And you may add Jaksche here. Very suspect for motors in my view in his time riding for Riis while working closely together with SRM founder Uli Schoberer.

I'd like to ask Aitor Gonzalez if he heard about motors. he's in jail now, nothing to lose. same for Bobridge, they could both speak freely.?

Great idea. And there are many others who would be worth contacting. But as I said a few posts back, the journos have no appetite, or if they do they clearly don't know where to look (with very rare exceptions such as Thierry Vildary (Stade 2) and Marco Bonarrigo (Corriere della Sera) who did three or four reports on motors together).

if motor were used, would the peloton know it?

The peloton does know it. See upthread for ample exemplification.

yep, I forgot him, and Thomas Frei and others I dont remember. but motor doping is such a hard topic they wouldnt want to admit? would they be even more relegated out of the environment if they spilled the beans?
that's what I would like to know
why, if really there are motors, dont they talk about that?
scared?
ashamed?
actually they have no clue at all?
maybe motor doping is still not real?

 

[Tienus]

yep, I forgot him, and Thomas Frei and others I dont remember. but motor doping is such a hard topic they wouldnt want to admit? would they be even more relegated out of the environment if they spilled the beans?
that's what I would like to know
why, if really there are motors, dont they talk about that?
scared?
ashamed?
actually they have no clue at all?
maybe motor doping is still not real?

You can also add Di Luca to that list. He actually did speak about motordoping but he was a bit vague. I wonder if it is a coincidence that according to him it started just after the years in which he had his best results.

http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/21-01-2014/ciclismo-luca-meglio-legalizzare-doping-prendono-tutti-ci-sono-pure-combine-202137332642.shtml?utm_source=notizie247&utm_medium=twitter
Com’è la storia delle bici col motore? È possibile?
"Certo che lo ritengo possibile".
Cioè? Spiegaci.
"Lo ritengo possibile perché c’era troppa differenza. Il doping non ti può dare quella differenza".
L’hai mai vista una bici col motore?
"Il motore so com’è fatto. Sono stati inventati credo 5/6 anni fa, si possono inserire dentro la bicicletta, quindi sono molto piccoli. Possano dare 150 watt di potenza".
E non se ne accorge nessuno? Non ci sono i controlli?
"Prima non si facevano perché non si sapeva. Quando si è iniziato a vociferare di questo motorino hanno iniziato".

 

[pastronef]

Re:

yep, I forgot him, and Thomas Frei and others I dont remember. but motor doping is such a hard topic they wouldnt want to admit? would they be even more relegated out of the environment if they spilled the beans?
that's what I would like to know
why, if really there are motors, dont they talk about that?
scared?
ashamed?
actually they have no clue at all?
maybe motor doping is still not real?

You can also add Di Luca to that list. He actually did speak about motordoping but he was a bit vague. I wonder if it is a coincidence that according to him it started just after the years in which he had his best results.

http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/21-01-2014/ciclismo-luca-meglio-legalizzare-doping-prendono-tutti-ci-sono-pure-combine-202137332642.shtml?utm_source=notizie247&utm_medium=twitter
Com’è la storia delle bici col motore? È possibile?
"Certo che lo ritengo possibile".
Cioè? Spiegaci.
"Lo ritengo possibile perché c’era troppa differenza. Il doping non ti può dare quella differenza".
L’hai mai vista una bici col motore?
"Il motore so com’è fatto. Sono stati inventati credo 5/6 anni fa, si possono inserire dentro la bicicletta, quindi sono molto piccoli. Possano dare 150 watt di potenza".
E non se ne accorge nessuno? Non ci sono i controlli?
"Prima non si facevano perché non si sapeva. Quando si è iniziato a vociferare di questo motorino hanno iniziato".

maybe they are scared about being sued for talking without facts?
or motors are less used than we think?
that's what does not add up.

Di Luca, Jaksche, Razy, would like, I think, to see pro-cycling crash down in flames. so why dont they talk if they know? they could talk not with journos but with national federations, or with police, french police, investigantin journos.
what I mean is: I am still waiting for something more real, not the weasel Varjas claiming to reveal stuff and not saying much everytime, and showing us old wheels and frames

 

[sniper]

Again, it's about incentives.

Has anybody in prosoccer ever blabbed about steroids? Does that mean prosocccer isn't riddled with it?

In protennis, has anybody ever talked about blood transfusions and EPO?

In the Clinic, has anybody ever talked about their sexual fantasies?

Etc.

And why would Ras and the others want to burn down cycling to the ground? Is there a precedent for that?
These are young lads with their lifes ahead of them.
If they blabbed about doping it's because they had good reasons to. And none of them has come even close to telling everything, not even about heir doping.

 

[Tienus]

Yannick Noah is an exception. He did not make his life any easier by bringing up doping.

http://www.insidetennis.com/2009/10/short-history-drugs-tennis/
But then in September ‘80, Yannick Noah broke the silence in an interview with Rock & Folk, the French equivalent of Rolling Stone. While admitting that he smoked hashish, Noah accused other players of using cocaine. What’s more — and in his opinion what was worse — some were popping amphetamines. This infuriated him because it put clean players at a disadvantage. He lamented that they might have to use coke or amphetamines to stay competitive with drug abusers. He wanted the problem to be brought into the open and discussed. If it weren’t, Noah feared there would be deaths from overdoses.
The reaction of tennis authorities and the press was to savage Noah for smoking hashish. His remarks about coke and speed were ignored, as were the players whom he said “take the hit during a tournament and crash afterward. You have guys who have played super during one tournament and who you’ve never seen again.”

He mentioned Bjorn Borg and Victor Pecci by name.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2011/11/yannick-noah-accuses-spanish-athletes-of-doping/32982/

I recall him writing about all tennis players doping but I cant find any reference to it now.

His son, a NBA player, was suspended for doping this year.