MP4OX. Who's on it already, and are they testing for it?

[Animal]

http://scienceblog.com/38006/sangar...n-therapeutic-agent-mp4ox-in-trauma-patients/

Seems like the drug companies don't even consider the possible misuse of drugs like this.

Are the testers testing for it yet?

 

[Benotti69]

seems ideal for endurance athletes

was effective at decreasing lactate levels in treated patients. During hemorrhagic shock, inadequate perfusion of critical organs can lead to insufficient oxygenation of tissues, which can be detected by an increase in lactate levels. MP4OX is a novel oxygen therapeutic agent that is designed to provide rapid oxygen delivery to ischemic tissues.

 

[Brian Butterfield]

This could be the new juice. BBC link:
New blood 'booster' tested in UK-led clinical trials

 

[veganrob]

Maybe some already are.
Sounds like "SKY" is the limit

 

[FitSsikS]

From what I have read the beauty of this product lies in the fact that it masks itself from being detected by the body's immune system.
I think by the nature of its (MP4OX = oxygenated pegylated hemoglobin) construction it would be very detectable in blood tests.
IMO of course.

 

[Benotti69]

Maybe some already are.
Sounds like "SKY" is the limit

I hope samples have been stored.

 

[python]

This is a relatively new substance in the well-known to wada class of doping products - hboc - haemoglobin-based oxygen carriers. The clinic’s old friend - hemopure - is an example. Wada labs are as familiar with hboc’s as tyler Hamilton was with edgar poe…

I am absolutely sure that developing a test, if it does not already exist, would not be a great challenge. The reason being that the chemistry of pegylation-delivered medicines is well understood and was successfully applied, for example, in developing the blood test for cera.

Another reason for my optimism is that haemoglobin substitutes molecules in general - and mp4ox does not seem an exception - are different in size from the native molecules when dissociated. This makes them easily detectable by several analytical techniques.

a professionally advised, sophisticated doper is not likely to use the crap.

in stead, they are likely to still use micro transfusions of own blood whilst keeping reticulocyctes from spiking by various altitude simulating protocols. as tyler told us, if for some reason glow time was overcooked, a speed bag of saline takes less than 15 minutes just BEFORE one submits to vampires. same old..

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

in stead, they are likely to still use micro transfusions of own blood whilst keeping reticulocyctes from spiking by various altitude simulating protocols. as tyler told us, if for some reason glow time was overcooked, a speed bag of saline takes less than 15 minutes just BEFORE one submits to vampires. same old..

Are you saying altitude keeps retics from spiking following withdrawal?

 

[python]

withdrawals are for blood storage (or in the extreme, emergency case - for quick knocking off high haematocrit in combination with saline infusion). retics would go up after blood deposits. but not fast enough for a professional rider to keep training loads. so, as tyler and others told us, they micro dose epo directly into their veins. according to tyler, ferrari advised armstrong to micro dose epo while he was sleeping in the altitude-simulating tent. the goal was to beat the epo test. the apparent design was that altitude-simulation would stimulate natural epo production, which is the may of masking the synthetic epo. (as is well known, the classic epo test was based on the differences between natural and synthetic epo electropherograms.

that's one application of the altitude tents for masking...

another, i hypothesized, would be to stimulate the retics following a downward spike due to a mini bb infusion during a race. it is well known that some rich teams bring to races altitude simulating equipment (including inside their team bus). that would make sense if the testers, as vaughters told us, had caught up with micro-epo in-vein methods.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Has the EPO-test improved since then?

The combination of increased natural cell production due to blood withdrawal and increased production due to exogenous EPO sounds a bit high retics-risky, no?

 

[python]

the epo test DEFINITELY improved since the introduction in 2000 and the first application in cycling in 2001.

without even knowing the latest supposedly confidential developments, the last open-source wada technical document on epo makes that absolutely clear.

though i still think it is beatable relatively easy, the key issue is not the 'goodness' of the test itself, but the random/surprise test window.

as long as the riders are untouchable during the 9 night hours, any epo test can be defeated...this is not to say that i ever advocated night intrusions.

the suspicious retics behaviour, though, is another matter. it is i understand traceable via cheap biopass tests (50 euro vs 500 euros for an epo test). but it is also easier to manipulate via altitude simulation particularly in the face of smaller fluctuations due to micro infusions..this is why ashenden, though highly suspicious, could not convince CAS of contador's bio-passport data.

 

[thehog]

Some video of the clinal trials here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5GxKr1XLtk&feature=related

 

[hiero2]

http://scienceblog.com/38006/sangar...n-therapeutic-agent-mp4ox-in-trauma-patients/

Seems like the drug companies don't even consider the possible misuse of drugs like this.

Are the testers testing for it yet?

While this is slightly off-topic, you are right about the drug companies. Oh, they surely CONSIDER the possible misuse, but all such considerations are a long way away from the top level of their motivations. Spoken as one who has seen them from the inside.

These guys - the drug companies - are seeking the monopoly profit of a new drug and application. Profit, massive profit is the successful result. That is motivation #1, period, no exceptions. The internal culture is in self-denial, but that is a cya self-preservation technique.

 

[Willy_Voet]

I am absolutely sure that developing a test, if it does not already exist, would not be a great challenge. The reason being that the chemistry of pegylation-delivered medicines is well understood and was successfully applied, for example, in developing the blood test for cera.

Probably as simple injecting it into a mass spec after some initial HPLC or separation.

 

[blackcat]

the epo test DEFINITELY improved since the introduction in 2000 and the first application in cycling in 2001.

without even knowing the latest supposedly confidential developments, the last open-source wada technical document on epo makes that absolutely clear.

though i still think it is beatable relatively easy, the key issue is not the 'goodness' of the test itself, but the random/surprise test window.

as long as the riders are untouchable during the 9 night hours, any epo test can be defeated...this is not to say that i ever advocated night intrusions.

the suspicious retics behaviour, though, is another matter. it is i understand traceable via cheap biopass tests (50 euro vs 500 euros for an epo test). but it is also easier to manipulate via altitude simulation particularly in the face of smaller fluctuations due to micro infusions..this is why ashenden, though highly suspicious, could not convince CAS of contador's bio-passport data.

python, what about the different manufacturers of EPO, will they show the same assay on the mass spec? I thought (layperson) that they did not. So hypothetically, you could microdose different brands in smaller doses together, and be more safe in the urine

 

[Willy_Voet]

python, what about the different manufacturers of EPO, will they show the same assay on the mass spec? I thought (layperson) that they did not. So hypothetically, you could microdose different brands in smaller doses together, and be more safe in the urine

Not to trump anything that python might have to say, but that is an interesting thought...

The different forms of EPO probably vary by a few amino acids on either end of the protein sequence. If you were microdosing 7 different forms in a mixture, that would be a mess to sort out by almost any analytical means. The different glycosylation products (cells add sugars as additional recognition units) add to the complexity of the mixture.

As I recall, the 1999 Lance Armstrong samples showed different bands that corresponded to the different glycosylation products of a single EPO type. If you multiply this by a factor of 4-7 (and effectively dilute the concentration by the same amount), you would have a hard time pinning this down in any assay.

That said, such a strategy would probably be quite expensive as you would need to (illegally) obtain all the different EPO forms from different manufacturers/suppliers. They may not all be approved in the US and/or EU, so it would involve sourcing from different countries.

 

[blackcat]

Not to trump anything that python might have to say, but that is an interesting thought...

The different forms of EPO probably vary by a few amino acids on either end of the protein sequence. If you were microdosing 7 different forms in a mixture, that would be a mess to sort out by almost any analytical means. The different glycosylation products (cells add sugars as additional recognition units) add to the complexity of the mixture.

As I recall, the 1999 Lance Armstrong samples showed different bands that corresponded to the different glycosylation products of a single EPO type. If you multiply this by a factor of 4-7 (and effectively dilute the concentration by the same amount), you would have a hard time pinning this down in any assay.

That said, such a strategy would probably be quite expensive as you would need to (illegally) obtain all the different EPO forms from different manufacturers/suppliers. They may not all be approved in the US and/or EU, so it would involve sourcing from different countries.

my theory came about when reading of the counterfeit "generic" erythropoietin, the chinese, russian, and other manufacture source countries. Not the "epo" that Dario Frigo bought at the airport. (That is, he thought he bought a pharmaceutical, not a saline solution in whatever ampoule packaging)

I read that the EPO variants from the Victor Conte outsource labs, looked different under the analysis. To me it seemed a ripe method to use a mixture of these forms.

The Russian and Chinese forms of EPO cant be that expensive.

Joe?

EPOsino?