My top ten, on talent

[AlfaLum]

He doesn't even have the palmares for those positions... If he crashes tomorrow and can't ride a bike anymore. Would you still have him on 1 or 2 in 20 years? No. So unless he gets the palmares to match the position, there's no reason to put him that high.

I think he has the palmares.

And what he definitely has is the domination he has shown during his active years during an era where the sport was not fully mondial but at least way more mondial than during the era’s of most riders mentioned above him.

You just cant value a Lombardia win in 1922 as high as you should value a current win.

 

[tobydawq]

He doesn't even have the palmares for those positions... If he crashes tomorrow and can't ride a bike anymore. Would you still have him on 1 or 2 in 20 years? No. So unless he gets the palmares to match the position, there's no reason to put him that high.

Of course I would.

 

[Berniece]

I think he has the palmares.

And what he definitely has is the domination he has shown during his active years during an era where the sport was not fully mondial but at least way more mondial than during the era’s of most riders mentioned above him.

You just cant value a Lombardia win in 1922 as high as you should value a current win.

The domination? A lot of the time his biggest competitors weren't even able to perform at their best due to crashes. He was lucky he could dominate.

 

[tobydawq]

The domination? A lot of the time his biggest competitors weren't even able to perform at their best due to crashes. He was lucky he could dominate.

Lol, yeah, right.

The guy is headed for his second consecutive season with five major wins.

 

[Jan the Man]

There is no way you can compare over generations. Everything is in reference to opposition at that time and you can't compare raw results/times due to different training methods and material. It's all gut feeling. There is no way of knowing whether Merckx would have dominated todays talents, or whether Jay Hindley would have won 5 Tours in the 50s.

I agree whole heartedly

 

[Berniece]

Lol, yeah, right.

The guy is headed for his second consecutive season with five major wins.

So?
2024: his biggest opponent for LBL crashed out, Giro just no opposition, TDF his biggest opponent had the worst prep
2025: his biggest opponent for De Ronde got sick in the week before, his biggest opponent for LBL had a bad prep

And this can be done for almost every season. He is the best rider in the peloton but his dominance is due to luck

 

[Charlyghoul]

Greg Lemond was an outlier from the US. He had to do most everything for himself on this continent because no American had. When he went to Europe he was not embraced like a Remco or Tadej by any specific team. His language barrier and Euro chavinism added to the difficulty along with having almost no American support on any team.
The fact that he submitted to La Vie Clare's machinations to give Hinault his last Tour win says it all. Then he had to hammer Bernard when he tried it again while being diplomatic to his team and sponsors. Your comparison isn't even relevant to the two; both great riders and racers. Both have been innovators but when you look at Lemond's wins; he brought a quantum leap in attention to aerodynamics and training to Europe, too.
That, and he started in a different era and would likely have 4 Tours had he not been injured.

Good stuff, in fact he probably has 5 tours if he doesn’t get injured and is allowed to attack Hinault.
And this with his disadvantages as you say, and with Fignon and Hinault in his era. Greg is underrated.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

If talent is natural aptitude, then it is probable that most of the "top ten most talented cyclists" are entirely unknown to us: whoever they are, they have great natural physical endurance, balance and reactions, but are statistically unlikely to have ever sat on a bike, at least not in a competitive context.

Everything beyond that is experience, dedication, responsiveness to training and opportunities, and luck. So even among those who are known to us as cyclists, only their performances while very young are not about training and experience, and among those whose performances when young were noteworthy, there will be variations unknown to us about the level of encouragement and opportunity they had while even younger that will skew the relevance of comparing such results.

So I would suggest that it is an entirely unanswerable question.

 

[tobydawq]

So?
2024: his biggest opponent for LBL crashed out, Giro just no opposition, TDF his biggest opponent had the worst prep
2025: his biggest opponent for De Ronde got sick in the week before, his biggest opponent for LBL had a bad prep

And this can be done for almost every season. He is the best rider in the peloton but his dominance is due to luck

You could probably do the same to everyone who ever won a race.

 

[Berniece]

You could probably do the same to everyone who ever won a race.

Yeah, that's literally what people do constantly on this forum. So that goes for every rider then.

 

[tobydawq]

Yeah, that's literally what people do constantly on this forum. So that goes for every rider then.

Which makes the argument invalid.

 

[Berniece]

Which makes the argument invalid.

Sure, so we look at palmares and he's still way behind others.

 

[Charlyghoul]

we could put remco higher than pog if we go by junior results.
We have to draw the line somewhere and results have to at least factor in.
As I said the list is not set in stone, I’m sorry if others don’t agree with it.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

So?
2024: his biggest opponent for LBL crashed out, Giro just no opposition, TDF his biggest opponent had the worst prep
2025: his biggest opponent for De Ronde got sick in the week before, his biggest opponent for LBL had a bad prep

And this can be done for almost every season. He is the best rider in the peloton but his dominance is due to luck

We need more people to speak out about this luck merchant

If roglic could stop crashing, vingegard could spend more time with his family, and remco could stop getting struck by lightning/waste energy delivering pizzas/getting crashed by reporters 100m after the finish, then pocagar would never win anything (except maybe one Flanders against a poorly MVDP.)

 

[tobydawq]

Sure, so we look at palmares and he's still way behind others.

Perhaps Merckx, but noone else has a clearcut better palmarès.

 

[tobydawq]

we could put remco higher than pog if we go by junior results.
We have to draw the line somewhere and results have to at least factor in.
As I said the list is not set in stone, I’m sorry if others don’t agree with it.

Did you expect others to agree with it?

 

[Charlyghoul]

Did you expect others to agree with it?

I don’t mind, it’s interesting what others think. Like philippe thys is a good one

 

[Berniece]

Perhaps Merckx, but noone else has a clearcut better palmarès.

Hinault

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pogacar:
GTs
TdF 4x - 21 stages
Giro - 6 stages
30 GT stage wins

Classics: Only monuments + WC (even if he has wins in other important classics like SB, AGR or FW)
GdL 4x
LBL 3x
RVV 2x
WC

There are probably 2 or 3 (I don't want to search) riders who have 15 major wins.
Let alone with Pogacar's age.

In this current era:
MVP - 8 wins
Roglic - 6 wins
Remco - 5 wins
Vingegaard- 2 wins

Edit: Hinault has 16 major wins so there are only 2 riders with more major wins than Pogacar. This might change in 2 months.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Absolutely, and this rings even truer given the differences between the watts/times today and ten years ago. I refuse to believe Contador and Froome would have been on par with like Almeida (or worse). You can only really judge people on their record, placed in the context of their own generation.

I still get shocked by Cancellara's winning speed in 2010 being OTL in 2024.

 

[StryderHells]

Sagan could win one

Sagan could win the Madison World Championship? Considering he never raced the event (that I could see), he’d get his head kicked in.

 

[Valv.Piti]

So?
2024: his biggest opponent for LBL crashed out, Giro just no opposition, TDF his biggest opponent had the worst prep
2025: his biggest opponent for De Ronde got sick in the week before, his biggest opponent for LBL had a bad prep

And this can be done for almost every season. He is the best rider in the peloton but his dominance is due to luck

My god, this is next level and very, very close to an ignore for my own mental health.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Sagan could win the Madison World Championship? Considering he never raced the event (that I could see), he’d get his head kicked in.

Well he was a mtber and road cyclist. He had a lot of the right attributes to cross over to the track.
Sagan had more chance of winning a madison than say, Wiggins winning a tour

 

[Charlyghoul]

Pogacar:
GTs
TdF 4x - 21 stages
Giro - 6 stages
30 GT stage wins

Classics: Only monuments + WC (even if he has wins in other important classics like SB, AGR or FW)
GdL 4x
LBL 3x
RVV 2x
WC

There are probably 2 or 3 (I don't want to search) riders who have 15 major wins.
Let alone with Pogacar's age.

In this current era:
MVP - 8 wins
Roglic - 6 wins
Remco - 5 wins
Vingegaard- 2 wins

Edit: Hinault has 16 major wins so there are only 2 riders with more major wins than Pogacar. This might change in 2 months.

3- Coppi has 17
Coppi also lost most of his prime years to war.

Bartali has 12, he lost even more of his prime than Coppi did.

 

[Peyroteo94]

3- Coppi has 17
Coppi also lost most of his prime years to war.

Bartali has 12, he lost even more of his prime than Coppi did.

Yes, you're right.