My top ten, on talent

[AlfaLum]

So?
2024: his biggest opponent for LBL crashed out, Giro just no opposition, TDF his biggest opponent had the worst prep
2025: his biggest opponent for De Ronde got sick in the week before, his biggest opponent for LBL had a bad prep

And this can be done for almost every season. He is the best rider in the peloton but his dominance is due to luck

He hardly has any opponents because he is so much better than the rest.

He just dominated the tour while being sick himself.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Yes, you're right.

My problem with putting Pogacar on the list is if I put him up too high, what if he retires soon?
If I leave him off altogether then that could be wrong too.
That’s why I put him where he is but with the statement that he is young and likely to go up.

Binda has 14, despite only riding the tour once, all of his wins are in Italy except for his 3 worlds.

 

[Peyroteo94]

My problem with putting Pogacar on the list is if I put him up too high, what if he retires soon?
If I leave him off altogether then that could be wrong too.
That’s why I put him where he is but with the statement that he is young and likely to go up.

Binda has 14, despite only riding the tour once, all of his wins are in Italy except for his 3 worlds.

Your list is based on talent or palmares?
In both, he should be in the top10.
Talent - Top3 (for me an obvious top1)
Palmares - maybe between 5-7

 

[Charlyghoul]

Your list is based on talent or palmares?
In both, he should be in the top10.
Talent - Top3 (for me an obvious top1)
Palmares - maybe between 5-7

Both
How is he an obvious top one when Coppi has won more and missed most of his prime?
Merckx won( a lot ) more?

Also, the hour record is a significant ‘win’, worth more than a Lombardy. Coppi, Merckx, Anquetil , Indurain all have one

 

[Red Lobster]

Both

Maybe you should fix the thread title then, otherwise this is prompting a lot of confusion.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Don’t forget, Pogacars early retirement talk seems somewhat genuine.
Even your Sean Kelly said in the same interview that he think Pog will retire early

 

[AmRacer]

responsiveness to training

Can you train up your responsiveness? If not, then it's talent.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Maybe you should fix the thread title then, otherwise this is prompting a lot of confusion.

It says already underneath that it is based somewhat on results, but secondary to talent. Sorry that the list is not perfect for you..
Remco is my top 1 for pure early talent 🙂
Much better junior than pog

 

[AmRacer]

Don’t forget, Pogacars early retirement talk seems somewhat genuine.
Even your Sean Kelly said in the same interview that he think Pog will retire early

And no one will ever beat Pogi's palmares.

 

[AmRacer]

It says already underneath that it is based somewhat on results, but secondary to talent. Sorry that the list is not perfect for you..
Remco is my top 1 for pure early talent 🙂
Much better junior than pog

Junior talent.

 

[Charlyghoul]

And no one will ever beat Pogi's palmares.

Several already have ?

 

[AmRacer]

Several already have ?

Nope, different eras. Worse competition back then and at Pogi's age.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Also talent is not mere physiology. If it were, someone like Nibali does not win nearly as much.
Roglic and Remco crash a lot because they came to cycling late, they don’t have the bike handling skills of riders that have been doing it since they were little kids.
Descending is an overlooked aspect of talent, based more on confidence and nerve than physiology.
Race awareness and when to attack, when to eat, same thing.
If Pog had better race craft he probably has 5 tours already and not 4.

 

[Red Lobster]

It says already underneath that it is based somewhat on results, but secondary to talent. Sorry that the list is not perfect for you..
Remco is my top 1 for pure early talent 🙂
Much better junior than pog

But even "early talent" is not the same as "talent". Lots of dominant juniors don't find massive success as pros. Always good to know the scope of the debate or else it is open to lots of moving goalposts.

 

[Charlyghoul]

But even "early talent" is not the same as "talent". Lots of dominant juniors don't find massive success as pros. Always good to know the scope of the debate or else it is open to lots of moving goalposts.

The list is focused on talent with results also.

If I said talent only, it’s probaly a list of one, Coppi. And I’m more of a Bartali fan than Coppi.

 

[Charlyghoul]

But even "early talent" is not the same as "talent". Lots of dominant juniors don't find massive success as pros. Always good to know the scope of the debate or else it is open to lots of moving goalposts.

I’m not even sure how to change the title, if it has to be ‘my top ten based on talent with results secondary’ it can make you feel better?
It takes 2 seconds to read the bit above the list where it says it takes in to account results…

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

The list is focused on talent with results also.

If I said talent only, it’s probaly a list of one, Coppi.

Your top ten would be a list of one?

And I’m more of a Bartali fan than Coppi.

Given their rivalry, I think everyone is more of a Bartali fan than Coppi.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Your top ten would be a list of one?


Given their rivalry, I think everyone is more a fan of Bartali fan than Coppi.

I just think he was more talented than anyone else, much as I admire Merckx for his sheer will to succeed.
If you read in to the history and look at results and see how much the war took from him, well that is my opinion.

 

[Charlyghoul]

The only reason Merckx is higher is because, again results are a factor, and Merckx dominates.
Bartali is higher because he lost even more of his prime than Coppi, but those two are very very close, almost a toss up really

 

[Charlyghoul]

The list has been amended, Coppi has overtaken Bartali by a nose. I will not allow sensibilities to affect the list, thank you for the impetus to reappraise the list.
Now Pog must pedal his heart out for a few more years and he joins the campionissimos

 

[AmRacer]

The list has been amended, Coppi has overtaken Bartali by a nose. I will not allow sensibilities to affect the list, thank you for the impetus to reappraise the list.
Now Pog must pedal his heart out for a few more years and he joins the campionissimos

Or WWIII, 😏

 

[Charlyghoul]

So if we go off Peyroteos qualifications, gts, monuments and worlds (not a bad basic criteria),
(I will include the hour record)
This puts Merckx on a huge 33! Wow!

But what about worlds time trials ? Are they as meaningful as the road race? If we extend that to the gp des nations, the worlds tt of its day, that puts Anquetil on 20, second to Merckx on results at least.

Does Jacques need bumping up the list? Or are time trials not so important?

 

[Copperberg]

The only reason Merckx is higher is because, again results are a factor, and Merckx dominates.
Bartali is higher because he lost even more of his prime than Coppi, but those two are very very close, almost a toss up really

I once saw a documentary on TV about Bartali and what he did during the war. He built a bicycle trailer big enough to hide persons. He first used rocks until the Italian soldiers stopped controlling him, after that he got rid of the stones and helped several persons escape, jews and others. He should top any list for that reason only..

 

[Charlyghoul]

I once saw a documentary on TV about Bartali and what he did during the war. He built a bicycle trailer big enough to hide persons. He first used rocks until the Italian soldiers stopped controlling him, after that he got rid of the stones and helped several persons escape, jews and others. He should top any list for that reason only..

Gino is a legend , along with Charly one of my favourites

 

[Charlyghoul]

Gino did all that and won the tour again at 34 years. 34 was ancient in those days for any sport