National Football League

[ToreBear]

Meanwhile, Johnny Football looked pretty good. We have to temper that knowing he wasn't playing against Suh or Fairly or any of the Lions first stringers, but he didn't have the first string offense either. He played a little better than Hoyer, and made some nice plays and no big mistakes. He showed most of all a good football instinct for making quick decisions.

Yep looks like it, though the way he was running, the question might be how healthy he will remain.

Though I was more impressed with Kellen Moore. He got a 131.1 qb rating as the third string qb, while Orlovsky got 61,7. Of course Orlovsky was playing with mostly second stringers the whole time against first stringers some of the time. Still he didn't impress while Moore did.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...s-his-case-to-become-lions-backup-quarterback

I hope Moore gets to try playing with the twos next week. If he does well there as well, I hope he gets elevated to second string depending on how Orlovsky does.

Did anyone see the houston-arizona game? I only saw the result, and 32-0 seems to indicate that Houston has a problem with the offense.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

This happened to a guy I know in his first training session with an AFL team here, straight up broken nose from a "stray elbow" from the guy who was the established player in the position they both played (this was back in the day, it wouldn't pass scrutiny now). He admits in hindsight he was a bit naïve.

One of the worst stories admitted to a decade later by the perpetrator was breaking the leg of a rookie. Nice guy.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Bleacher Report is one of my favorite resources, but sometimes they get wound up over, well, almost nothing. A couple posts ago in this thread I mentioned nobody should make such a big deal about Demarcus Ware's performance in the SEA @ DEN game last week, because while Ware is an upgrade, in that preseason game he was not facing any SEA starting offensive linemen. But B/R could not resist the temptation to jump on the Ware bandwagon... LINK

I agree with that B/R that Johnny F was a winner last week. I may be eating crow sooner than expected.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

The Texans had almost zero offense, but one guy on defense showed serious potential: Jadeveon Clowny. Even in the NFL, for a few plays he looked absolutely explosive off the ball. Watch the highlights of him. The times he lined up at OLB next to JJ Watt, that side of the Cardinals offense couldn't stop them at all.

Having said that, what may also be the case is that Arizona may have an outstanding defense this year, which is why Houston had no offense.

Let's see how Johnny Football does against a first string defense. The good news is that I'm sure he'll get some snaps with the 1st string next game.

As to Kellen Moore, I too was impressed. He's one of the most undersized QBs in the NFL, but he showed real zip on the ball and excellent decision making. He definitely outplayed Orlovsky.

I don't recall hearing any direct story of a vet purposefully injuring a rookie to keep his job. Bill Romanowski claimed that Charlies Haley bullied him both physically and mentally during his rookie year, but that's because Haley was insane. Recall that he once tried to pick a fight in the locker room with Steve Young (and eventually got professional psychological help). Romanowski then of course passed this on to other players, spitting on JJ Stokes, punching someone else in training, etc. But I don't recall either trying to injure teammates.

Meanwhile, Jonathan Martin played well in his first game in SF. Richie Incognito is still waiting for a team to call him in for a tryout.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

How about a little poll here?
Warner HOF or not?
OFC I say yes. 100% first ballot. Imagine, next year he´s already eligible.

A must read:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/kurt-warner-hall-fame-case

To not influence your opinions I just give a hint that this great article missed two important points (otherwise he covered all sides). I´ll come back to them later (if I don´t get banned again when an pretender makes me going on assault again ).

 

[Oldman]

How about a little poll here?
Warner HOF or not?
OFC I say yes. 100% first ballot. Imagine, next year he´s already eligible.

A must read:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/kurt-warner-hall-fame-case

To not influence your opinions I just give a hint that this great article missed two important points (otherwise he covered all sides). I´ll come back to them later (if I don´t get banned again when an pretender makes me going on assault again ).

I'd agree and I saw him play a lot. Love that aggressive passing style but my vote Don't Count.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I'd agree and I saw him play a lot. Love that aggressive passing style but my vote Don't Count.

My 2nd most favourite year... that 99 season (No 1 is still Da Bears 85). Pure magic.

Doesn´t matter if your vote don´t count. Nothing matters what all of us write here.

But I think it´s a great topic to discuss; the pro and cons for Warner being HOF/or not...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I don't need to read that article. Warner is absolutely, positively a 1st ballot hall inductee.

He's like a better version of Jim Plunkett, who arguably belongs in the HOF with two SB rings. Both nice, smart guys who had a few down years between winning some very big games in big seasons. But Warner played a bigger game, a total air game when passing wasn't quite as vogue as it is today. He also did something that wasn't vogue in that when he came into the league passing was dominated by West Coast short passes in complicated routes, Warner and the Rams instead threw deep, and threw deep often. And he did so with laser accuracy, which is the hardest thing for a QB to consistently do - toss a 40+ yard pass with perfect timing, right on the money. He did it over and over. How many QB's today throw like that? Aaron Rodgers, maybe? Joe Flacco...sometimes.

He may not make the first ballot, and if so, I'll be okay with it. But he will undeniably get there.

I'll also make the argument that he could very easily be wearing three SB rings had it not been for some very likely cheating on the part of the Patriots, and some very poor refereeing against the Steelers.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I don't need to read that article.

You may do. It´s not the normal talk much say nothing article like ESPN.
Great facts of who what when compared to what where and else... Even I got some nuggets out of it...

Otherwise good post as usual.

 

[leftover pie]

One of the worst stories admitted to a decade later by the perpetrator was breaking the leg of a rookie.

ouch!

and they call it a team sport.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

@Foxxy's Poll about QB Kurt Warner as HOFer: definitely a first ballot HOFer.

 

[leftover pie]

A must read:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/kurt-warner-hall-fame-case

great read, cheers for posting.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

ouch!

and they call it a team sport.

Decades ago there was a different attitude towards injuring someone. Take this example, which is not the example I mentioned earlier:

"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was important -- like a league game."
.......... **** Butkus, Former Chicago Bears Linebacker (Funny Quotes Link)

Plenty of other NFL player one-liners at that link.

Edit: RLY? ****? Well, he was one hard a$$.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

We've talked about it before, guys like Butkis, Mike Curtis, Conrad Dobler, Jack Youngblood, Deacon Jones. Many Raiders and Steelers players. It was a different sport back in the 60s and 70's. Head slaps, chop blocks, horse collars, helmet to helmet, all of that legal, and more. But every year guys get bigger, stronger and faster, so safety measures are necessary, as is more oversight by the teams, coaches, and league. Some don't like it, but have to get with the times.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Found these quotes from Conrad Dobler, who has repeatedly been called the dirtiest NFL player in history, which he not only never denied, but embraced. It's kind of a persona, but it's also rooted in reality, which makes it less amusing.

"When (defensive linemen near me raised their arms to block my QB's pass), I'd smack 'em in the solar plexus, and that got their hands down real quick. It's as if nobody wants to see anybody else get injured."

Nobody wants to see anybody else get injured? What?

Even to this day he freely admits both leg whipping, head slapping, plus kicking and punching other players during pile-ups, to get them out of the game, and also admits to spitting on other players in order to antagonize them.

He claims to remember only biting one guy, Doug Sutherland of the Vikings. Yes "only" one. Like that makes it okay. Sutherland needed a tetanus shot and stitches after the game.

Dobler once knocked nice guy Merlin Olsen out of a game with a nasty hit. Said Olsen, "One of these days, someone's going to break Dobler's neck, and I'm not going to send any flowers." Even in retirement Dobler quipped that of course Olsen would end up doing FTD commercials, as if it fit some sort of sissy personality, while Dobler was a real man.

Phil Villapiano, said there are crazy players in the NFL, but Dobler was another level of crazy on the field, a wild animal. "Conrad was a tough, rotten, nasty guy." Villapiano is a former teammate who considered Dobler a life long friend!

Here's another one indicating what kind of father he was:

"When guys come over to date my daughter, I tell them, 'I want you to go out and have a very good time with my daughter. If you abuse her in any way, I'm going to kill your mother and father, cut your back open, pull out your spine, and leave you in a wheelchair so you can think about what you did for the rest of your life."

Considering the way the game is now played, I don't think we'll ever see anyone along the same likes as him. There may be worse players off the field, from OJ to Lawrence Phillips to Rae Carruth, and owners or execs who damage the game, such as former Bucs owner Hugh Culverhouse who was a greedy miser who treated his players like crap. And we'll see stronger players in the future who make harder clean hits (and a few dirty ones). But I don't think we'll ever see anyone as dirty as Dobler ever again.

 

[Oldman]

we've talked about it before, guys like butkis, mike curtis, conrad dobler, jack youngblood, deacon jones. Many raiders and steelers players. It was a different sport back in the 60s and 70's. Head slaps, chop blocks, horse collars, helmet to helmet, all of that legal, and more. But every year guys get bigger, stronger and faster, so safety measures are necessary, as is more oversight by the teams, coaches, and league. Some don't like it, but have to get with the times.

jack tatum

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Here's an example of bad form: Whiffing on a block to get your own QB hurt

 

[Oldman]

Here's an example of bad form: Whiffing on a block to get your own QB hurt

Back in the day I heard from some Seahawks related to the gym where I rehabbed that QB Jim Zorn's religious critique of other players became unbearable. Particularly because he shared little camaraderie or credit to his O line (not to mention financial support). Coach Jack Patera was rumored to have offered little help on the matter and many team members decided both had to go.
Occasionally the O line acted on that agreement like your example. Probably not that isolated where prima donnas are concerned.
I think both Jim and Jack were gone within a couple of seasons....

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Back in the day ....

Now that's a story I had not heard. Interesting for sure.

Well, since we are talking about tough guys and stories, how about all the freakin' media attention being given to players fighting in camps and practice? NFL Network's Amber Theoharis, who I like to watch, asked "Are there just more cameras in camps?" Well, yeah. And way more talk going on about fighting. Mostly, they are making a much bigger deal out of it than needs to be. So here I am talking about it!

However, I did hear one really great take by Mike Golic on ESPN's Mike-N-Mike show in the morning. Apparently, Peyton Manning was being critical of all the fighting going on. Nobody knows if his criticism was the result of players fighting in other team's camps, or if there was some fight at a Broncos camp, but that does not matter. PM's point was this: "I treat practices like games. In games your team gets penalized for fighting. So don't fight in practice." Sounds logical, right? Spoken like a true Vulcan, Mr. Spock. So Golic jumps all over that one, and his point was something like this: "The QB should just shut up in these matters. Look, PM is sitting back there with his red jersey on, and everyone of defense is told not to hit PM. So PM is not in there taking hits like everyone else. For the guys doing the hitting, sometimes tempers flare and it escalates into something bigger. PM should just shut up and let the real men settle it."... I loved it.

 

[Oldman]

Now that's a story I had not heard. Interesting for sure.

Well, since we are talking about tough guys and stories, how about all the freakin' media attention being given to players fighting in camps and practice? NFL Network's Amber Theoharis, who I like to watch, asked "Are there just more cameras in camps?" Well, yeah. And way more talk going on about fighting. Mostly, they are making a much bigger deal out of it than needs to be. So here I am talking about it!

However, I did hear one really great take by Mike Golic on ESPN's Mike-N-Mike show in the morning. Apparently, Peyton Manning was being critical of all the fighting going on. Nobody knows if his criticism was the result of players fighting in other team's camps, or if there was some fight at a Broncos camp, but that does not matter. PM's point was this: "I treat practices like games. In games your team gets penalized for fighting. So don't fight in practice." Sounds logical, right? Spoken like a true Vulcan, Mr. Spock. So Golic jumps all over that one, and his point was something like this: "The QB should just shut up in these matters. Look, PM is sitting back there with his red jersey on, and everyone of defense is told not to hit PM. So PM is not in there taking hits like everyone else. For the guys doing the hitting, sometimes tempers flare and it escalates into something bigger. PM should just shut up and let the real men settle it."... I loved it.

Aside from the overly degrading "real men" crap there is a shred of truth to finding out the breaking point so coaches can draw that line for games. Otherwise some opponent's wily Def back gets away with the small push and the Ref flags the retaliatory head slap from some hot head. PM may want his side of the ball to behave a certain way but the defense is another team. Best leave that alone.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

You guys may recall that after the new CBA went into place Bill Bellicheck noted that players were getting injured more because of a lack of early contact in camp. What we could be seeing is tougher practices leading into the preseason as a result.

As to Jim Zorn, Seahawk fans will remember the somewhat rapid improvement the team underwent once Dave Kreig replaced him.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Aside from the overly degrading "real men" crap there is a shred of truth to finding out the breaking point...

FWIW, I like that kind of overly degrading crap . But you are right about breaking point. Not just that, here is a comment made by an NFL coach on the ESPN M&M program right on the heels of Golic's "real men" statement. I don't recall the name of the coach, but I think it was a Bronco. Too add a shred of good that can come out of temper flare ups, he said, "We try to calm the players down as quick as we can because it disrupts the flow of practice (wastes time). But there has been more than one dull practice I've been involved in where a fight energizes the practice so higher quality workouts end up as a result."

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

You guys may recall that after the new CBA went into place Bill Bellicheck noted that players were getting injured more because of a lack of early contact in camp. What we could be seeing is tougher practices leading into the preseason as a result.

As to Jim Zorn, Seahawk fans will remember the somewhat rapid improvement the team underwent once Dave Kreig replaced him.

Now that you mention it, I recall B-chick saying that. I agree with him. Big difference between fitness shape and being in football shape.

I don't recall the year Kreig replaced Zorn, but remember Dave who? And he turned out allright as long as defense didn't touch him. Recall the fumbles?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I do, but Kreig was a considerably better QB than Zorn in almost every respect. It's not even close. And judging by Oldman's post, his teammates felt the same.

Some Thursday night pre-season. Most interesting is maybe seeing if Blake Bortles gets more playing time for Jax. But if I were a Jax fan I'd be curious to see how the first team defense does against Jay Cutler and the Bears offense.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Bortles is sure to get some playing time unless he's hurt. I don't see him on the injury report. Nice first week outing for him, with a 99 QBR, but he did not face much of a rush that the Bears are likely to bring. So it will be interesting to see how he handles that. JAX RB Toby Gerhart is going to get his first game action, so that will be interesting too.

Other games Friday:
PHIL @ NE
TEN @ NO
SD @ SEA
DET @ OAK

Other than the obvious for me, the PHIL-NE and DET-OAK games hold some interest. I mean, Kellen Moore last week was great (11/13 ATT, 121 yards, 1 TD, no INTs, 131 rating). And he looked way slimmed down from his 2013 showing at the combine.

Then it will be interesting to see how far RGIII has progressed, and if the D has improved any. And then PHIL is just plain interesting team.