National Football League

[SirLes]

re fighting in camp. It depends on the personality of the players imo. Not something that i was ever into particularly but the best team I ever played in had several players that would get pretty feisty in training. There was definitely an attitude of "we're going to test you" and the principle was that matches would be easy in comparison.
It would rarely get out of hand but then players had sticks and not a lot of protection so the implications were pretty serious.


As for getting in "football shape" compared to normal fitness: I've never played football but 10 mins into the first rugby practice with full contact and everyone was knackered. The general battering just takes it out of you

 

[Merckx index]

Some of the secrets to Chip Kelly's success:

Kelly’s influence extends far beyond read-options and the no-huddle, and into the subtler and more fundamental aspects of the game. In just one year, Kelly’s question-everything approach has caused many smart NFL coaches and executives to ask themselves why they’ve been doing things the same way for so long. And many are realizing that Kelly has better answers.

Kelly’s offense isn’t unique because of specific schemes; it’s unique because of how he organizes and implements them.

Instead of drawing up a new play to get that one-on-one matchup for that seven-yard pass, Kelly, like some football hacker, is attacking the very logic of defenses by deploying two-on-one, three-on-two, and four-on-three advantages, whether in run-blocking schemes or pass patterns.

What makes him so interesting is his ability to seamlessly mesh old-school tactics and NFL-style attention to detail with an approach that attacks the very structure of defenses. College football has produced a lot of innovation over the last 10 years or so, but many of the great college innovators lack the attention to detail to succeed in the NFL. At the same time, many NFL coaches are too ingrained in the old ways to adapt to an evolving game. Kelly has always been at home blending the old and the new. That’s where the NFL is going, but Kelly is already there.

While coaching at Oregon, Kelly began investing significantly in sports science, both by bringing in outside consultants and by developing in-house expertise and technology. He built principally on research first conducted for Australian-rules football.

• Many of those studies, which have since been expanded to cover a range of sports, used heart rate, GPS, accelerometers, and gyroscope monitors worn by players in practice to determine how to train for peak game-day performance3 and how to prevent injuries.4 These studies also tracked the movements that players made in games5 so teams could mold practices and training to what players did on an individualized and position-by-position basis.

Kelly’s team uses the latest wearable player-tracking technology, and his staff monitors the resulting data in real time to determine how players should train and when they become injury risks. “On an individualized basis we may back off,” Kelly said recently. “We may take [tight end] Brent Celek out of a team period on a Tuesday afternoon and just say, because of the scientific data we have on him, ‘We may need to give Brent a little bit of a rest.’ We monitor them very closely.”

“One of the benefits we have from practice and the no-huddle offense, where every period is no-huddle, is our second and third [teams] — and I’ve gone back and charted this — get almost twice as many reps as other teams I’ve been at when you’re sitting in the second or third spot,” explained Eagles defensive coordinator Billy Davis, a longtime NFL veteran. That has a recruiting benefit when it comes to attracting backup players, which in turn helps the Eagles discover hidden gems.

On the day before games, Kelly’s Eagles conduct a full-speed, up-tempo practice, rather than the leisurely walk-throughs run by essentially every other team in the league. “Through our research, through science, [we learned] that you need to get the body moving if you’re going to be playing,” Kelly explained.

A comment on Kurt Warner. Whether or not you think he belongs in the HOF depends on your view of peak years vs. overall body of work. In MLB, guys like Warner have a lot of trouble making the HOF, because generally the voters demand both, a high performance in a 5-7 period in the peak years, plus a lower but well above average and sustained performance in years beyond the peak.

Nomar Garciaparra makes an interesting cross-sport comp. Like Warner, he had six great years. During those six years (which occurred in a seven year stretch in the beginning of his career; the one off year he mostly missed with injuries), he was second only to ARod among SS. Compared to Jeter, e.g., he hit for a better average, more power, and was better defensively. He accumulated 40 WAR in those six of seven years (BBRef), which means he was at MVP-contending level every year. In contrast, Jeter who was healthy all seven years, accumulated about 37 WAR. So in their primes, Nomar was about 25% more valuable when healthy than Jeter.

But then Nomar suffered more injuries, his performance declined, and his record was spotty for the rest of his career. He will be eligible for the HOF soon, but I’d say he probably won’t get in. It doesn't help that he never played in a WS, though he does have one ring from playing for the Red Sox for part of the season when they finally won it all in 2004. It also doesn’t help that now there is a large backlog of players tainted by steroids, players who can’t get in but keep getting a significant portion of the limited vote pool. But the real problem is that his career stats are not very impressive, simply because beyond his peak he didn’t do much.

In contrast, Jeter stayed healthy and performed at a good level up until quite recently. Jeter is a certain first-ballot HOFer, and there is even talk that he will be the first to get in unanimously, though I doubt it. Being on the Yankees, all those WS rings, have certainly helped, but the bottom line is he has both the peak years in his 20s, and a sustained performance in his 30s. That Garciaparra was better in his prime counts for very little.

It is possible to make the baseball HOF on mostly peak years. Sandy Koufax is probably the best example of that. Like Garciaparra, he had six peak years; before that, he was more or less average, and he retired at the end of those peak six. But he was not just great in his prime, he was arguably the best ever.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

In the Jags @ Bears so far, we can see why Seattle did not try to keep DEs Clemmons & Bryant. Cutler is getting plenty of protection as Bear's tackles are handling Clem & Big Red just fine.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

For me a better comparison to Kurt Warner would be Curt Schilling. Both were big game players who played their best on the biggest stages. They also had a few monster seasons, in between some not so great years, and injuries. If you look at each for career stats alone, both would be borderline, but if you're evaluating both on what you remember from them, you wouldn't hesitate inducting them.

Plus off the field both are personable, family men of faith. Oh, and they (almost) have the same first name too.

 

[Oldman]

In the Jags @ Bears so far, we can see why Seattle did not try to keep DEs Clemmons & Bryant. Cutler is getting plenty of protection as Bear's tackles are handling Clem & Big Red just fine.

...and Seattle seemed to do just fine now that the field of "keepers" is narrowing down.

 

[Merckx index]

deleted, duplicate post

 

[Merckx index]

For me a better comparison to Kurt Warner would be Curt Schilling. Both were big game players who played their best on the biggest stages. They also had a few monster seasons, in between some not so great years, and injuries. If you look at each for career stats alone, both would be borderline, but if you're evaluating both on what you remember from them, you wouldn't hesitate inducting them.

Schilling is a good comp in that he had great post-season success, was actually better there than Warner. But Schilling's RS accomplishments are much better than Warner's, I don't regard them as borderline at all. He had more than a few good seasons, he actually had ten of them. The problem is that for much of his career he played on relatively poor teams with weak run support.

His career FIP, considered one of the best measures of a pitcher's performance (like ERA with the aspects that the pitcher can't control removed), is a stellar 3.2. He has 80 career WAR, a level that is generally considered slam-dunk for HOF. Only seventeen pitchers have more, and all of them are either in the HOF or are pretty much a lock when they become eligible, except Clemens, because of PEDs, of course. And there are many HOFers with less WAR, e.g., Spahn, Roberts, Marichal, Koufax, Feller, and one of the newest members, Glavine. Schilling meets all the reasonable criteria for HOF.

You might argue that both Schilling and Warner are underappreciated, but the difference is that Schilling is not underappreciated by anyone who understands the game. Traditionalists might vote against him because he didn't win enough games, but these are the same idiots who voted for Cabrera over Trout. I think the tide of history is against them.

In contrast, even people who understand football can have an honest difference of opinion about Warner. There is actually a good case to be made against him, and I appreciate that the writer of the article Foxxy linked made that case, even if he doesn't buy it. As I said before, it comes down to how much you weight peak years. People can reasonably differ over how much length and consistency of career matter.

This argument can't be made against Schilling, because even though he did lose considerable time to injuries and slow development (not at all unusual for pitchers), his WAR compares very favorably to well-recognized HOFers who had much longer careers. However one feels about WAR, it is a counting stat. You don't accumulate a lot of it by having a few brilliant years (hence Koufax has relatively few for a HOFer). To get to 80+, you have to perform at a high level for quite a long time.

Plus off the field both are personable, family men of faith. Oh, and they (almost) have the same first name too.

I like Curt, but he shoots his mouth off at inopportune times, and is not shy about his right wing beliefs. Also managed to lose a pile of money. When he announced he was battling cancer, there were a lot of people who expressed sympathy for him by beginning with "I've never liked this guy, but..." Personality wise, I don't think he's much like Warner.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

...and Seattle seemed to do just fine now that the field of "keepers" is narrowing down.

Last season Seattle had 6 DEs on their Super Bowl roster (avril, Bennett, Clemons, big Red, Irvin, and Mayowa) and 2 on IR or the PUP list (Boatright, and Scruggs). So after letting Red and Clem go, they still have:
- Avril (starter)
- Bennett (starter)
- Mayowa (competing keeper)
- Schofield (who tore it up last night)
- Cassius Marsh (rookie competing keeper)
- Jeffcoat (rookie UFA, multi -position guy @OLB)
That puts Scruggs and Boatright in a fight for the 6th spot with Jeffcoat.
Thing is, there is no drop off in talent with that lineup, even without Clem & Red.
And I didn't even mention Irvin who is more of a hybrid DE/OLB who needs to have a Breakout year.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'd still take that comparison over Nomar, who never impressed me anywhere near the way Kurt did. The whole thing is sort of apples to oranges anyway.

Meanwhile, the Seahawks carved right through the Chargers, even with the referees blowing plenty of whistles at the 'hawks.

Not to be out-flagged, the Patriots and Eagles played the same. Jimmy Garoppolo looked okay behind Brady, but I wonder just how strong his arm is, and how accurate he can throw down field. I also question this new Patriots defense that was supposed to be a step up from last season.

Aaron Rogers looked very precise and focused against the Rams. Some beautiful, difficult throws. Too much focus on Michael Sam, when the Rams offense to me was hot/cold. Can Sam Bradford rise above that?

Curious how Tony Romo does tonight against the Ravens and their new defense. Listening to Jason Garret you'd think the Cowboys defense has something to prove and is going to surprise people.

Manziel was pretty modest yesterday in practice, saying if the season started tomorrow he shouldn't start, but the Browns staff say he is progressing very well.

Derek Carr was playing well for Oakland before getting hurt. He, Matt Schaub, and Matt McGloin who so many seem to give up on, all played okay, but the Raiders new OL sure did them no favors. After an excellent week 1 game, Kalil Mack got fairly pushed around for much of the day.

In Cincy, while Andy Dalton has the starting QB job sealed, Jason Campbell looks like he may soon be out of a job. Tyler Wilson, who was once very heralded in college may have found a home there, along with Matt Stott who looks decent. This leaves AJ McCarron looking in from the outside. Maybe. Odds still say the team keeps Dalton, Campbell and AJ. But...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Everyone ready for Johnny Football, round 2? I think if Manziel plays as well as Hoyer, and he tells the coaches he's ready to start week 1 against Pittsburgh, he'll start. If not, we'll have to wait until the Browns offense sputters before we do. But there is incredible hype, and likely with it pressure, to see the kid play.

Anyone happen to catch Eli Manning's performance the other day against the Colts? Eli was 1-7 for a total of 6 yards. Most of those passes were short even, and two of them were very close to being intercepted. Ryan Nassib of all people lead the Giants to a comeback win against the Colts scrubs. If Eli and the Giants can't improve, they're headed to the cellar, and a long time dealing with his big contract.

If the 49ers play anything like they are now come regular season, they will finish in last place in the NFC West. Granted, it's the pre-season, but the Seahawks 1st team looked good this week, and the Cardinals look solid with a very good defense in both their games. Even the Rams look better than the Niners, whose offense is about as bad as the Giants. Kaep was 5 for 9 for 39 yards. If he doesn't improve.. I have to wonder what all those fans who wanted Alex Smith gone are thinking?

Next week will be a big test for Michael Sam. USA Today says he was outplayed by Ethan Westbrooks, an undrafted free agent, who looked more consistent, especially against the run.

Finally, anyone who has seen any hilights at all must be very impressed with Jadeveon Clowny. He's looked every bit the #1 craft pick, and like a monster at that hybrid DE/LB position they have him playing. His speed off the snap, and the angles he is getting for power is just astounding. He looks like a cross between Bruce Smith and Lawrence Taylor. Granted, it's only 2 pre-season games, but he's been very impressive.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Saw a little of Eli, and was shocked on some plays. Maybe I shouldn't be. I also saw NYG CB Walter Thurmond get burned for a TD. Not good for him, who was a nickle in SEA and is now a nickle for the NYG.

SF? It is preseason, but that loss was embarassing, preseason or not. Colin's good completion % was marred by a measly 4.3 yards/completion and 66 QBR. But I don't think this team tanks. Wait for the regular season and we'll see. The new kid on the block I like for SF is MLB Borland, a rookie from Wisconsin. Good pick. He's one to watch.

If this is the real Clowney, with him and a healthy Watt spells double trouble, and will be interesting to see how good teams deal with that. Bad teams won't.

 

[The Hitch]

RG3 just can't help hisself. Ends up as a practice Piñata for the Cleveland secondary

Takes balls to do that in a preseason game though.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

RG3 just can't help hisself. Ends up as a practice Piñata for the Cleveland secondary

Takes balls to do that in a preseason game though.

Guarantee the Piñata will have a Not For Long NFL career if he keeps that up. I said that last year. I get the Skins had a 2nd down and 20 to go and he's trying to make something happen, and picks up 18 yards. But S L I D E. Either way he would have gotten them to 3rd down and manageable, so why risk it? Problem is his balls are between his ears.

Here is an interview of Manziel by Gruden that reveals the learning curve Johnny Football has: LINK.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

The case for Pryor as Wilson's backup in Seattle is picking up steam (B/R Link). Local sports radio 710 ESPN has also discussed that possibility. Question is, would that be the #1 or #2 backup. I still say #2 behind TJAX. But...

 

[Oldman]

RG3 just can't help hisself. Ends up as a practice Piñata for the Cleveland secondary

Takes balls to do that in a preseason game though.

Takes no brains or sense of positioning to do that anytime. Great athletes don't necessarily make good position players and that's a great example of the latter.
He's a giant nail in a field of hammers if he keeps that up.

 

[The Hitch]

Also, I never noticed this before but is every 5 yard penalty a first down? Yesterday I saw WAS had 3rd and long like 16, and then the defense got penalized for some bull**** holding or something and instead of 3rd and 11 it became 1st and 10. Personally I think a 5 yard penalty is reward enough for the offense, shouldn't be given 2 downs as well. Its not like the defense gains downs when they get a penalty for them, just yardage.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Not every 5 yard penalty is a first down. But one of the "points of emphasis" this preseason is the defender using their hands on a receiver beyond 5 yards downfield from the line of scrimmage. Within 5 yards from the line of scrimmage it is legal for the defender to use hands on the receiver, like in jamming the WR as he comes off the line. But they are making bad calls, and they are not reviewable.

Example - In the Friday SEA vs SD game, SEA CB Tharold Simon jammed the WR within the 5 yard limit, then made a 102-yard pick-6 that was called back for illegal use of hands downfield. The league reviewed the play later and said it was a legal jam and SEA should not have been penalized. So, if officials are going to make dumba$$ calls like that they should be reviewable... which reminds of a post here about how poorly the NFL runs the replay/challenge system.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

The main rule you're talking about is illegal contact on the defense, which means past the first five yards of the line of scrimmage, the defensive players cannot grab, shove or block any eligible receivers. Beyond the five yards, they must use their hands to block the passed ball away, and use their body position to go for the ball themselves.

The rule has been around a while and the referees likely won't throw this many flags in the regular season, but are trying to get the defenders used to playing less aggressively down the field. Meaning it will get called a little more, so get ready.

Jon Gruden commented on that RGIII hit, saying he must learn to stop playing like that. And that no QB in the league gets hit the way he does. He was not consistent in his throws, though I'd love to see him throw the ball down the field more as that bomb to Andre Roberts was right on the money and looked effortless.

As to Cleveland's QB situation, I don't know what I'd do. Both Hoyer and Manziel were not very good. No throws down the field worth anything, and both missed passes they should have completed. But Manzeil giving the Washington bench the finger when running off the field was juvenile. He has to learn to not do crap like that, now.

As to Terrell Pryor, the one line that article noted was that he's sort of like a younger version of Tjax. Which makes you wonder how many QB's they will keep on the roster.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

...Jon Gruden commented on that RGIII hit, saying he must learn to stop playing like that. And that no QB in the league gets hit the way he does. He was not consistent in his throws, though I'd love to see him throw the ball down the field more as that bomb to Andre Roberts was right on the money and looked effortless.

As to Cleveland's QB situation, I don't know what I'd do. Both Hoyer and Manziel were not very good. No throws down the field worth anything, and both missed passes they should have completed. But Manzeil giving the Washington bench the finger when running off the field was juvenile. He has to learn to not do crap like that, now..

RG will make some really good throws, but so does Kirk Cousins. Like Gruden said, he needs to stop taking risky hits. Otherwise, if he gets dinged again, Cousins might make enough of his opportunity to make fans forget RG.

In that link I posted about the Gruden-Manziel interview, Gruden asked who should start at the start of the regular season. Manziel said the better player should start, while sort of subtly dismissing the value that the experience of Hoyer brings, as if he was implying he has more upside than Hoyer. I thought it was a different answer than should have been given. But without getting into what I thought he should have said, I do think I would start Hoyer to begin the season. I think that Manziel has so much to learn yet that defenses will find ways to chew him up, and that could *** his growth and destroy his confidence. And he obviously has more to learn than just football, as the finger incident reveals.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Pettine and the Browns have made their decision, and it's Johnny Clipboard time. Brian Hoyer will get the start week 1. I personally think it's a good decision. Hoyer couldn't have played worse in the pre-season and I think he's likely to make better decisions and play better, more quickly. Johnny still needs more practice. I hope he does get a chance down the line, but I'll say as I did before, his wild west type of improvising play that worked so well in college won't fly in the NFL 95% of the time.

What will be interesting is if Manziel has some great drives in the last two pre-season games, and Hoyer does not.

Meanwhile, I agree Cousins looks like a potential starting QB. He had one bad throw against a solid Browns defense, and has a good head, and strong arm. Looking at teams like Houston (or Cleveland) it makes you wonder when his chance will come. And if as you say RGIII keeps running the way he does...

In a bit of amusement, Dolphin WR Mike Wallace says the 'Fins receivers don't get calls with refs calling more more defensive contact. Really man? Or could it be that you aren't connecting with Tannehill and the Dolphin offense?

 

[The Hitch]

Cleveland feels like they just wasted a golden opportunity by taking Manziel. They won the Bills trade easily getting 2 first round picks but it feels to me like they basically wasted the trade by taking Manziel with a 1st round pick later.

Imo they probably could have taken Gilbert in the 20's (moving up like they did with Manziel) as well as Watkins or Mack. And if Gilbert wasn't there there were other valuable cornerbacks.

That way they would have 2 good receiving options (once Gordon comes back), or a potentially great linebacker as well as someone for the corner position they wanted.

Or take Bridgewater and have a quarterback of the future. But Manziel who they passed on twice, who the team apparently didn't even want and was clear he'd have difficulty making it in the pros. When they have a legitimate team with a number of pro bowlers that with 1 or 2 pieces can be fighting for the playoffs

 

[leftover pie]

Cleveland feels like they just wasted a golden opportunity by taking Manziel.

there just seems to be (even from this far away) a never ending ****-storm of news/events/happenings surrounding this guy that have nothing to do with his play.

despite what he might say about being focussed on the game and the team 110% all these things (dodgy bathroom pictures, flipping the bird at the opposition, etc etc) must be a distraction for him and his teammates.

each time something like this happens fans might be happy to look past it but it will get stored away, it will mean that when he does get given the chance to be starter, if things go south for him they'll turn on him a lot quicker than if he'd been shown to be "doing all the right things" ever since being drafted.

I bet some of the Cleveland press have already been drafting the "Dear Browns: We Need To Talk About Johnny" articles just in case.


but hey if they put him in and he wins, no one will care

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Cleveland feels like they just wasted a golden opportunity by taking Manziel. They won the Bills trade easily getting 2 first round picks but it feels to me like they basically wasted the trade by taking Manziel with a 1st round pick later.

Imo they probably could have taken Gilbert in the 20's (moving up like they did with Manziel) as well as Watkins or Mack. And if Gilbert wasn't there there were other valuable cornerbacks.

That way they would have 2 good receiving options (once Gordon comes back), or a potentially great linebacker as well as someone for the corner position they wanted.

Or take Bridgewater and have a quarterback of the future. But Manziel who they passed on twice, who the team apparently didn't even want and was clear he'd have difficulty making it in the pros. When they have a legitimate team with a number of pro bowlers that with 1 or 2 pieces can be fighting for the playoffs

Did the Browns not want Johnny Football? I think you are part right in that. But SOMEONE in the Browns organization wanted him or they would not have picked him in the first round at least. And since they did pass on him twice before taking him, maybe someone ELSE did not want him. What I am suggesting is there may be discord or disagreement between the head coach and the GM... one of them wanting Manziel (probably the GM) and one who did not want him (probably the HC, since the HC tabbed Hoyer as starter). Did Rex Ryan move to Cleveland? Hehe.

Anyway, I agree that the Browns made the correct choice by selecting Hoyer as the opening day starter. Not only is it the best thing for the team now, as Hoyer gives them a better chance to win, but that way the competitive juices also keep flowing in Hoyer (who will not want to lose the job) and Manziel (who now understands he's got to work harder or more efficiently, and that nothing will be just given to him). Manziel could use a little dose of humility too.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Pettine and the Browns have made their decision, and it's Johnny Clipboard time. Brian Hoyer will get the start week 1. I personally think it's a good decision. Hoyer couldn't have played worse in the pre-season and I think he's likely to make better decisions and play better, more quickly. Johnny still needs more practice. I hope he does get a chance down the line, but I'll say as I did before, his wild west type of improvising play that worked so well in college won't fly in the NFL 95% of the time.

What will be interesting is if Manziel has some great drives in the last two pre-season games, and Hoyer does not.

Meanwhile, I agree Cousins looks like a potential starting QB. He had one bad throw against a solid Browns defense, and has a good head, and strong arm. Looking at teams like Houston (or Cleveland) it makes you wonder when his chance will come. And if as you say RGIII keeps running the way he does...

In a bit of amusement, Dolphin WR Mike Wallace says the 'Fins receivers don't get calls with refs calling more more defensive contact. Really man? Or could it be that you aren't connecting with Tannehill and the Dolphin offense?

LMAO. Johnny Clipboard! That's good. Next stop: Johnny Bust? You know my take.

Manziel should listen to Russ Wilson interviews. Even if only 1% rubbed off it would be improvement in JF. I tell you, Wilson is wise beyond his years if you listen to him. He exudes everything positive you want to see in a QB. And what he shows publicly is only a fraction of what goes on unseen, like setting goals for himself and the WRs to accomplish certain things that are hard to defend, like timing patterns. That kid could easily be a position coach right now.

Funny about Wallace's comment. Likely an excuse for lack of production, but I should not say that cuz I don't know squat about his production this preseason. Still, it's funny.

You'd think by now RG3 would have learned to protect himself by sliding, getting out of bounds, not taking the hit. Maybe he's just a little bit unteachable? Just a thought.

 

[The Hitch]

Did the Browns not want Johnny Football? I think you are part right in that.

There was the story that manziel phoned the quarterback coach late into the evening on first round day, then the quarterback coach somehow convinced the rest of the coaches to pull the trigger even though none of them actually wanted him.