National Football League

[Alpe d'Huez]

Plenty of more failed QBs than PM. He does have a SB ring (thanks, Bob Sanders!) Ha! But he's a vastly superior QB to Eli, who actually is and always has been way overrated and overpraised. I think Foxxy is mostly upset in that he was critical of PM in the past, but last year in the SB he hitched his horse to the Manning post, only to watch the biggest blowout in SB history (if not in score, certainly in play), with PM piling up a bunch of stats in a game completely lost.

If you want to know about how wrong your life could go post-NFL, take a look at Scott Mitchell, former QB of the Lions, Dolphins, etc.

Mitchell now weighs, are you ready? 366lbs! He describes himself as an eating machine. I have to at least applaud the guy for having the humility to go on the TV show at least. He has to know people are going to laugh at him and point fingers at him, etc.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

And Eli. Don't forget Eli.

Good thing Cooper never made it in the NFL!

Damm the spine stenosis! We could have had more fun watching foxy go after cooper!

Eli man It still is a head scratch-er with regards to his 2 super bowls. Right place right time I guess.

At OleMiss he put up good numbers but in my mind he never was spectacular / great QB material.

None of the boys are as good as their father in my opinion.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Oh come on. Manning is actually one of the best ever at his sport and most people would have him in the top 20 ever NFL players if not top 10 and has been recognized as the best in his sport on several occasions.

Klose was a slightly above average player at his sport who never came close to being ranked at the top who played on absolutely stacked teams that gave him the ball and that always got through to the end stages.

If Manning had 1/10th of the quality Klose has had in world cup squads, he would have won 10 superbowls by now.

Hitch, Hitch, Hitch...
it´s not the first time you missed my point.
To clarify once and for all:
1.) I didn´t use Klose as example but the german press. The point was how disgraceful it must be when a player is called regular season GOAT. They used Klose as example because germans know him.
The swedish press may would have used Jan Ove Waldner as example.
It was never ever about how great, good, or above average Klose is or is not.
2.) How do you know if PM is one of the best ever at his sport? What measurement you use? How you cross-over rate QBs vs Punters, or DEs vs WRs? Please enlighten me. I can not.
You certainly can rate QBs vs QBs. But that´s a whole different story. For you (& many others) he is the GOAT (at QB). For me (& many others) he is the RS-GOAT, but a big time choker when the going gets though. I have eye witness (myself, saw every single playoff meltdown of him live and coloured): When he gets nervous (mainly vs though playoff defenses) too many of his passes are wide off the target (mostly underthrown) and wobbling/sailing.
3.) "If Manning had 1/10th of the quality Klose has had in world cup squads, he would have won 10 superbowls by now."
That´s the biggest nonsense of your post. You can´t prove that. So the argument is useless. Go with what you have, and don´t try to cross-over evaluate the talent level and interactions between soccer players in soccer teams playing soccer games vs football players in football games. It is impossible to get any meaningful result out of that.
What we have is PM having won one SB (not 10, even though his offenses fielded great talent year in year out) with awesome help from his defense. It came like this: 3 Ints vs KC while the Colts defense gave up only 8 points. 2 Ints and only FGs vs BAL, while the Colts defense held the Ravens to 6 points. A ugly 1st half vs NE going down 6-21 on HFA at HT. What followed was one perfect half of PM and a sensational comeback in the 2nd half. A dreadful Super Bowl vs CHI. Starting with a TD throw to a w i d e open Wayne (hardly to credit PM for the missed assignement by the D) for 53 yards, he finished the game with a awful stat line: 24/37-194 (= 5.2 Y/A, 8.1 Y/C).
So while you (& many others) go with your gut feeling that PM is one of the best players all time, I go with the hard facts: a RS great at the QB position who is melting under (playoff-)pressure, which is backed by poor numbers, devastating playoff loses, weak off target throws, and just a single SB win when having his teams at a tremendous advantage many times: HFA and a game less (speak bye week) due to his RS heroics.
The guy plays at high variance. I prefer QBs that are solid trou-out a season (OFC, those QBs also have a couple of bad games vs great defenses, but they don´t come in dozens with them)...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

None of the boys are as good as their father in my opinion.

That's the problem with Archie. He had a very strong arm, but was stuck on crappy teams his whole career. So, who knows?

2.) How do you know if PM is one of the best ever at his sport? What measurement you use? How you cross-over rate QBs vs Punters, or DEs vs WRs?

He can't, you can't, no one can. You can't know for sure. But going by stats, his numbers at QB, yes in the RS, are super impressive.

You are right though in that his record in big games or against tough defenses is a serious let down. It's a story within itself.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

WARNING!

Time is running out on Elimination Football and Survival Football picks!

Once again, simple rules. For Elimination Football, if you haven't selected two teams you think will NOT make the Super Bowl, you must do so before tonight's game. Here is where things stand from what I can find digging through previous posts. I didn't look at every post, so please help out here.

Elimination Football:

Alpe - NY Giants, Cleveland
Foxxy - Denver
Amsterhammer - Washington, Dallas
On3m@nmy -
Glenn -
Hitch -
Tricycle -
Merckx -
Oldman -
Leftover Pie - NY Giants, Washington
Chewy -
Sciocco -
Pricey Sky -
Tonebear - NY Giants

For Survival Football, you must pick a team you think will lose this weekend. You cannot select them again for the rest of the season. Here are last week's picks. Please help fill in the blank if you picked and I missed it.

Alpe - Indianapolis
Foxxy - Green Bay
Glenn -
Amsterhammer -
On3m@nmy -
Hitch -
Tricycle -
Merckx - Miami (one strike)
Oldman -
Leftover Pie - San Diego
Chewy -
Sciocco -
Pricey sky -
Torebear -

If you failed to pick last week, I guess we can give you a "bye" and make you pick two teams this week.

Please post your picks before kickoff of tonight's Pittsburgh-Baltimore game.

Other predictions of course are also welcome.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

He can't, you can't, no one can. You can't know for sure. But going by stats, his numbers at QB, yes in the RS, are super impressive.

Thanks. I didn´t say anything different.

You are right though in that his record in big games or against tough defenses is a serious let down. It's a story within itself.

Thanks once more... Well, I think the story starts* with two issues;
1.) Arm strength (we discussed a lot already) ...
2.) Psychological reasons. I am guessing in that case, but speak from own expierience: His brain might remember everytime coming in a situation he had meltdown before (as early as in college) when the going gets tough. Then he gets nervous > his technique gets off because of that > his balls wobble/sail off > games end ugly.

I missed some easy high pressure billard/snooker shots in my youth I never forgot because they were devastating. Everytime nowadays I play a little pool and come into the same situation I get nervous. I play pool now, since I don´t have the time (and more important back issues) to train snooker a lot (way more difficult). After I hit the first eight balls (or less if I overtake a table after my opponent missed) I get nervous. Taking deep breaths, aiming again, make sure my arm is straight & feet are set perfectly... and still miss too often.
Same happened in Baseball. Two strikes vs me, the 3rd followed instantly. Everything went south. Pitching? Throwing three balls, all the opposing batter had to do was waiting. The fourth ball would follow soon. They knew it.
I had good games with like 12 SO in 6 IP, or real bad ones going with 6, 7, even more (!!) walks before coach (you call it "Manager" in MLB. Never knew why) benched me. High variance. I am a choker.

* Now stat heads dismiss the choking aspect almost completely. They blame it on (small) sample size, randomness, and what else. OFC those things are a major part of it. OTOH, they never played, so they don´t know what they are talking about. I spot nervousness. And PM has it when he is in certain situations. He is a choker. But he is soo good in making right descisions, having a quick release, and complete understanding of what he sees pre snap, that he made it to the top (covering his weaknesses being a weak arm and melting in certain situations). Other chokers with a little less talent don´t make it that far.
Now I am no psychologist. So I could be real wrong here. I just try to find a explanation of his high variance games. But for being called the GOAT at QB, he shall have either won more SBs, or at least lose the important games in his usual RS style. Not like a 2nd impression of Charlie Frye in those games.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Elimination Football:

Foxxy - Denver, Oakland (I guess it got lost in the masses of posts, since I picked it before gameday(s) of week one)


Survival Football,

Foxxy - In week one it was Indy, in week two it will be KC. No problem that you got it wrong. I understand it´s hard to sift trou all posts.

Thanks for running the games.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Washington , Dallas elimination.

for last week I picked Miami to lose so that is a strike against me.

This week I pick the Cowboys to lose.

 

[ToreBear]

WARNING!

Time is running out on Elimination Football and Survival Football picks!

Once again, simple rules. For Elimination Football, if you haven't selected two teams you think will NOT make the Super Bowl, you must do so before tonight's game. Here is where things stand from what I can find digging through previous posts. I didn't look at every post, so please help out here.

Elimination Football:

Alpe - NY Giants, Cleveland
Foxxy - Denver
Amsterhammer - Washington, Dallas
On3m@nmy -
Glenn -
Hitch -
Tricycle -
Merckx -
Oldman -
Leftover Pie - NY Giants, Washington
Chewy -
Sciocco -
Pricey Sky -
Tonebear - NY Giants

For Survival Football, you must pick a team you think will lose this weekend. You cannot select them again for the rest of the season. Here are last week's picks. Please help fill in the blank if you picked and I missed it.

Alpe - Indianapolis
Foxxy - Green Bay
Glenn -
Amsterhammer -
On3m@nmy -
Hitch -
Tricycle -
Merckx - Miami (one strike)
Oldman -
Leftover Pie - San Diego
Chewy -
Sciocco -
Pricey sky -
Torebear -

If you failed to pick last week, I guess we can give you a "bye" and make you pick two teams this week.

Please post your picks before kickoff of tonight's Pittsburgh-Baltimore game.

Other predictions of course are also welcome.

I thought we agreed not to start elimination football until this week?

I only picked for survival football(hence only the Giants).

Also for the survival football, can't we just make sure to pick sometime before the games start? The injury reports are going to be more important the further into the season we get, and AFAIK they are released two days before the game. Friday for Sunday games and Saturday for Monday games.

http://www.nfl.com/injuries?week=2

Could we perhaps also do the same for elimination football?

Anyway, In week 2 I predict Chicago to loose.

As for elimination football. If it is as I thought that it doesn't start until this week I select Oakland and Jacksonville not to be in the superbowl.

 

[Merckx index]

Hey, Foxxy, this guy says PM is the most valuable player in a money sense:

Most businesses focus on how an employee actually generates revenue to determine his or her compensation. Rather than relying solely on winning, I created a new metric that would incorporate the ways that sports organizations earn money into valuing a player’s worth. I call this metric “Revenue Above Replacement”(RAR). It examines how individual athletes help generate revenue in three revenue streams – ticket sales, television ratings, and jersey sales. It also looks at how an athlete’s ability to help a team win impacts an organization’s revenue.

In the NFL, no player is usually more valuable than the quarterback. The league’s 10 highest-paid players by average salary all play the position. The top QBs generate significant value on and off the field with their performances, and at the top of the list is 2013 MVP Peyton Manning. He drove $61 million in revenue to the Denver Broncos and NFL last year. Manning was paid $15 million by the Broncos last season.

I’m not a big defender of PM, he has a lot of bad PS performances. But not all:

1) the first time the Colts made the playoffs with him, as a WC, they won two games with great Manning performances, before getting shut down by NE in the title game;
2) the following year, he played well in winning a divisional game, before getting embarrassed even worse by NE;
3) the year the Colts went to their second SB with Manning, he played well vs. the Ravens and Jets.
4) He also played pretty well vs. SD and NE last year.

So it’s not as though he’s never played well in the PS. And remember, we all agree that while teams get to the playoffs on talent, getting to and winning the SB involves a lot of luck (see NYG). So being a great RS QB is not small praise, it means helping your team when talent rather than luck prevails.

As for Manning's place in history, we all know Montana was the greatest QB ever, so the argument is over who is that distant no. 2. There can be legitimate disagreement over that.

Will lose this week: Jets
Won’t go to SB: Jax, NYG

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Hey, Foxxy, this guy says PM is the most valuable player

I would agree. Because people buy the story. We all know he get/got mega rich out of his famousness (correct word?). Payed autographs, monster commerical deals, unholy NFL contracts... but I (still) see the sporting aspect of his story: He got praised for the wins, excused by bad team play for the loses. That stinks to me. He isn´t the best player in the history of the NFL, not the GOAT at the QB position, may not even among the active QBs...

I’m not a big defender of PM, he has a lot of bad PS performances. But not all

Yes, yes. I agree. He had many monster playoff games with perfection. It just seems it makes click in on of those other games, and then it gets real ugly. High variance...
I´d prefer a stable QB like Aikman in the playoffs. No big numbers, but always a chance to win. Not on the wrong end of hefty blowouts (ok, maybe one)...

 

[Amsterhammer]

WARNING!

Time is running out on Elimination Football and Survival Football picks!

Once again, simple rules. For Elimination Football, if you haven't selected two teams you think will NOT make the Super Bowl, you must do so before tonight's game. Here is where things stand from what I can find digging through previous posts. I didn't look at every post, so please help out here.

Elimination Football:

Alpe - NY Giants, Cleveland
Foxxy - Denver
Amsterhammer - Washington, Dallas, N.Y. Giants, Sandy Eggo
On3m@nmy -
Glenn -
Hitch -
Tricycle -
Merckx -
Oldman -
Leftover Pie - NY Giants, Washington
Chewy -
Sciocco -
Pricey Sky -
Tonebear - NY Giants

For Survival Football, you must pick a team you think will lose this weekend. You cannot select them again for the rest of the season. Here are last week's picks. Please help fill in the blank if you picked and I missed it.

Alpe - Indianapolis
Foxxy - Green Bay
Glenn -
Amsterhammer - (missed pick) Sandy Eggo
On3m@nmy -
Hitch -
Tricycle -
Merckx - Miami (one strike)
Oldman -
Leftover Pie - San Diego
Chewy -
Sciocco -
Pricey sky -
Torebear -

If you failed to pick last week, I guess we can give you a "bye" and make you pick two teams this week.

Please post your picks before kickoff of tonight's Pittsburgh-Baltimore game.

Other predictions of course are also welcome.

For tonight - I will again let my heart rule my head.

PIT @ BAL

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I thought we agreed not to start elimination football until this week?

Elimination Football happens after the 1st week's games. Which means, pick now!

For Survival this week, I pick the NY Jets to lose.

 

[Samson777]

Elimination Football happens after the 1st week's games. Which means, pick now!

For Survival this week, I pick the NY Jets to lose.

Didn't see this last week. So for Survival this week San Diego Chargers and NY Jets to loose.

For Elimination: Jacksonville Jaguars and St. Louis Rams.

And awesome concept!

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

After all elimination picks and survival picks done by me, it´s time for the easy part:
Picking straight up winners for each game. I go with the working formula: All home teams (yes inclusive San Diego and Cleveland)...

 

[The Hitch]

Elmination Football ill go Jags Browns

Reverse survival football ill go New York Jets

 

[Merckx index]

The Ray Rice saga just gets more and more interesting. According to the latest report, four different sources said Rice unequivocally told Goodell that he punched Palmer and knocked her out. So whether or not Goodell saw the video seems not to matter at all.

But another report , quoting several owners who talked to Goodell privately around that time, said Goodell gave Rice a light sentence because Palmer took part of the blame for starting the fight. Supposedly, Goodell felt that if he gave Rice a stiff sentence, he would be questioning the truth of Palmer’s story, or “questioning her character”. However, the same sources also said Goodell indicated at that meeting that he thought Palmer became unconscious from falling, which seems to contradict the other reports.

And meanwhile, sportswriters are finally noticing that Carolina's DE Greg Hardy has already been convicted of DV, but played last week and is expected to play this week.

 

[leftover pie]

Round 2 I am really looking forward to the undefeated New York Jets taking on a winless Green Bay Packers.




There's a phrase you won't say too often.

 

[Amsterhammer]

A warrant for the arrest of Adrian Peterson, one of the National Football League’s top stars, was issued on Friday after he was charged in a child abuse investigation in Texas, the latest criminal case to rock the country’s most popular sport.

The charges against Peterson, a running back for the Minnesota Vikings regarded as one of the best ever, came after police investigated claims that he had abused his son while disciplining him with a switch, or a tree branch.

He has been "deactivated" by the Vikings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/s...son-indicted-on-child-injury-charge.html?_r=0

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

He has been "deactivated" by the Vikings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/s...son-indicted-on-child-injury-charge.html?_r=0

No problem. There are plenty backs around that can run & cut fast forward. He´s interchangeable as (my estimation) 97% of RBs are.
Waiting for some flak now, because AP did so-and-so many 1.000+ yard seasons, got so-and-so many rushing records, carried his team to the playoffs. But I am ready.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

The NFL has an image problem, huh?!

AP definitely better than average RB, but I'm not taking the bait. Definitely below than average human being.

Anyone want to pick Minnesota (vs NE) for Survival Football this weekend?!

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

AP definitely better than average RB, but I'm not taking the bait.

Pity!

Anyone want to pick Minnesota (vs NE) for Survival Football this weekend?!

Not for survival (there are safer picks), but I have my MIN pick already made with my "trademark HFA system".

 

[Merckx index]

No problem. There are plenty backs around that can run & cut fast forward. He´s interchangeable as (my estimation) 97% of RBs are.
Waiting for some flak now, because AP did so-and-so many 1.000+ yard seasons, got so-and-so many rushing records, carried his team to the playoffs. But I am ready.

The problem with your logic, Foxxy, is that if you get banned, we can argue that there are plenty of posters who can criticize Horner, discuss soccer, predict the winners of football games, and diss the Mannings. You Horner-hating Manning-bashers are all interchangeable. We just draft another one, and the Clinic and the NFL thread will hum along the same as before.

The NFL has an image problem, huh?!

AP definitely better than average RB, but I'm not taking the bait. Definitely below than average human being.

When I first saw the story, I thought the NFL was over-reacting because of Rice. I guess it's my generation. I was spanked on occasion as a kid, and I don’t think it had a negative effect on me. I never thought of it as abuse, but I do know thinking on that has changed, and I certainly have never hit my kids. But I do understand that some parents snap when their kids drive them up the wall, and while striking them may be considered abuse, I wouldn't necessarily view it as bad as knocking out your significant other. Peterson may be a despicable person who regularly beats his kid, but he just could be someone who was trying to get his kid to behave and just went over the line. Bruising is certainly going over the line.

Anyone want to pick Minnesota (vs NE) for Survival Football this weekend?!

I had considered doing that even before this news broke, but after what the Vikings did to the Rams (I was going to say “beat up”, and realized this sports language is part of the problem), I thought I’d better wait to see how good they are before assuming they’d lose to NE.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The problem with your logic, Foxxy, is that if you get banned, we can argue that there are plenty of posters who can criticize Horner, discuss soccer, predict the winners of football games, and diss the Mannings. You Horner-hating Manning-bashers are all interchangeable. We just draft another one, and the Clinic and the NFL thread will hum along the same as before.

I am not so sure about this. I feel pretty much alone with my Horner hate.
And Manning bashers are also in the minority. So I better don´t get banned...

 

[Merckx index]

Meanwhile, the NFL’s other big problem is not going to go away:

NFL players are likely to suffer chronic brain injury at a "significantly higher" rate than the general population and also show neurocognitive impairment at a much younger age, according to documents filed on behalf of the league in federal court Friday.

Former players between 50 and 59 years old develop Alzheimer's disease and dementia at rates 14 to 23 times higher than the general population of the same age range, according to the documents. The rates for players between 60-64 are as much as 35 times the rate of the general population, the documents reported.

Nearly three in 10 former NFL players will develop at least moderate neurocognitive problems and qualify for payments under the proposed concussion settlement, according to documents filed by the league and the players.

The Segal Group estimates that 3,488 former players will make nearly 6,700 claims for payments related to brain injuries caused by playing football, according to the documents. Of those 3,488 claims, 94 percent would be for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease or moderate dementia, but the NFL's documents show that many, if not the majority of, players will be ineligible for compensation before reaching age 80.

The players' actuary estimated that former players were at twice the risk for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, Lou Gehrig's disease and dementia as the general population between the ages of 20-60 years old. After that, they estimated the ex-players' risk would be closer to normal.

The NFL's actuary reported significantly higher rates of Alzheimer's and dementia for all age groups. Players younger than 50 were at least eight times more likely to develop those diseases, for example.

It seems that both the players and the NFL commissioned a group of experts to conduct these studies, and surprisingly, the NFL's experts found the problem to be even worse than what the players's experts did (it would be like the tobacco companies publishing studies finding the cancer risk even greater than what the anti-tobacco groups found). The rates estimated from the various studies vary widely, and as a former ALS researcher, I’m not aware of any evidence that former football players are more likely to develop this disease than the general population. But the general conclusion that an NFL career results in a higher risk for later cognitive deficits, and probably some forms of dementia, is pretty credible.

The plan would pay up to $5 million for players with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, also known as Lou Gehrig's disease; $4 million for deaths involving CTE; $3.5 million for Alzheimer's disease; and $3 million for moderate dementia and other neurocognitive problems.

If I understand this correctly, it's now being proposed to increase greatly the amount of money given to players for these medical problems. The original settlement was always something of a joke. The amount the NFL agreed to pay the players might have seemed like a lot, but it was only about 1-2% of total revenue for the first three years or so, then considerably less than 1% after that.