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movingtarget said:
on3m@n@rmy said:
Yeah, i got a little carried away starting at Jerry Jones.

You all probably have one, maybe more, favorite teams you follow. I mean, follow enough to know something about that team's player personnel and team needs. So, with the draft coming up, what do you think would be your team's draft Day-1 shocking move or selection?

I'll have a go. Seattle. Everyone says OL is their biggest need, and if possible should draft an OL at #26 in the first round. There are 3 or 4 OLmen Seattle might take (Bolles, Ramczyk, Robinson, Lamp). Seattle does have other needs (CB, LB). I'm going to predict Seattle goes for best player available that still meets one of the other needs by taking a CB as their 1st round pick, even if one of those OLmen are still available when their #1 selection comes up. They might even go LB, but the better value will be at CB. That is not a really big shocker because the first 3 of those OLmen may already have been selected and Lamp would be a bit of a reach.
i will be interested to see what the Browns and 49ers do with the the QBs in the draft. There have already been rumors doing the rounds that the Panthers want to trade for the 49ers second pick. Kansas were supposedly very interested in Watson at least their coach was. It looks like a good draft for running backs and defense, not so good for QBs. Mixon wasn't even invited to the Combine but some people think he will go in the second round. I think that is very optimistic and several teams won't be interested in him at all for obvious reasons. I think he will probably go in the fourth round as some teams do need a good RB and he is one of the best in the draft if they want to take a calculated risk on his character that is.

I think the obvious pick for Seattle is O Line. Rams will probably go RB or WR because of their poor offense. Falcons will go defense I assume after that SB result ! I wonder if the Cardinals or Steelers will look at the QBs with two aging QBs not far from retirement. Panthers will go defense I'm pretty sure. Cowboys and Texans will probably both go offense although the Cowboys secondary needs an upgrade. Green Bay will go RB or O Line. The Jets will be tempted to go for a QB not that it will matter much ! Washington should go defense I think. Romo, RGIII, Kaep and Cutler still waiting. Gabbert and Ponder now applying the second coat of paint to Ponder's house ! Chip playing Madden with Baalke and thinking of college jobs maybe ?
NFL Network's "Path to the Draft" program has been presenting their version of teams draft boards for certain positions. The one I saw tonight on the QBs, they had SF sticking with their existing QBs (now Hoyer and Barkley) for 2017 and not drafting a QB with their 1st round pick, instead waiting until 2018 to consider using their 2018 1st rounder to address the QB position. That makes good sense to me as this year's crop of QBs isn't good enough to spend a high 1st round pick on. I actually thought a while ago that SF should do that, and maybe even trade down if possible. But they also could try to pick a QB in later rounds this year (maybe Mahomes). Yeah, so I have been interested in that as well.

As for Seattle, I think they may draft a CB in round one instead of an OLman. And not because of Sherman trade media speculations, which is all that is. The value at CB is superior to the value of offensive lineman this year, and the depth of talent at CB is also far superior. After the top 2 or 3 linemen, the next guys in line have 2nd round grades or lower. But who knows, Seattle may reach a bit to take a lineman with a 2nd round grade in the lower 1st round, just to give OL coach Tom Cable more to work with than crappy talent.

As for Steelers & Cards for QBs, those teams would be ideal situations for any QB drafted this year. Because the QB drafted will not be expected to start and will have a couple years to learn.
 
on3m@n@rmy said:
movingtarget said:
on3m@n@rmy said:
Yeah, i got a little carried away starting at Jerry Jones.

You all probably have one, maybe more, favorite teams you follow. I mean, follow enough to know something about that team's player personnel and team needs. So, with the draft coming up, what do you think would be your team's draft Day-1 shocking move or selection?

I'll have a go. Seattle. Everyone says OL is their biggest need, and if possible should draft an OL at #26 in the first round. There are 3 or 4 OLmen Seattle might take (Bolles, Ramczyk, Robinson, Lamp). Seattle does have other needs (CB, LB). I'm going to predict Seattle goes for best player available that still meets one of the other needs by taking a CB as their 1st round pick, even if one of those OLmen are still available when their #1 selection comes up. They might even go LB, but the better value will be at CB. That is not a really big shocker because the first 3 of those OLmen may already have been selected and Lamp would be a bit of a reach.
i will be interested to see what the Browns and 49ers do with the the QBs in the draft. There have already been rumors doing the rounds that the Panthers want to trade for the 49ers second pick. Kansas were supposedly very interested in Watson at least their coach was. It looks like a good draft for running backs and defense, not so good for QBs. Mixon wasn't even invited to the Combine but some people think he will go in the second round. I think that is very optimistic and several teams won't be interested in him at all for obvious reasons. I think he will probably go in the fourth round as some teams do need a good RB and he is one of the best in the draft if they want to take a calculated risk on his character that is.

I think the obvious pick for Seattle is O Line. Rams will probably go RB or WR because of their poor offense. Falcons will go defense I assume after that SB result ! I wonder if the Cardinals or Steelers will look at the QBs with two aging QBs not far from retirement. Panthers will go defense I'm pretty sure. Cowboys and Texans will probably both go offense although the Cowboys secondary needs an upgrade. Green Bay will go RB or O Line. The Jets will be tempted to go for a QB not that it will matter much ! Washington should go defense I think. Romo, RGIII, Kaep and Cutler still waiting. Gabbert and Ponder now applying the second coat of paint to Ponder's house ! Chip playing Madden with Baalke and thinking of college jobs maybe ?
NFL Network's "Path to the Draft" program has been presenting their version of teams draft boards for certain positions. The one I saw tonight on the QBs, they had SF sticking with their existing QBs (now Hoyer and Barkley) for 2017 and not drafting a QB with their 1st round pick, instead waiting until 2018 to consider using their 2018 1st rounder to address the QB position. That makes good sense to me as this year's crop of QBs isn't good enough to spend a high 1st round pick on. I actually thought a while ago that SF should do that, and maybe even trade down if possible. But they also could try to pick a QB in later rounds this year (maybe Mahomes). Yeah, so I have been interested in that as well.

As for Seattle, I think they may draft a CB in round one instead of an OLman. And not because of Sherman trade media speculations, which is all that is. The value at CB is superior to the value of offensive lineman this year, and the depth of talent at CB is also far superior. After the top 2 or 3 linemen, the next guys in line have 2nd round grades or lower. But who knows, Seattle may reach a bit to take a lineman with a 2nd round grade in the lower 1st round, just to give OL coach Tom Cable more to work with than crappy talent.

As for Steelers & Cards for QBs, those teams would be ideal situations for any QB drafted this year. Because the QB drafted will not be expected to start and will have a couple years to learn.
I'm more and more convinced that the Browns will take Garrett. From what I have heard, Washington have made the same long term offer to Cousins that they made before and he isn't biting so the 49ers might still think they can get him next year. A lot of so called draft experts think Kizer is the best QB in the draft and Shanahan is supposed to be a fan but with so many bases to cover for the lowly teams I agree that they might be tempted to wait another year for a QB. Of course some will and others won't ! But many NFL pundits seem to think that there is not one solid first round QB in this year's draft which could be good news for Kaep, Cutler and RGIII now with Romo also gone. 49ers have still only signed two QBs so they may take a gamble on a QB in later rounds and see if he can be developed and if it doesn't work out they will probably pick up another journeyman QB as the third on the roster before the season starts. Even Ponder could possibly be re-signed as the number three. It won't cost them much. There are some good running backs in the draft this year and even though the 49ers signed Hightower and also have Hyde, I think there's a chance they could go for a RB in the early rounds. They should still be able to get a good one in the second round. It's also supposed to be the best draft for 10 years or so for CBs. So Seattle should be able to pick up a good one if that's who they take in the first few rounds.
 
movingtarget said:
on3m@n@rmy said:
movingtarget said:
on3m@n@rmy said:
Yeah, i got a little carried away starting at Jerry Jones.

You all probably have one, maybe more, favorite teams you follow. I mean, follow enough to know something about that team's player personnel and team needs. So, with the draft coming up, what do you think would be your team's draft Day-1 shocking move or selection?

I'll have a go. Seattle. Everyone says OL is their biggest need, and if possible should draft an OL at #26 in the first round. There are 3 or 4 OLmen Seattle might take (Bolles, Ramczyk, Robinson, Lamp). Seattle does have other needs (CB, LB). I'm going to predict Seattle goes for best player available that still meets one of the other needs by taking a CB as their 1st round pick, even if one of those OLmen are still available when their #1 selection comes up. They might even go LB, but the better value will be at CB. That is not a really big shocker because the first 3 of those OLmen may already have been selected and Lamp would be a bit of a reach.
i will be interested to see what the Browns and 49ers do with the the QBs in the draft. There have already been rumors doing the rounds that the Panthers want to trade for the 49ers second pick. Kansas were supposedly very interested in Watson at least their coach was. It looks like a good draft for running backs and defense, not so good for QBs. Mixon wasn't even invited to the Combine but some people think he will go in the second round. I think that is very optimistic and several teams won't be interested in him at all for obvious reasons. I think he will probably go in the fourth round as some teams do need a good RB and he is one of the best in the draft if they want to take a calculated risk on his character that is.

I think the obvious pick for Seattle is O Line. Rams will probably go RB or WR because of their poor offense. Falcons will go defense I assume after that SB result ! I wonder if the Cardinals or Steelers will look at the QBs with two aging QBs not far from retirement. Panthers will go defense I'm pretty sure. Cowboys and Texans will probably both go offense although the Cowboys secondary needs an upgrade. Green Bay will go RB or O Line. The Jets will be tempted to go for a QB not that it will matter much ! Washington should go defense I think. Romo, RGIII, Kaep and Cutler still waiting. Gabbert and Ponder now applying the second coat of paint to Ponder's house ! Chip playing Madden with Baalke and thinking of college jobs maybe ?
NFL Network's "Path to the Draft" program has been presenting their version of teams draft boards for certain positions. The one I saw tonight on the QBs, they had SF sticking with their existing QBs (now Hoyer and Barkley) for 2017 and not drafting a QB with their 1st round pick, instead waiting until 2018 to consider using their 2018 1st rounder to address the QB position. That makes good sense to me as this year's crop of QBs isn't good enough to spend a high 1st round pick on. I actually thought a while ago that SF should do that, and maybe even trade down if possible. But they also could try to pick a QB in later rounds this year (maybe Mahomes). Yeah, so I have been interested in that as well.

As for Seattle, I think they may draft a CB in round one instead of an OLman. And not because of Sherman trade media speculations, which is all that is. The value at CB is superior to the value of offensive lineman this year, and the depth of talent at CB is also far superior. After the top 2 or 3 linemen, the next guys in line have 2nd round grades or lower. But who knows, Seattle may reach a bit to take a lineman with a 2nd round grade in the lower 1st round, just to give OL coach Tom Cable more to work with than crappy talent.

As for Steelers & Cards for QBs, those teams would be ideal situations for any QB drafted this year. Because the QB drafted will not be expected to start and will have a couple years to learn.
I'm more and more convinced that the Browns will take Garrett. From what I have heard, Washington have made the same long term offer to Cousins that they made before and he isn't biting so the 49ers might still think they can get him next year. A lot of so called draft experts think Kizer is the best QB in the draft and Shanahan is supposed to be a fan but with so many bases to cover for the lowly teams I agree that they might be tempted to wait another year for a QB. Of course some will and others won't ! But many NFL pundits seem to think that there is not one solid first round QB in this year's draft which could be good news for Kaep, Cutler and RGIII now with Romo also gone. 49ers have still only signed two QBs so they may take a gamble on a QB in later rounds and see if he can be developed and if it doesn't work out they will probably pick up another journeyman QB as the third on the roster before the season starts. Even Ponder could possibly be re-signed as the number three. It won't cost them much. There are some good running backs in the draft this year and even though the 49ers signed Hightower and also have Hyde, I think there's a chance they could go for a RB in the early rounds. They should still be able to get a good one in the second round. It's also supposed to be the best draft for 10 years or so for CBs. So Seattle should be able to pick up a good one if that's who they take in the first few rounds.
I agree with you on Browns most likely to draft Myles Garrett @ #1 overall, and on that QB summary. I pity the teams that pick a QB in round 1, especially with a top-15 overall selection. With widespread opinion that none of these QBs are worthy of being taken in round 1, it is as you say, some teams will bite out of desperation.

With regards to Cousins, originally I felt Washington was nuts to not make a harder attempt to extend him. But now I wonder if the impasse is due to Cousins not wanting to be there more than one year (maybe I missed some tidbit on that). That is something I bet Cousins would not discuss with anyone outside the organization, and certainly not something that the organization would talk about (in case the organization is interested in entertaining trade offers).
 
As to the Garrett, he quipped to Jerry Jones to please trade for him so he could play in Dallas instead of Cleveland, but the Browns would be a very nice landing spot for him. He'll be part of a young, big DL with potential that is mostly good already at stopping the run, leaving him as the pass-rush guy. And he'll have Jamie Collins backing him up. If games truly are won and lost in the trenches, this could be the start of a serious defensive foundation.

It's really hard to tell what shape the Browns are in, but they are starting to look young, deep, with a lot of draft picks coming up, and still flush with cash. If this pans out, and I know that's a big if, they could be the next version of Pete Carroll's 2012-14 Seahawks, or what we have just seen the Raiders do. But that's saying a lot. They still don't have a franchise QB, or anything close to it. Still, there's a lot of potential there to give Browns fans hope for the future.

Or they could just botch it, once again, Cleveland style, and fizzle out into another decade of 3-13 seasons and draft pick busts.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000503270/article/pain-rankings-no-1-the-cleveland-browns
 
Re:

Alpe d'Huez said:
As to the Garrett, he quipped to Jerry Jones to please trade for him so he could play in Dallas instead of Cleveland, but the Browns would be a very nice landing spot for him. He'll be part of a young, big DL with potential that is mostly good already at stopping the run, leaving him as the pass-rush guy. And he'll have Jamie Collins backing him up. If games truly are won and lost in the trenches, this could be the start of a serious defensive foundation.

It's really hard to tell what shape the Browns are in, but they are starting to look young, deep, with a lot of draft picks coming up, and still flush with cash. If this pans out, and I know that's a big if, they could be the next version of Pete Carroll's 2012-14 Seahawks, or what we have just seen the Raiders do. But that's saying a lot. They still don't have a franchise QB, or anything close to it. Still, there's a lot of potential there to give Browns fans hope for the future.

Or they could just botch it, once again, Cleveland style, and fizzle out into another decade of 3-13 seasons and draft pick busts.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000503270/article/pain-rankings-no-1-the-cleveland-browns
Like pleading with Jerry to trade up for him was going to get THAT done. Oh I suppose such a trade up could possibly (like 0.01 % chance) happen if one of the two teams involved had completely lost all their marbles.

But yeah, on paper the Browns are getting better and going to get better yet with all those stockpiled picks IF they chose wisely. Eventually the Browns will get another chance to address their QB position, but they are showing patience in building the roster now by taking Garrett instead of reaching.

Pain rankings: OFC the Browns are familiar with that distinction. But how about the Vikes, Lions, and Bengals, which all were on the cusp of emerging as contenders. With the Vikes it seems like mostly bad luck with injuries (Kalil, Bridgewater, AP who is now gone). Other than Megatron retiring, I'm not sure why the Lions fell off. With the Jets and Bills I feel like they have shot themselves in the foot with high round (QB) draft picks that did not work out. With KC, I expected more long-term out of them when Andy Reid showed up. I was a little surprised the Rams did not make the list just because of the recent decline (or implosion) formerly under HC Jeff Fisher (but at least the Rams have the Mike Martz era of victories (1999-2003 or so).
 
Re:

Alpe d'Huez said:
As to the Garrett, he quipped to Jerry Jones to please trade for him so he could play in Dallas instead of Cleveland, but the Browns would be a very nice landing spot for him. He'll be part of a young, big DL with potential that is mostly good already at stopping the run, leaving him as the pass-rush guy. And he'll have Jamie Collins backing him up. If games truly are won and lost in the trenches, this could be the start of a serious defensive foundation.

It's really hard to tell what shape the Browns are in, but they are starting to look young, deep, with a lot of draft picks coming up, and still flush with cash. If this pans out, and I know that's a big if, they could be the next version of Pete Carroll's 2012-14 Seahawks, or what we have just seen the Raiders do. But that's saying a lot. They still don't have a franchise QB, or anything close to it. Still, there's a lot of potential there to give Browns fans hope for the future.

Or they could just botch it, once again, Cleveland style, and fizzle out into another decade of 3-13 seasons and draft pick busts.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000503270/article/pain-rankings-no-1-the-cleveland-browns
Good article on the Pain Rankings...........that's a lot of pain ! I think the Bills multiple Super Bowl loss run would have been awful for their fans not to mention the franchise in general.
 
All of the QB talk lately has got me thinking. How can NFL teams who need a QB deal with the apparent lack of QB talent coming into the NFL? I think partly to blame are the college (& high school) spread schemes, which are much easier (due to fewer reads by the QB as the offensive scheme puts a specific defender at risk) to teach and tough to defend if defenses do not have enough athletes to stop the spread attacks. Fueling that, it seems that more and more that young high school athletes with size (6'2" to 6'5") want to and do play either WR or QB, adding to the supply of college teams coveting those kinds of players. I am not absolutely positive that is a legitimate connection. It's just an observation. [Even so there are still high schools running run-based wing-T offenses partly because they don't have anyone who can throw]. In the end, many college QB draftees are just not ready for the NFL offensive schemes.

So if so many NFL teams are starving for QBs, why don't some of those teams try scrapping their pro style schemes and implement spread schemes? In theory, many of the QBs coming out of college would then be more "NFL ready", and it could possibly transform weaker NFL offenses into more formidable ones. Also, many of the college offensive linemen who played in spread or RPO offenses would be more NFL ready as well. [We could even take it further, why doesn't the NFL change offensive rules and officiating to make spread schemes easier to implement? I mean, it could end up creating more parity across the league. But I won't go that far yet.] I have a hunch a typical spread scheme in the NFL would not really work, or work well enough to stick. Why not? It goes back to the concept of the spread offense putting a defender at risk (by play design, the QB knows who that defender is and who to read), and all the QB has to do is read how that defender reacts, thereby cutting the number of QB reads down to one or two. I think that NFL defenses have more athletes to cover that type of offensive attack and would find ways to defeat or stymie the offense. Check and mate. It's a cat and mouse game.

Just tossing out thoughts here. What do you think?

If that is the case, it is a shame in a way that so many college teams are running spread schemes. It dilutes NFL-ready talent!
 
on3m@n@rmy said:
All of the QB talk lately has got me thinking. How can NFL teams who need a QB deal with the apparent lack of QB talent coming into the NFL? I think partly to blame are the college (& high school) spread schemes, which are much easier (due to fewer reads by the QB as the offensive scheme puts a specific defender at risk) to teach and tough to defend if defenses do not have enough athletes to stop the spread attacks. Fueling that, it seems that more and more that young high school athletes with size (6'2" to 6'5") want to and do play either WR or QB, adding to the supply of college teams coveting those kinds of players. I am not absolutely positive that is a legitimate connection. It's just an observation. [Even so there are still high schools running run-based wing-T offenses partly because they don't have anyone who can throw]. In the end, many college QB draftees are just not ready for the NFL offensive schemes.

So if so many NFL teams are starving for QBs, why don't some of those teams try scrapping their pro style schemes and implement spread schemes? In theory, many of the QBs coming out of college would then be more "NFL ready", and it could possibly transform weaker NFL offenses into more formidable ones. Also, many of the college offensive linemen who played in spread or RPO offenses would be more NFL ready as well. [We could even take it further, why doesn't the NFL change offensive rules and officiating to make spread schemes easier to implement? I mean, it could end up creating more parity across the league. But I won't go that far yet.] I have a hunch a typical spread scheme in the NFL would not really work, or work well enough to stick. Why not? It goes back to the concept of the spread offense putting a defender at risk (by play design, the QB knows who that defender is and who to read), and all the QB has to do is read how that defender reacts, thereby cutting the number of QB reads down to one or two. I think that NFL defenses have more athletes to cover that type of offensive attack and would find ways to defeat or stymie the offense. Check and mate. It's a cat and mouse game.

Just tossing out thoughts here. What do you think?

If that is the case, it is a shame in a way that so many college teams are running spread schemes. It dilutes NFL-ready talent!
I think it is Trubisky that's only had 13 starts ! But it's interesting that Prescott and Wentz both came out of last year and some people seem to have not given up on Goff yet. So last year wasn't too bad. Who is the best QB under 25 ? See the vid below :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=148kb-nx5TM
 
movingtarget said:
on3m@n@rmy said:
All of the QB talk lately has got me thinking. How can NFL teams who need a QB deal with the apparent lack of QB talent coming into the NFL? I think partly to blame are the college (& high school) spread schemes, which are much easier (due to fewer reads by the QB as the offensive scheme puts a specific defender at risk) to teach and tough to defend if defenses do not have enough athletes to stop the spread attacks. Fueling that, it seems that more and more that young high school athletes with size (6'2" to 6'5") want to and do play either WR or QB, adding to the supply of college teams coveting those kinds of players. I am not absolutely positive that is a legitimate connection. It's just an observation. [Even so there are still high schools running run-based wing-T offenses partly because they don't have anyone who can throw]. In the end, many college QB draftees are just not ready for the NFL offensive schemes.

So if so many NFL teams are starving for QBs, why don't some of those teams try scrapping their pro style schemes and implement spread schemes? In theory, many of the QBs coming out of college would then be more "NFL ready", and it could possibly transform weaker NFL offenses into more formidable ones. Also, many of the college offensive linemen who played in spread or RPO offenses would be more NFL ready as well. [We could even take it further, why doesn't the NFL change offensive rules and officiating to make spread schemes easier to implement? I mean, it could end up creating more parity across the league. But I won't go that far yet.] I have a hunch a typical spread scheme in the NFL would not really work, or work well enough to stick. Why not? It goes back to the concept of the spread offense putting a defender at risk (by play design, the QB knows who that defender is and who to read), and all the QB has to do is read how that defender reacts, thereby cutting the number of QB reads down to one or two. I think that NFL defenses have more athletes to cover that type of offensive attack and would find ways to defeat or stymie the offense. Check and mate. It's a cat and mouse game.

Just tossing out thoughts here. What do you think?

If that is the case, it is a shame in a way that so many college teams are running spread schemes. It dilutes NFL-ready talent!
I think it is Trubisky that's only had 13 starts ! But it's interesting that Prescott and Wentz both came out of last year and some people seem to have not given up on Goff yet. So last year wasn't too bad. Who is the best QB under 25 ? See the vid below :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=148kb-nx5TM
Ok so maybe the nfl qb situation is not as sorry as I feel in terms of eventually getting enough new capable players
 
on3m@n@rmy said:
movingtarget said:
on3m@n@rmy said:
All of the QB talk lately has got me thinking. How can NFL teams who need a QB deal with the apparent lack of QB talent coming into the NFL? I think partly to blame are the college (& high school) spread schemes, which are much easier (due to fewer reads by the QB as the offensive scheme puts a specific defender at risk) to teach and tough to defend if defenses do not have enough athletes to stop the spread attacks. Fueling that, it seems that more and more that young high school athletes with size (6'2" to 6'5") want to and do play either WR or QB, adding to the supply of college teams coveting those kinds of players. I am not absolutely positive that is a legitimate connection. It's just an observation. [Even so there are still high schools running run-based wing-T offenses partly because they don't have anyone who can throw]. In the end, many college QB draftees are just not ready for the NFL offensive schemes.

So if so many NFL teams are starving for QBs, why don't some of those teams try scrapping their pro style schemes and implement spread schemes? In theory, many of the QBs coming out of college would then be more "NFL ready", and it could possibly transform weaker NFL offenses into more formidable ones. Also, many of the college offensive linemen who played in spread or RPO offenses would be more NFL ready as well. [We could even take it further, why doesn't the NFL change offensive rules and officiating to make spread schemes easier to implement? I mean, it could end up creating more parity across the league. But I won't go that far yet.] I have a hunch a typical spread scheme in the NFL would not really work, or work well enough to stick. Why not? It goes back to the concept of the spread offense putting a defender at risk (by play design, the QB knows who that defender is and who to read), and all the QB has to do is read how that defender reacts, thereby cutting the number of QB reads down to one or two. I think that NFL defenses have more athletes to cover that type of offensive attack and would find ways to defeat or stymie the offense. Check and mate. It's a cat and mouse game.

Just tossing out thoughts here. What do you think?

If that is the case, it is a shame in a way that so many college teams are running spread schemes. It dilutes NFL-ready talent!
I think it is Trubisky that's only had 13 starts ! But it's interesting that Prescott and Wentz both came out of last year and some people seem to have not given up on Goff yet. So last year wasn't too bad. Who is the best QB under 25 ? See the vid below :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=148kb-nx5TM
Ok so maybe the nfl qb situation is not as sorry as I feel in terms of eventually getting enough new capable players
No I think you are right especially with QBs but I think some years are better than others. This year not so good. Some NFL pundits don't see any of the upcoming draft QBs starting this season. It seems that even the good ones don't seem to be NFL ready yet, not even close.
 
Aug 9, 2012
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@on3m@n@rmy The Lions fell off because of the injury to Staffords finger. He was still able to throw pretty well. The problem was he couldn't scramble much due to him needing both hands to secure the ball.

He had used his scrambling and quick release to help the oline out in pass protection. Additionally Theo Riddicks ability on check downs and pass blocking meant defenses needed to stay back. Then his center went down in game 13 W@saints, as well as Riddick. He was still able to compensate with his scrambling and quick release. But then his finger got hurt in game 14 W vs Bears. Stafford was able to get the win by running over some guys:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz4Zs3tQpS4

The splint on the finger hurt his ball security more than just the injury itself. This left him with only his quick release and shaky accuracy to win games. Had the center(Swanson) or Riddick been available he could have either had a cleaner pocket or someone the defense needed to respect due to his open field ability, I believe they would have been OK.

Even then the offense still had a chance. But the receivers let him down with too many drops.

Aditionally, the defense had started to mesh, but then they redid it again to accomadate Levy who was coming back off an injury. I suspect this in hind sight was a bad move, since Levy was not back to his old form at all. Still they kept playing him in the hopes he would find his groove.

Of course, Ansah was starting to get healthy in these last games, so there was more pass rush available.

Anyway, to make a long story short. When Staffords middle finger got injured, he could no longer compensate for the other injuries on the team, and the offense fell off.

Now if the Lions can get a run game going next year, the team won't be that dependent on Stafford being at 100%.
 
on3m@n@rmy said:
So if so many NFL teams are starving for QBs, why don't some of those teams try scrapping their pro style schemes and implement spread schemes?
Good post.

You answered it yourself, there is enough deep talent on most every NFL team, with quick linebackers, and excellent dime packages, that no offense could consistently run such plays.

Having said that, some QB's do come out of college having run the spread, and adapt quickly enough. Marcus Mariota was be the most obvious. But Alex Smith and Ryan Tannehill also were spread QB's who adapted well. Colin Kaepernick ran a pistol-spread offense at Nevada.

I think you hinted at a better solution though. There has to be some way for an NFL team to look at a talented QB from a college spread offense, and figure out how to adapt the offense enough, to an offense that runs many spread plays. If you look at the way some teams run some plays now, it's not that much of a leap. Here's a good article on it.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/12722348/nfl-better-figure-how-use-college-spread-qbs-clayton-mailbag

The guy mentions Jake Locker, but Locker played well when not hurt. He retired early because he was so banged up. He also points out that RG3 ran a spread in college, he did for his first 2 starting years, his senior year he had much more control over the offense, and his down the field throws showed that. He also mentions Weeden, and while OSU was very pass oriented and he took nearly all snaps from shotgun, and ran a hurry up with silent snap counts often, they didn't run a traditional spread like that.

Recall the Run and Shoot? (Or "Chuck and Duck" as Buddy Ryan called it). That was a form of spread that often had 4-5 wides and per-determined patterns with receivers in motion at the line, but the run and shoot was also heavily run based, as teams would have an RB that could find gaps in a spread out line to gain 5+ yards per carry, shortening the field for the short passes the "shoot" aspect relied on. Even if you look at Portland State with Neil Lomax (coached by June Jones and Mouse Davis) he often threw the ball down the field deep, and had a very good NFL career.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
on3m@n@rmy said:
So if so many NFL teams are starving for QBs, why don't some of those teams try scrapping their pro style schemes and implement spread schemes?
Good post.

You answered it yourself, there is enough deep talent on most every NFL team, with quick linebackers, and excellent dime packages, that no offense could consistently run such plays.

Having said that, some QB's do come out of college having run the spread, and adapt quickly enough. Marcus Mariota was be the most obvious. But Alex Smith and Ryan Tannehill also were spread QB's who adapted well. Colin Kaepernick ran a pistol-spread offense at Nevada.

I think you hinted at a better solution though. There has to be some way for an NFL team to look at a talented QB from a college spread offense, and figure out how to adapt the offense enough, to an offense that runs many spread plays. If you look at the way some teams run some plays now, it's not that much of a leap. Here's a good article on it.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/12722348/nfl-better-figure-how-use-college-spread-qbs-clayton-mailbag

The guy mentions Jake Locker, but Locker played well when not hurt. He retired early because he was so banged up. He also points out that RG3 ran a spread in college, he did for his first 2 starting years, his senior year he had much more control over the offense, and his down the field throws showed that. He also mentions Weeden, and while OSU was very pass oriented and he took nearly all snaps from shotgun, and ran a hurry up with silent snap counts often, they didn't run a traditional spread like that.
First. Great link on "nfl better figure how to use college spread QBs". That article was written nearly 2 years ago (April 2015), and the NFL still has not figured out how to use college spread QBs (or offenses, not that they are really trying hard to figure how to use the spread offense).

But the guy, who wrote the article, is (as can see in the link) John Clayton. Before I started to read it I did not pay attention to who wrote it. As I was reading I thought, "This guy knows some things". Then I saw it was none other than The Doctor, John Clayton, whose knows his stuff and writes good commentaries.

At the time of the writing we did not know how Mariota or Winston would work out. Now that we have seen their performances, I think it can be said not all spread QBs are doomed to bust. And I agree with Clayton that scouting and selecting the right spread QB is not only a challenge but critical to success.

A rabbit trail is the nice discussion by Clayton on why spread QBs tend to struggle adapting to NFL schemes. But I did not want to go there other than to point the person interested in that to the article.

Enough about "the guy" who wrote the piece. How about the process? I previously forgot to say one thing about why spread offenses in the NFL typically would not work, but you aimed at it with:
no offense could consistently run such plays
Which OFC I agree. You and I both mentioned some reasons (NFL defender's talent and depth). Part of the reason the defense would prevail against a typical spread offensive is all the defense has to do is force the QB into having to make more than two reads. NOW the QB is in no mans land (for him) because he would not be accustomed to making more than 2 reads. Situation ripe for the QB to make a critical mistake. The defense would not have to stop every play, just be able to force the QB into mistakes more often than not.

You hinted at the solution with:
There has to be some way for an NFL team to look at a talented QB from a college spread offense, and figure out how to adapt the offense enough,
So continuing from the previous paragraph, the goal of the offensive coordinator would be to get the spread QB comfortable with consistently making more than two reads (in other words, teach the spread QB to go through progressions, get good at the long ball, and get good at seeing and taking advantage of mismatches between receivers and defenders). That is the only way I can see how a spread offense would work in the NFL. THAT is the rub, because these spread QBs coming out in drafts have typically not had to do that. I think the spread offense could work in the NFL if spread QBs were successfully taught to read defenses, go through progressions just as in a typical NFL scheme, and be able to throw the long ball. I do not see any way around the QB steep learning curve and process.
 
Aaron Hernandez apparently hanged himself in his jail cell last night. This is days after being found not guilty of double murder of Daniel de Abreu and Safiro Furtado in Boston in 2012, mostly due to a lack of evidence, as Alexander Bradley, who is also charged with the shooting, was the primary witness. It became an issue of whether it was Hernandez, or Bradley who pulled the trigger, and this jury apparently believed Hernandez did not, though he was found guilty for illegal possession of a firearm. Bear in mind he was still in prison for life without parole for murdering Odin Lloyd, and not likely to win any appeal.

His family said there was no way he'd take his own life, but he was in the cell by himself, it was locked, and from the inside the door was partly jammed with items from his cell to keep people from rescuing him once he was discovered apparently.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/04/19/aaron-hernandez-dead-after-being-found-hanged-in-prison-cell/100638226/#
 
Re:

Alpe d'Huez said:
Aaron Hernandez apparently hanged himself in his jail cell last night. This is days after being found not guilty of double murder of Daniel de Abreu and Safiro Furtado in Boston in 2012, mostly due to a lack of evidence, as Alexander Bradley, who is also charged with the shooting, was the primary witness. It became an issue of whether it was Hernandez, or Bradley who pulled the trigger, and this jury apparently believed Hernandez did not, though he was found guilty for illegal possession of a firearm. Bear in mind he was still in prison for life without parole for murdering Odin Lloyd, and not likely to win any appeal.

His family said there was no way he'd take his own life, but he was in the cell by himself, it was locked, and from the inside the door was partly jammed with items from his cell to keep people from rescuing him once he was discovered apparently.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/04/19/aaron-hernandez-dead-after-being-found-hanged-in-prison-cell/100638226/#
Had he chose a different path in life he would be coming up on another contract year while in the prime of his football career.

The world was his oyster but he wasn't interested in living the good life, instead murder and life behind bars was more up his alley. :confused:

I don't get it...
 
Dec 7, 2010
8,773
1
0
Re: Re:

Irondan said:
Alpe d'Huez said:
Aaron Hernandez apparently hanged himself in his jail cell last night. This is days after being found not guilty of double murder of Daniel de Abreu and Safiro Furtado in Boston in 2012, mostly due to a lack of evidence, as Alexander Bradley, who is also charged with the shooting, was the primary witness. It became an issue of whether it was Hernandez, or Bradley who pulled the trigger, and this jury apparently believed Hernandez did not, though he was found guilty for illegal possession of a firearm. Bear in mind he was still in prison for life without parole for murdering Odin Lloyd, and not likely to win any appeal.

His family said there was no way he'd take his own life, but he was in the cell by himself, it was locked, and from the inside the door was partly jammed with items from his cell to keep people from rescuing him once he was discovered apparently.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/04/19/aaron-hernandez-dead-after-being-found-hanged-in-prison-cell/100638226/#
Had he chose a different path in life he would be coming up on another contract year while in the prime of his football career.

The world was his oyster but he wasn't interested in living the good life, instead murder and life behind bars was more up his alley. :confused:

I don't get it...
Sometimes people can't get out of the way of themselves. The life they lead is formed from the life they grew up around. Some can make the change .... others stay with it.

I don't feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for the peoples family's that he decided to end by his criminal actions and I feel sorry for his family and friends.
 
Dec 7, 2010
8,773
1
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Any thoughts on the upcoming draft?

I saw on NFL network that the Texans might go for the Clemson QB. They can not be much worse off so maybe he will work well there.

Being in Houston quite a bit I listen to the sports talk radio here. Man for such a football crazy state, the texans let this town down every year. I don't really understand why they are snake bit but I think the owner and the GM are terrible. Maybe they mess up everything?
 
As entertaining as it was to see Clemson beat Alabama, I can't see them taking Deshaun Watson, or Watson even going in the 1st round, or maybe not even the 2nd round. I mentioned not only the need for him to develop from his college style to the NFL, but at the combine his arm strength was surprisingly weak in the velocity test. Someone who throws 60 has a rocket arm. You want at least 55mph. Watson could post no higher than 49mph. Put another way, 2 mph ball velocity might not seem like a big deal, but it translates to 1 yard traveled on 20 yd throw in same time frame. Think about that. Now picture a 10mph difference (easy math). In a game of inches...

The only other QB in the NFL now that threw that slow was Mike Glennon, which surprised scouts who felt he had a stronger arm watching him play. I imagine both Brady and Peyton Manning didn't throw much faster than the low 50's, but both improved when they hit the NFL. A real strength of Glennon anyway is his very quick reads and accuracy, which works in a short game. We haven't seen Watson play like that. Can Watson improve his speed? Ability to read defenses faster? Coupled with his style of play in college, it's a risk to me.

Mitch Trubisky is the highest rated QB entering the draft. But even he needs a lot of work, and can't be expected to start from week 1. There's a real chance that the Browns could get him with the 12th pick (after taking Garrett at #1). But the Bills need a QB too, maybe. But that would put both he, and Jones on the "needs development" bench.

Houston picks after both of them, at 25. And if I were them, I'd take Pat Mahomes before Watson, as his arm is a lot better. Though he needs work too, it is more likely to me to see Savage start for Houston, then if he struggles, Mahomes gets a shot. I'd also not be surprised if DeShone Kizer of ND is taken before Watson, though he too needs a lot of work.

Having said all that, way too frequently, and I mean WAY TOO frequently, teams that are desperate will be wowed by some aspect of a player, almost always a QB, who performed well in college. Sports media guys are the worst for this, the very worst. I mentioned way in the past that the numbers can show a young BU quarterback in the NFL more likely to succeed than as untested rookie taken on a flyer like this. I could create a large list if I had time.

One surprise to me is that there's talk of the 49ers taking Leonard Fournette with the 2nd pick. A running back. While he looks like a prototypical NFL RB, a Marshawn Lynch type, I think this is high, and he's likely riding a wave on the success of Ezekiel Eliot (running behind one of the best OL's in the league).
 
Dec 7, 2010
8,773
1
0
Re:

Alpe d'Huez said:
As entertaining as it was to see Clemson beat Alabama, I can't see them taking Deshaun Watson, or Watson even going in the 1st round, or maybe not even the 2nd round. I mentioned not only the need for him to develop from his college style to the NFL, but at the combine his arm strength was surprisingly weak in the velocity test. Someone who throws 60 has a rocket arm. You want at least 55mph. Watson could post no higher than 49mph. Put another way, 2 mph ball velocity might not seem like a big deal, but it translates to 1 yard traveled on 20 yd throw in same time frame. Think about that. Now picture a 10mph difference (easy math). In a game of inches...

The only other QB in the NFL now that threw that slow was Mike Glennon, which surprised scouts who felt he had a stronger arm watching him play. I imagine both Brady and Peyton Manning didn't throw much faster than the low 50's, but both improved when they hit the NFL. A real strength of Glennon anyway is his very quick reads and accuracy, which works in a short game. We haven't seen Watson play like that. Can Watson improve his speed? Ability to read defenses faster? Coupled with his style of play in college, it's a risk to me.

Mitch Trubisky is the highest rated QB entering the draft. But even he needs a lot of work, and can't be expected to start from week 1. There's a real chance that the Browns could get him with the 12th pick (after taking Garrett at #1). But the Bills need a QB too, maybe. But that would put both he, and Jones on the "needs development" bench.

Houston picks after both of them, at 25. And if I were them, I'd take Pat Mahomes before Watson, as his arm is a lot better. Though he needs work too, it is more likely to me to see Savage start for Houston, then if he struggles, Mahomes gets a shot. I'd also not be surprised if DeShone Kizer of ND is taken before Watson, though he too needs a lot of work.

Having said all that, way too frequently, and I mean WAY TOO frequently, teams that are desperate will be wowed by some aspect of a player, almost always a QB, who performed well in college. Sports media guys are the worst for this, the very worst. I mentioned way in the past that the numbers can show a young BU quarterback in the NFL more likely to succeed than as untested rookie taken on a flyer like this. I could create a large list if I had time.

One surprise to me is that there's talk of the 49ers taking Leonard Fournette with the 2nd pick. A running back. While he looks like a prototypical NFL RB, a Marshawn Lynch type, I think this is high, and he's likely riding a wave on the success of Ezekiel Eliot (running behind one of the best OL's in the league).
Good takes.

I think Fournette will be what the Saints got from Ingram. Not much. Ok but nothing spectacular.
 
Re:

Alpe d'Huez said:
As entertaining as it was to see Clemson beat Alabama, I can't see them taking Deshaun Watson, or Watson even going in the 1st round, or maybe not even the 2nd round. I mentioned not only the need for him to develop from his college style to the NFL, but at the combine his arm strength was surprisingly weak in the velocity test. Someone who throws 60 has a rocket arm. You want at least 55mph. Watson could post no higher than 49mph. Put another way, 2 mph ball velocity might not seem like a big deal, but it translates to 1 yard traveled on 20 yd throw in same time frame. Think about that. Now picture a 10mph difference (easy math). In a game of inches...

The only other QB in the NFL now that threw that slow was Mike Glennon, which surprised scouts who felt he had a stronger arm watching him play. I imagine both Brady and Peyton Manning didn't throw much faster than the low 50's, but both improved when they hit the NFL. A real strength of Glennon anyway is his very quick reads and accuracy, which works in a short game. We haven't seen Watson play like that. Can Watson improve his speed? Ability to read defenses faster? Coupled with his style of play in college, it's a risk to me.

Mitch Trubisky is the highest rated QB entering the draft. But even he needs a lot of work, and can't be expected to start from week 1. There's a real chance that the Browns could get him with the 12th pick (after taking Garrett at #1). But the Bills need a QB too, maybe. But that would put both he, and Jones on the "needs development" bench.

Houston picks after both of them, at 25. And if I were them, I'd take Pat Mahomes before Watson, as his arm is a lot better. Though he needs work too, it is more likely to me to see Savage start for Houston, then if he struggles, Mahomes gets a shot. I'd also not be surprised if DeShone Kizer of ND is taken before Watson, though he too needs a lot of work.

Having said all that, way too frequently, and I mean WAY TOO frequently, teams that are desperate will be wowed by some aspect of a player, almost always a QB, who performed well in college. Sports media guys are the worst for this, the very worst. I mentioned way in the past that the numbers can show a young BU quarterback in the NFL more likely to succeed than as untested rookie taken on a flyer like this. I could create a large list if I had time.

One surprise to me is that there's talk of the 49ers taking Leonard Fournette with the 2nd pick. A running back. While he looks like a prototypical NFL RB, a Marshawn Lynch type, I think this is high, and he's likely riding a wave on the success of Ezekiel Eliot (running behind one of the best OL's in the league).
I'd be surprised if the 49ers took an RB as their first pick and it seems to be a good draft for RBs. But there has been rumors about trading Carlos Hyde who is currently their number one RB which I think would be stupid. I have a feeling that the 49ers will go defense for their first pick and probably QB for the second or third depending on how they assess the QB talent which is pretty patchy this year. But after signing the two free agent QBs from Chicago they still have QB spots to fill. Some people rate Mixon as a better RB than Fournette because he is much more versatile but the 49ers will be one of the teams that won't even look at Mixon after recently dumping Brock and Bruce Miller for off field bad behavior.
 
Re: Re:

Semper Fidelis said:
Irondan said:
Alpe d'Huez said:
Aaron Hernandez apparently hanged himself in his jail cell last night. This is days after being found not guilty of double murder of Daniel de Abreu and Safiro Furtado in Boston in 2012, mostly due to a lack of evidence, as Alexander Bradley, who is also charged with the shooting, was the primary witness. It became an issue of whether it was Hernandez, or Bradley who pulled the trigger, and this jury apparently believed Hernandez did not, though he was found guilty for illegal possession of a firearm. Bear in mind he was still in prison for life without parole for murdering Odin Lloyd, and not likely to win any appeal.

His family said there was no way he'd take his own life, but he was in the cell by himself, it was locked, and from the inside the door was partly jammed with items from his cell to keep people from rescuing him once he was discovered apparently.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/04/19/aaron-hernandez-dead-after-being-found-hanged-in-prison-cell/100638226/#
Had he chose a different path in life he would be coming up on another contract year while in the prime of his football career.

The world was his oyster but he wasn't interested in living the good life, instead murder and life behind bars was more up his alley. :confused:

I don't get it...
Sometimes people can't get out of the way of themselves. The life they lead is formed from the life they grew up around. Some can make the change .... others stay with it.

I don't feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for the peoples family's that he decided to end by his criminal actions and I feel sorry for his family and friends.
Chris Carter had a very good take on why Hernandez's lifestyle was what it was. And Shannon Sharp had some good thoughts too. CC:
Money doesn't change people, it just makes them bigger at what they already are.
Below, the entire video is worth a watch. The quote above starts at about 2:55.
https://youtu.be/XbMt-AS0OnM
 
Re: Re:

Semper Fidelis said:
Alpe d'Huez said:
As entertaining as it was to see Clemson beat Alabama, I can't see them taking Deshaun Watson, or Watson even going in the 1st round, or maybe not even the 2nd round. I mentioned not only the need for him to develop from his college style to the NFL, but at the combine his arm strength was surprisingly weak in the velocity test. Someone who throws 60 has a rocket arm. You want at least 55mph. Watson could post no higher than 49mph. Put another way, 2 mph ball velocity might not seem like a big deal, but it translates to 1 yard traveled on 20 yd throw in same time frame. Think about that. Now picture a 10mph difference (easy math). In a game of inches...

The only other QB in the NFL now that threw that slow was Mike Glennon, which surprised scouts who felt he had a stronger arm watching him play. I imagine both Brady and Peyton Manning didn't throw much faster than the low 50's, but both improved when they hit the NFL. A real strength of Glennon anyway is his very quick reads and accuracy, which works in a short game. We haven't seen Watson play like that. Can Watson improve his speed? Ability to read defenses faster? Coupled with his style of play in college, it's a risk to me.

Mitch Trubisky is the highest rated QB entering the draft. But even he needs a lot of work, and can't be expected to start from week 1. There's a real chance that the Browns could get him with the 12th pick (after taking Garrett at #1). But the Bills need a QB too, maybe. But that would put both he, and Jones on the "needs development" bench.

Houston picks after both of them, at 25. And if I were them, I'd take Pat Mahomes before Watson, as his arm is a lot better. Though he needs work too, it is more likely to me to see Savage start for Houston, then if he struggles, Mahomes gets a shot. I'd also not be surprised if DeShone Kizer of ND is taken before Watson, though he too needs a lot of work.

Having said all that, way too frequently, and I mean WAY TOO frequently, teams that are desperate will be wowed by some aspect of a player, almost always a QB, who performed well in college. Sports media guys are the worst for this, the very worst. I mentioned way in the past that the numbers can show a young BU quarterback in the NFL more likely to succeed than as untested rookie taken on a flyer like this. I could create a large list if I had time.

One surprise to me is that there's talk of the 49ers taking Leonard Fournette with the 2nd pick. A running back. While he looks like a prototypical NFL RB, a Marshawn Lynch type, I think this is high, and he's likely riding a wave on the success of Ezekiel Eliot (running behind one of the best OL's in the league).
Good takes.

I think Fournette will be what the Saints got from Ingram. Not much. Ok but nothing spectacular.
Ya, very possible Fournette ends up being unspectacular. Earlier in the thread I kind of railed on Fournette. I won't repeat any of that, but RBs are a dime a dozen IMO. If a team does not have any other huge needs, sure, take a RB high. But I'd address other big needs first before the RB position.

If every team is smart, no QBs will be taken in round 1. But as Alpe said, some team will be desperate and wowed by something to pick them in round 1. One negative on Trubisky, one reason he needs a ton of work is because last season was his first as a starter. He is RAW. Reps count. I am kind of intrigued by Cal's Davis Webb.
 

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