Naturally high hematocrit levels

[Cerberus]

Just a question here.

These dopers that raise their hematocrit levels. If they didn't use saline or blood thinners, would it come down naturally over time, or would it be stuck like that?

It would drop down to their natural level after some time. The excact time would depend on the form of doping used.

 

[Sprocket01]

So you could dope once and then benefit for quite a while?

 

[LastRide]

Dario David Cioni has one, as does Damiano Cunego, Markus Fothen, and even Riccardo Ricco has one (these are just four examples), and they all have a letter from the UCI stating that this is the case, and this is taken into account when they do their blood profiles.

?

Add Cadel EVANS.

 

[Cerberus]

So you could dope once and then benefit for quite a while?

A while yes, take this with a grain of salt, but I believe that regular EPO is effective for a few weeks, Blood tranfusion probably also a few weeks and CERA is effective for more than a month. Of cause the effect near the end of the period is lower than at the peak. You can't dope in January and expect it to be effective in the Tour, but you could take CERA before the Tour and benefit throughout, including benefits after the CERA is no longer detectable.

 

[elapid]

Just a question here.

These dopers that raise their hematocrit levels. If they didn't use saline or blood thinners, would it come down naturally over time, or would it be stuck like that?

Life span of a normal red blood cell is 120 days. This should be the same for EPO induced increases in red blood cell mass (hence increased hematocrit). Red blood cell life spans will be decreased with blood transfusions, and this will depend on how long the blood has been stored prior to transfusion.

 

[Cerberus]

Life span of a normal red blood cell is 120 days. This should be the same for EPO induced increases in red blood cell mass (hence increased hematocrit). Red blood cell life spans will be decreased with blood transfusions, and this will depend on how long the blood has been stored prior to transfusion.

True, but there is a negative feedback cycle, so boosting your RBC count will lower RBC production and return the concentration to normal much faster than 120 days.

 

[blackcat]

Add Cadel EVANS.

have not heard of this. I would be surprised, because usually these exceptions are pretty prominent.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I have never been to Mammoth Lakes but my trips to that side of the Sierra has always been lacking in scenery - something that Flagstaff has plenty of with mountains with Pines, Aspens, and the ride to Sedona is one of the best I have ever been on.

Where did you go when there??? Arizona is indeed beautiful, but the eastern Sierras are spectacular. The late photographer Galen Rowell said highway 395 and the roads off it was the most beautiful mountain scenery in the US to him, and he traveled as much as anyone. I tend to agree.

Though it may be a matter of taste, I suppose?

These dopers that raise their hematocrit levels. If they didn't use saline or blood thinners, would it come down naturally over time, or would it be stuck like that?

Short term (weeks) yes.

I believe in the numbers Joe Papp posted, his hct actually ended up lower long term (months, years) than what he naturally had before doping. Can't find the exact link on his site, but he posted some alarming numbers once.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Where did you go when there??? Arizona is indeed beautiful, but the eastern Sierras are spectacular. The late photographer Galen Rowell said highway 395 and the roads off it was the most beautiful mountain scenery in the US to him, and he traveled as much as anyone. I tend to agree.

Though it may be a matter of taste, I suppose?

I have family who live in Inyokern (near Ridgecrest) and I have been up into the tree line in the snow to Kennedy Meadows, and have traveled through the Lake Isabella area - nice climbs but very dry.

I also did the Death Ride this year so got down to the 395 from Monitor Pass (dry again although I thought Markleeville was a nice place to ride and camp).

 

[craig1985]

If I were a professional, I don't think I could do blood transfusions. I'm not a fan of needles (nearly fainted when I tried to donate blood once), especially around my veins, and having to extract blood and then put it back in. I don't like blood tests at the best of times, let alone transfuse blood. F**K that.

 

[Four Winds]

An increased Hct can occur either due to a decrease in plasma volume (dehydration) or an increase in red cell mass (polycythaemia)

Primary polycythaemia is a bone marrow disorder caused by a gene (Jak-2)becoming constantly switched on within the immature red cells. This causes them to grow out of control. It is not usually a genetic disease in the sense that it is passed on to other family members and it tends to be more common in older people. I would say that in general patients with uncontrolled primary polycythaemia would feel pretty rough and there is a risk of transformation to acute leukaemia. Haven't seen many cases in 20-30 year olds though it is certainly possible and would be highly surprised if many professional cyclists had this.

Secondary polycythaemia can be caused by many things: smoking, high altitude (we're talking Andes/Himalayas here), lung diseases and certain tumours which release Epo esp tumours of the kidney and liver and the rare cerebellar haemangioblastoma! With regard to high altitude, this seeems to occur in people who stay at high altitude all the time.

Another possibility and the most intereseting case from a sporting perspective I've heard is that of a Finnish cross country skiier called Eero Mantyranta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eero_Mäntyranta) who was a triple Olympic gold medallist and from a family that had a genetic defect of their Epo receptor gene. Over 200 of his family members were subsequently found to be positive. As folk have said the Epo receptor senses Epo & tells us when to make red cells. Without Epo stimulation it gets switched off and we stop making blood. Old Eero's family had a defective receptor that was constantly switched on, hence the high Hct. Ironically I think he was eventually done for another doping offence in the twilight of his career, as if he didn't have enough of an advantage already! Pockets of Epo receptor mutations do occur. One big one is in the Chuvash Republic of central Russia.

 

[python]

An increased Hct can occur either due to a decrease in plasma volume (dehydration) or an increase in red cell mass (polycythaemia)

Primary polycythaemia is a bone marrow disorder caused by a gene (Jak-2)becoming constantly switched on within the immature red cells. This causes them to grow out of control. It is not usually a genetic disease in the sense that it is passed on to other family members and it tends to be more common in older people. I would say that in general patients with uncontrolled primary polycythaemia would feel pretty rough and there is a risk of transformation to acute leukaemia. Haven't seen many cases in 20-30 year olds though it is certainly possible and would be highly surprised if many professional cyclists had this.

Secondary polycythaemia can be caused by many things: smoking, high altitude (we're talking Andes/Himalayas here), lung diseases and certain tumours which release Epo esp tumours of the kidney and liver and the rare cerebellar haemangioblastoma! With regard to high altitude, this seeems to occur in people who stay at high altitude all the time.

Another possibility and the most intereseting case from a sporting perspective I've heard is that of a Finnish cross country skiier called Eero Mantyranta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eero_Mäntyranta) who was a triple Olympic gold medallist and from a family that had a genetic defect of their Epo receptor gene. Over 200 of his family members were subsequently found to be positive. As folk have said the Epo receptor senses Epo & tells us when to make red cells. Without Epo stimulation it gets switched off and we stop making blood. Old Eero's family had a defective receptor that was constantly switched on, hence the high Hct. Ironically I think he was eventually done for another doping offence in the twilight of his career, as if he didn't have enough of an advantage already! Pockets of Epo receptor mutations do occur. One big one is in the Chuvash Republic of central Russia.

curiously enough, chuvash are considered a finnish ethnic group. Ivanov a rider on Katusha is also chuvash. don't know if he has the elevated hct.

 

[Kennf1]

If I were a professional, I don't think I could do blood transfusions. I'm not a fan of needles (nearly fainted when I tried to donate blood once), especially around my veins, and having to extract blood and then put it back in. I don't like blood tests at the best of times, let alone transfuse blood. F**K that.

I'm sure a of riders feel the same way. But when the choice is either continue riding professionally or go back home and wait tables ...

 

[python]

curiously enough, chuvash are considered a finnish ethnic group. Ivanov a rider on Katusha is also chuvash. don't know if he has the elevated hct.

i decided to search a bit more on Ivanov’s hematocrit…he’s not likely to have the uci dispensation like cunego:
http://www.tdfblog.com/erik_zabel/

‘Ivanov was dropped from the 2000 Tour for a too-high hematocrit.’

 

[blackcat]

I'm sure a of riders feel the same way. But when the choice is either continue riding professionally or go back home and wait tables ...

dont think the "uneducated peasant" canard holds true any more. See Frischkorn, by all reports a talent individual and polymath, albeit without the paper diploma. Lots have options, but the sport is existential. They are drawn to it.

 

[blackcat]

Where did you go when there??? Arizona is indeed beautiful, but the eastern Sierras are spectacular. The late photographer Galen Rowell said highway 395 and the roads off it was the most beautiful mountain scenery in the US to him, and he traveled as much as anyone. I tend to agree.

Though it may be a matter of taste, I suppose?


Short term (weeks) yes.

I believe in the numbers Joe Papp posted, his hct actually ended up lower long term (months, years) than what he naturally had before doping. Can't find the exact link on his site, but he posted some alarming numbers once.

Pantani had that problem.

 

[WD-40.]

Pantani had that problem.

There was some talk about this but certainly as far as I am aware it was never confirmed and seems likely to be just an urban myth.

Although extremely rare PRCA did occur in some patients and is sadly a devistating condition.

 

[stephens]

People look at me and assume I'd be a natural climber - 6'0" and <65kg. And maybe I would be if I could get some damn oxygen to my muscles. My hematocrit was 35 in August. (no dietary deficiencies, kidney and liver fine, etc.: no one knows why). I'd be very curious to see what life would feel like with a normal hematocrit.

 

[craig1985]

dont think the "uneducated peasant" canard holds true any more. See Frischkorn, by all reports a talent individual and polymath, albeit without the paper diploma. Lots have options, but the sport is existential. They are drawn to it.

Zulle said it was either dopeo r go back and painting houses. I don't know about in Switzerland, but in Australia they tend to earn good money, more money then a lot of pros earn. I used to earn $39,500AUD a year ($36,750US) and a lot of pro bike riders would kill to earn that.

 

[Cerberus]

People look at me and assume I'd be a natural climber - 6'0" and <65kg. And maybe I would be if I could get some damn oxygen to my muscles. My hematocrit was 35 in August. (no dietary deficiencies, kidney and liver fine, etc.: no one knows why). I'd be very curious to see what life would feel like with a normal hematocrit.

I'm not a doctor, but isn't that low enough that you could get EPO or a similar product for medical reasons?

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Found this abstract for a Schumacher paper.... "We investigated 523 blood samples of 92 male elite cyclists (age 16-31 years) from 1978 to 1987. Haematocrit, haemoglobin and red blood cell count were analysed automatically, erythrocyte indices were calculated. RESULTS: Haemoglobin (-0.3 +/- 1 g/dl), haematocrit (-1.2 +/- 2.8%) and red blood cell count (-0.2 +/- 0.4 x 10(6)/mm3) decreased significantly (p < 0.05) with increasing training workload. The erythrocyte indices showed no significant change. Fifty-four blood samples (10.3%) showed a haematocrit above 50%, one sample presented a haemoglobin mass higher than 18.5 g/dl."

Would be interesting to know how they measured the hematocrit of stored blood though.

 

[Escarabajo]

People look at me and assume I'd be a natural climber - 6'0" and <65kg. And maybe I would be if I could get some damn oxygen to my muscles. My hematocrit was 35 in August. (no dietary deficiencies, kidney and liver fine, etc.: no one knows why). I'd be very curious to see what life would feel like with a normal hematocrit.

In my blood charts I see that below 37-38 hematocrit is below average and therefore a red flag. You might want to discuss it with your Doctor again.

 

[yakko!]

I wonder if things such as gene dopingcan manipulate the values?

It says it's muscles, but nothing would surprise me I suppose...

 

[Anonymous]

Add Cadel EVANS.

From his book, it says everytime he's been tested (since he was in his teens) it has always lay between 42 and 44...

Also, VO2 Max is consistently in the high 80s (since his late-teens testing at the AIS)

 

[karlboss]

I thought cadel held the record at the AIS at or just over 90 for Vo2. Not that it makes much difference.