New site design

[titan_90]

In the meantime I'll see what SBS can offer for us Aussies - that may be a suitable fix.

I will check them out even though I live in the US. Cyclingnews was superior to all other sites, I haven't been able to find anything that can curb my withdraw

 

[stefan]

Then it should be no problem to bring back full results without lots of extra clicking nescessary. Just to give you one example.

We are discussing the open-close aspect of the full results display, thanks to suggestions in here.

Do you really think the new users will make up for the loss of old users?

Random guesswork seems pointless - only time will tell. But from the traffic figures, we seem to be actually increasing as a consequence of the relaunch. Could be a statistical blip, of course. But if you want a random, unsubstantiated guess based on nothing more than experience from previous launches, equally controversial - lots of people say they'll never come back, but only a very small number actually do. Let's chat about it again, after the Tour?

I sure will give you a chance, as long as the information I seek is available (and that means that *I* have to be able to find it) but is it really nescessary to make it that complicated, slow. Why start before it is done? Why flash?

A chance is all we ask for. We hope that the site is neither complicated or slow. If it is, we'll fix those issues. Flash has a number of advantages when building rich media displays - firstly, it's platform independent, unlike similar solutions build with say jQuery. If it works, it works in ALL browsers that support Flash (which 99% do). Otherwise, we'd have to ensure it works in IE (6,7,8), Firefox, Safari etc, which has proven labour-intensive on for exampe http://www.techradar.com. Secondly, Flash is made for these things - as an example of what we can do with a flash carousel, check out http://www.totalfilm.com - it can even play video in the carousel. Thirdly, the flash carousel is nicely stand-alone as a component, meaning that it can be reused.

So, if the website was to have a carousel - which was a stated requirement - choosing flash was a straight-forward decision.

Good luck!

disappointed-10year-almost-daily-reader

Many thanks

 

[pedrospeeps]

why keep this forum open

Sure; it'll cost you the full-time salaries of about five people with html, Photoshop, regular expression and Excel skills. Send us your bank details and we'll set up a direct debit.

The old site was a nightmare to update. It required an arcane set of skills that were hard to find in any one individual and rarely combined with knowledge of cycling and ability to write.

It's not, under any circumstances, coming back.

Teething troubles aside, what we have now is a platform that allows Cyclingnews to grow both journalistically and as a business.

I am not sure if you guys at cyclingnews understand what you have done. Why keep a forum open after you have said what you have said in this quote.

If the old page does not come back I am sure you will loose you old readership and welcome your new readership...it is just a shame because we are loyal readers for many years and don't want to loose a friend, but your website now is un-useable and I have already gone. I have read the over night forum but I am at a loss to understand the staffs attitude, things are being said here which will be hard for you to take back. Why not say you are looking into all the possiblities to make the site better, rather than say "It's not, under any circumstances, coming back." which says to me you are not interested in any of this forum discussion.

I am new to forums, so don't know what they really do. I have never felt so strongly about a website in 15 years and to write in a 'forum' ! but reading this forum I guess I understand the decisions have been made and that's that.

As Greg would say "Cheers'

 

[stefan]

Can I just point out - I'm here responding to people's concerns, updating them on the progress and ensuring that the voice here leads to actual developments with the updates that we roll out on the website. That I seem to have become the face of all evil as a result is, frankly, baffling and nonsensical.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

Greg - that was my role yesterday

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

I don't remember who it was who complained about their Mac and Safari and the site crashing. I am on my MacBook now with Safari and have absolutely no problems with the site.

The good thing is that the text sections fills my screen and I don't have to look at the flowers!

(Oops, should I have said that?)

Susan, one of the "many women" at CN

 

[titan_90]

So, if the website was to have a carousel - which was a stated requirement - choosing flash was a straight-forward decision.

The only thing worse than the carousel is the spoilers but I can at least block the annoying thing. That's what I wish I could do with the spoilers..

 

[Animal]

All you have to do IMHO, to make it as easy as before, is move the News Editions to the top, and get rid of the Flash headline <blink>y type thing (I'll do that last bit myself actually)

 

[stefan]

I am not sure if you guys at cyclingnews understand what you have done. Why keep a forum open after you have said what you have said in this quote.

If the old page does not come back I am sure you will loose you old readership and welcome your new readership...it is just a shame because we are loyal readers for many years and don't want to loose a friend, but your website now is un-useable and I have already gone. I have read the over night forum but I am at a loss to understand the staffs attitude, things are being said here which will be hard for you to take back. Why not say you are looking into all the possiblities to make the site better, rather than say "It's not, under any circumstances, coming back." which says to me you are not interested in any of this forum discussion.

I am new to forums, so don't know what they really do. I have never felt so strongly about a website in 15 years and to write in a 'forum' ! but reading this forum I guess I understand the decisions have been made and that's that.

As Greg would say "Cheers'

Hi there, pedrospeeps - we are certainly looking into every possible way to make the site better, but it will need to be within the confines of this new platform, as the old one was unmaintainable, and costly to run. Thus, the old site is irretrievably gone as a production tool. This has nothing to do with attitude of staff or anything else - it's simply a statement of the factual situation, like it or not. However, the quality of a website should transcend the actual implementation - and we are most certainly interested in hearing every ounce of feedback (good or bad) to ensure that we can always improve.

 

[titan_90]

I just read that spoilers are hear to stay Sorry I am out of here than, spoilers are a deal breaker for me. It was a nice ride while it lasted. You just killed what made the original site different from all of the cookie cutter news sites.

 

[Anonymous]

All you have to do IMHO, to make it as easy as before, is move the News Editions to the top, and get rid of the Flash headline <blink>y type thing (I'll do that last bit myself actually)

News editions are compiled less often than news stories are posted, so that would push the latest stories further down the front page.

People are accusing us of making things harder to find. Am I right in thinking that you're suggesting we do that deliberately with news stories?

 

[pedrospeeps]

What a mess

Hi there, pedrospeeps - we are certainly looking into every possible way to make the site better, but it will need to be within the confines of this new platform, as the old one was unmaintainable, and costly to run. Thus, the old site is irretrievably gone as a production tool. This has nothing to do with attitude of staff or anything else - it's simply a statement of the factual situation, like it or not. However, the quality of a website should transcend the actual implementation - and we are most certainly interested in hearing every ounce of feedback (good or bad) to ensure that we can always improve.

So Stefan....What a mess. It seems the attitude I am taking about is that the staff are so defensive...I would rather less defense of the new website and more understanding of what you have done. If the old site was technically difficult to update, but worked, why use a new platform and make a mess of the site. It might have been better to create a site that looked like the old one but was easy for you guys to update, it could have been done without loosing one reader. I am sure this is like rats, when you see one there are ten more you don't see. I was not easy to join a forum and start complaining about a site I have loved for years...but I just can't read it...it is too busy and hard to follow. I hope you guys get around the table and cut back on the defensive attitude and work out what is to be done..for me it is just another day in California (I am a Brit) riding my bike...for you it is a mess to clean up!

Kr

 

[wdymtlrt]

Manolo, dimspace,

On the topic of why there's so much white space in news editions - it's because there are content blocks that will be used throughout the year, that are not currently active in this spot. Things like live coverage notices etc. should appear in this space - but as we're not currently covering any events with the live system, there's no block there.

The same template is used for Pro Bikes - but here, as you have all the bike specifications, there's actually content in this space. See here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/thomas-frischknechts-scott-swisspower-scott-genius

I believe the current column structure is preventing us from making this flexible so that when a block is present, it displays like the tech item, and when it's not the news items are spread out further. Would it help if in lieu of a content block like a live coverage notice we had some other content blocks fill in this space? Maybe one with a list of current races another with latest features etc.?

Cheers
Greg Johnson

Not really. Just take two columns, with three it is to much srolling down and up and down again. This is (better than all the white space, but ) still cluttered...

 

[drfunk000]

New design - not a supporter

Like many who've posted in the thread, I much prefer the old site design. Some things were difficult to find in the old design, but these were the things I rarely WANTED to find - all the info I wanted and needed was easily and clearly available.

I don't believe in running a fancy PHP front end unless it actually IS better than what it replaced. In this case, I feel that the new site is several steps backward from what we've previously enjoyed for so long.

I, for one, never, ever visit BikeRadar.com... because I hate the design. I guess the only thing certain in life is change but this is a disappointing change.

Off to Velosnooze and PezCycling!

 

[Ziptie]

Originally Posted by Ziptie

You have to click five times! It's not hard, it's annoying.

Not sure how this quote got attributed to me. What I actually said was "Go to today's Tour de Suisse results, it's all there. Granted, you actually have to click on the down arrow to see the full list of standings, but that's really not that hard."

Greg, Daniel, et al, Aside from a few obvious bugs, I think the new design is great. Though I'm not all that wild about the spoilers either. Clearly there are some kinks to work out, but good on ya for being open to suggestions and working to make improvements. And all those "loyal readers" who's knee jerk reaction was to say "change it back or I'm gone", were obviously not that loyal to begin with.

Keep up the good work.

 

[allingham5]

The "new" look

Sorry guys ... just hate the "new look" site .... takes ages to load, proving very difficult to find anything and read any newa/articles. PLEASE go back to the original design.

Change for the sake of change is NOT an improvement. just a flipping inconvenience for all your readers and more likely to put people off rather than recruiting new members.

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.

 

[stefan]

So Stefan....What a mess. It seems the attitude I am taking about is that the staff are so defensive...I would rather less defense of the new website and more understanding of what you have done. If the old site was technically difficult to update, but worked, why use a new platform and make a mess of the site. It might have been better to create a site that looked like the old one but was easy for you guys to update, it could have been done without loosing one reader. I am sure this is like rats, when you see one there are ten more you don't see. I was not easy to join a forum and start complaining about a site I have loved for years...but I just can't read it...it is too busy and hard to follow. I hope you guys get around the table and cut back on the defensive attitude and work out what is to be done..for me it is just another day in California (I am a Brit) riding my bike...for you it is a mess to clean up!

Kr

Hi Kr - defensive? We try to be courteous, stick to the facts, and encourage a sensible dialog. However, as a team we started this project a year ago, and a lot of 'soul' has been poured into it - just as you do, we feel very passionately about this website, but from the other side of the fence. I guess what I'm saying is that we're not faceless corporate 'droids deliberately out to milk every click for cash, without regard for the heritage of the site, and its audience. We're just normal guys, making websites that we want to see succeed. It's obviously a bit stinging when a bunch of people seemingly rubbishes what you've done without (in some cases at least) taking a cool, calm and collected look at the new system beyond "it's not like it used to be, it must be rubbish".

For us (but largely irrelevant to you, unless we screw up), it's been an achievement to create a database-backed platform that can support an astonishingly high load, on comparatively lowly hardware.

We can take any amount of constructive criticism, but some of us are slightly baffled by the all-out hostility and personal abuse thrown around in places (not from you), as I'm sure you can understand.

The problem with the old site, apart from maintaining and updating it, was that - and I know this may sound wrong to your ears - it only really worked for long-time CN users that had taken the time to climb its learning curve. We wanted something with a more modern look that we can take to advertisers (who pay for the upkeep), and also make the site easier to use from the off for a new user - whilst obviously not losing sight of the raison d'etre for the site - the hard-core racing fans like yourself. We haven't got it perfect - I'll be the first one to put my hands up and admit that. We hope that people will give us a chance, rather than abandoning us after 10 years - and 2 days into its new lease of life.

 

[stefan]

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.

I totally subscribe to that idea, thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Unfortunately, the site was broken, and needed fixing. The system was too outdated to be maintainable, and the creaking look was not an attractive proposition to advertisers, who pay for you to see it for free.

 

[SlowBikeRacer]

Loose the Middle Column

Loose the Middle Column!!! WAY TO MUCH SPACE WASTED
Most are viewing on Laptops and have to score down a lot just to read a simple article.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/73rd-tour-de-suisse-2009-upt/stages/stage-4/report
All that is taking up space is...
Send this page to a friend
Share this page with others
Print this page
Put that stuff at the bottom of the Right Column. Problem sovled.

 

[blowdoors]

No longer the end all for your cycling info

I think the new site has become more fluff than meat and potatoes. What was great about the site before the bad changes was that I could come here and find just about all the information I needed without having to go to 18 other sites. Now with the changes I need to go to the official websites for the particular race that is happening to look up the maps, profiles and start lists. What you at cycling news have done has brought your new version of the site back to the pack with rival sites. I no longer need to come to cycling news and pretty much cycling news alone. The new site has now pushed me to your competitors because of the lack of content now posted within the new site. I know your trying to attract the newbie but, at what cost ? Is it really worth losing your base because of a bunch of flashy nonsense that looks really nice but has no soul. I think you at cycling news should remember what got you where you were.

 

[Cant Climb]

I totally subscribe to that idea, thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Unfortunately, the site was broken, and needed fixing. The system was too outdated to be maintainable, and the creaking look was not an attractive proposition to advertisers, who pay for you to see it for free.

The creaking look was classic, and efficient.....pretty soon you won't have advertisers because there is no reason to visit the site now. The only reason to visit is too see if you brought back the old site....

The old site was the main educator in my cycling knowledge. There was no other site that was as concise and as easy to get at information. No one cares if it is difficult to program we want information quickly....

Seems to me you need to be more articulate and do more research when communicating with your advertisers....

 

[stefan]

pretty soon you won't have advertisers because there is no reason to visit the site now.

Well, that remains to be seen, I think.

The old site was the main educator in my cycling knowledge. There was no other site that was as concise and as easy to get at information. No one cares if it is difficult to program we want information quickly....

There is a cause and effect thing there though. You may not (and rightly so) care how difficult or costly a site is to update, but the more we need to spend on the mechanics, the less we can spend on writing and coverage. So it is actually in your interest, as well as in mine that this process is as streamlined as it can be, in order to get you the information you seek, quickly. And free.

Seems to me you need to be more articulate and do more research when communicating with your advertisers....

I'll let our sales guys know that they should work harder.

 

[stefan]

Now with the changes I need to go to the official websites for the particular race that is happening to look up the maps, profiles and start lists.

All those features will be present, as usual. Real soon now.

 

[campagchris]

OK so we need to be patient,but WHY switch over when your still ironing things out.
Surely you could have left the old site running till the switch over was sorted.
This used to be the first site I visited every day now Its not.

 

[Anonymous]

OK so we need to be patient,but WHY switch over when your still ironing things out.
Surely you could have left the old site running till the switch over was sorted.
This used to be the first site I visited every day now Its not.

We tried that, and it rapidly became obvious that it couldn't be done. We'd have needed to clone each member of the editorial team.

 

[morephyous]

Stefan, thanks for taking the time to respond to users concerns. It's most appreciated. As someone who been involved in 'design' in the past, I know how it feels to be criticised, but it's part of the job.

In regards to advertisers, and the old site being difficult to sell. Are advertisers really concerned with that? Aren't they more concerned with your page rank?

Does the new site look good graphically, yes. Does it look better than the old, yes. Is it easier to hunt down info, no. Is it easier to read, no. The new site is just too busy and tries to do too many things. Simplicity is the key. Darken the text. Space it away from the borders. It's too close to the flowers. Get rid of the centre column in the 'related section'. Move it to the bottom or narrow it to half size.

Bring back letters from users, that was a good read. Bring back local race results and update it weekly. (You have so much space on the lower right). To make it easy to maintain, have a standard submission procedure for race organisers/clubs. Guys who don't race listen to people who race. If they say CN is the site to go to, you will increase page views.