New test for Aicar

[grizzlee]

http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/bad-news-for-dopers-as-theres-now-a-test-for-aicar/
Is this old news? I only came across this today. Hopefully they will be able to retest a lot of old samples in storage.

 

[Benotti69]

Will they retest samples in storage, maybe some small fry, but if they do and catch some, but wont that point big fingers at the likes of Wiggins and Froome who lost weight but not power or in Froome's case increased power!!! Nope Cookson wont restest, not if he wants a knighthood.

 

[The Carrot]

Re:

Will the retest samples in storage, maybe some small fry, but if they do and catch some, wont that point big fingers at the likes of Wiggins and Froome who lost weight but not power or in Froome's case increased power!!! Nope Cookson wont restest, not if he wants a knighthood.

Beat me to it.

 

[grizzlee]

Well what do you know, we finally agree on something Benotti. Lets break out the Bubbly.
What I don't get though why is it all so hush hush and not plastered all over the media. If im not Mistaken Aicar is one of the mostly used doping products in cycling at the moment. Why is this not huge news like when they first got a test for EPO?

 

[King Boonen]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24760559

Published this time last year.

 

[The Carrot]

Re:

Well what do you know, we finally agree on something Benotti. Lets break out the Bubbly.
What I don't get though why is it all so hush hush and not plastered all over the media. If im not Mistaken Aicar is one of the mostly used doping products in cycling at the moment. Why is this not huge news like when they first got a test for EPO?

At a guess, the British media probably won't mention it much as the arrival of AICAR coincides pretty much with the astronomical rise of British cyclists on the world road racing scene, the same scene the British Media are making money from promoting at every opportunity.

 

[neineinei]

No info in the linked "article" indicating this is new, except the date. Why would they retest samples from 2013 and not 2014? It's probably some lejdd.fr article from 2014 they've been reading, like this one: http://www.lejdd.fr/Sport/Dopage-la-molecule-Aicar-va-etre-detectee-672707

There has been an Aicar test for quite some time. No one has been reported caught for Aicar, so either the test is crap, no athletes are using Aicar (anymore (and there hasn't been any retesting)), there is a cover up of Aicar positives, they aren't testing for Aicar, they are only requesting Aicar analysis for samples from archers, curling players and/or rally car drivers, or a mix of two or more of the before mentioned hypotesis'.

 

[grizzlee]

Re:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24760559

Published this time last year.

Well what do you know, its not new at all. Why did they release the announcement of the same test at the same time as last year?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24760559

Published this time last year.

Well what do you know, its not new at all. Why did they release the announcement of the same test at the same time as last year?

It's possible that it's only just been accepted/ratified for use, or maybe the reporter was looking on pubmed and forgot what year it was!

 

[blackcat]

i wanna know the myacera or myocera positives from the 2007 Tour, the one there they had 7 of the CSC guys popped, among the 30 odd riders testing positive.

 

[sniper]

http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/bad-news-for-dopers-as-theres-now-a-test-for-aicar/
Is this old news? I only came across this today. Hopefully they will be able to retest a lot of old samples in storage.

There was a urine test already, but a complicated one with a controversial baseline, and it was only done in Cologne.
Interesting to note is that in 2013 and 2014 the UCI did not send a single sample to Cologne.
viewtopic.php?p=1666914#p1666914

 

[grizzlee]

http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/bad-news-for-dopers-as-theres-now-a-test-for-aicar/
Is this old news? I only came across this today. Hopefully they will be able to retest a lot of old samples in storage.

There was a urine test already, but a complicated one with a controversial baseline, and it was only done in Cologne.
Interesting to note is that in 2013 and 2014 the UCI did not send a single sample to Cologne.
viewtopic.php?p=1666914#p1666914

Thanks for the reply, sounds like the new test is a lot more stable. It will be interesting to see if we have any late high profile riders withdrawing from the tour. Oh what do you know, Frank Schleck withdraws from the tour with mysterious illness.

 

[TheSpud]

http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/bad-news-for-dopers-as-theres-now-a-test-for-aicar/
Is this old news? I only came across this today. Hopefully they will be able to retest a lot of old samples in storage.

There was a urine test already, but a complicated one with a controversial baseline, and it was only done in Cologne.
Interesting to note is that in 2013 and 2014 the UCI did not send a single sample to Cologne.
viewtopic.php?p=1666914#p1666914

Thanks for the reply, sounds like the new test is a lot ore stable. It will be interesting to see if we have any late high profile riders with drawing from the tour. Oh what do you know, Frank Schleck withdraws from the tour with mysterious illness.

But surely the best use of it would have been in training - cant imagine anyone would actually use it during the tour. Therefore withdrawing may not prove anything, unless of course aicar has a very long half life and he wasnt sure he'd be clean for pre tour checks. But if that was the case then he'd run the risk of being popped ooc as well.

 

[sniper]

good point spud.

 

[sniper]

Re:

good point spud.

however, recall that in 2009 AICAR ampulles were found during the TdF, so it was most probably being used in-competition (which doesn't necessarily mean that that is a sensible thing to do, but at least some riders apparently thought it was)

 

[dacooley]

Re:

proper retests = ban for all the cream of gc riders and a huge scandal which destroys a professional cycling completely so that won't happen

 

[frenchfry]

Re:

No info in the linked "article" indicating this is new, except the date. Why would they retest samples from 2013 and not 2014? It's probably some lejdd.fr article from 2014 they've been reading, like this one: http://www.lejdd.fr/Sport/Dopage-la-molecule-Aicar-va-etre-detectee-672707

There has been an Aicar test for quite some time. No one has been reported caught for Aicar, so either the test is crap, no athletes are using Aicar (anymore (and there hasn't been any retesting)), there is a cover up of Aicar positives, they aren't testing for Aicar, they are only requesting Aicar analysis for samples from archers, curling players and/or rally car drivers, or a mix of two or more of the before mentioned hypotesis'.

That would be CURLERS. Sheesh, curling gets no respect even from the clinic.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

good point spud.

however, recall that in 2009 AICAR ampulles were found during the TdF, so it was most probably being used in-competition (which doesn't necessarily mean that that is a sensible thing to do, but at least some riders apparently thought it was)

This is where a lot of doping forum talk really is pseudo-science. The pharmacology of doping is incredibly complex: EPO vs. EPO and HGH isn't just the effects of EPO + the effects of HGH. Insulin by itself can be dangerous, but its interaction with other drugs is its purpose. Even benign supplements like iron and it's absorption are hugely affected by vitamin C, and whether it's with a meal. None of us, neither the riders or DS's or owners, really know how their doping program works. The docs have some idea, but even for them it is just more educated guesswork.

It is incredibly complex, and for sure not something to find out browsing pubmed and wikipedia.

Maybe a little of topic, but it is crazy to me the way doping science has evolved, and knowledge acquired, purely by backroom trial and error. It is typical, that athletes and coaches will learn what works faster than any research institute or publication. Always has been; athletes build the best habits by intuition, that are only later explained by science. (And one reason why Sky's marginal-gain-science-guruism is so infuriating. Sport has never never been led by theory and science, only by experience. But that's an even bigger digression...)

As for AICAR, I'm sure the same mechanics are at play. Everybody and their roommate tries it in different dosages, with different combos of other drugs, and sees how everyone responds. Some will respond well, and then riders start to mimic his approach. Some get sick or perform terribly, and the rest of his circle know what to avoid.

IC, OOC, all just part of the trial and error.

 

[neineinei]

Re: Re:

No info in the linked "article" indicating this is new, except the date. Why would they retest samples from 2013 and not 2014? It's probably some lejdd.fr article from 2014 they've been reading, like this one: http://www.lejdd.fr/Sport/Dopage-la-molecule-Aicar-va-etre-detectee-672707

There has been an Aicar test for quite some time. No one has been reported caught for Aicar, so either the test is crap, no athletes are using Aicar (anymore (and there hasn't been any retesting)), there is a cover up of Aicar positives, they aren't testing for Aicar, they are only requesting Aicar analysis for samples from archers, curling players and/or rally car drivers, or a mix of two or more of the before mentioned hypotesis'.

That would be CURLERS. Sheesh, curling gets no respect even from the clinic.

I respect them, my problem is with the English language. Well, I did respect them, but then some of them decided to go to the golf store to shop for pants.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

good point spud.

however, recall that in 2009 AICAR ampulles were found during the TdF, so it was most probably being used in-competition (which doesn't necessarily mean that that is a sensible thing to do, but at least some riders apparently thought it was)

This is where a lot of doping forum talk really is pseudo-science. The pharmacology of doping is incredibly complex: EPO vs. EPO and HGH isn't just the effects of EPO + the effects of HGH. Insulin by itself can be dangerous, but its interaction with other drugs is its purpose. Even benign supplements like iron and it's absorption are hugely affected by vitamin C, and whether it's with a meal. None of us, neither the riders or DS's or owners, really know how their doping program works. The docs have some idea, but even for them it is just more educated guesswork.

It is incredibly complex, and for sure not something to find out browsing pubmed and wikipedia.

Maybe a little of topic, but it is crazy to me the way doping science has evolved, and knowledge acquired, purely by backroom trial and error. It is typical, that athletes and coaches will learn what works faster than any research institute or publication. Always has been; athletes build the best habits by intuition, that are only later explained by science. (And one reason why Sky's marginal-gain-science-guruism is so infuriating. Sport has never never been led by theory and science, only by experience. But that's an even bigger digression...)

As for AICAR, I'm sure the same mechanics are at play. Everybody and their roommate tries it in different dosages, with different combos of other drugs, and sees how everyone responds. Some will respond well, and then riders start to mimic his approach. Some get sick or perform terribly, and the rest of his circle know what to avoid.

IC, OOC, all just part of the trial and error.

pretty good post.
2010 vuelta springs to mind.
as for aicar, it's said to be most effective in combi with gw1516, but the latter seems relatively easy to test for and has already resulted in several positives.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

good point spud.

however, recall that in 2009 AICAR ampulles were found during the TdF, so it was most probably being used in-competition (which doesn't necessarily mean that that is a sensible thing to do, but at least some riders apparently thought it was)

This is where a lot of doping forum talk really is pseudo-science. The pharmacology of doping is incredibly complex: EPO vs. EPO and HGH isn't just the effects of EPO + the effects of HGH. Insulin by itself can be dangerous, but its interaction with other drugs is its purpose. Even benign supplements like iron and it's absorption are hugely affected by vitamin C, and whether it's with a meal. None of us, neither the riders or DS's or owners, really know how their doping program works. The docs have some idea, but even for them it is just more educated guesswork.

It is incredibly complex, and for sure not something to find out browsing pubmed and wikipedia.

Maybe a little of topic, but it is crazy to me the way doping science has evolved, and knowledge acquired, purely by backroom trial and error. It is typical, that athletes and coaches will learn what works faster than any research institute or publication. Always has been; athletes build the best habits by intuition, that are only later explained by science. (And one reason why Sky's marginal-gain-science-guruism is so infuriating. Sport has never never been led by theory and science, only by experience. But that's an even bigger digression...)

As for AICAR, I'm sure the same mechanics are at play. Everybody and their roommate tries it in different dosages, with different combos of other drugs, and sees how everyone responds. Some will respond well, and then riders start to mimic his approach. Some get sick or perform terribly, and the rest of his circle know what to avoid.

IC, OOC, all just part of the trial and error.

Yep and when suddenly some guy is no hanging on the motorbikes but is blowing everyone away at the front, ALL the rest are trying very hard to find out what is he on.........

 

[Rob27172]

Re: Re:

None of us, neither the riders or DS's or owners, really know how their doping program works. The docs have some idea, but even for them it is just more educated guesswork.

It is incredibly complex, and for sure not something to find out browsing pubmed and wikipedia.

Maybe a little of topic, but it is crazy to me the way doping science has evolved, and knowledge acquired, purely by backroom trial and error. It is typical, that athletes and coaches will learn what works faster than any research institute or publication. Always has been; athletes build the best habits by intuition, that are only later explained by science. (And one reason why Sky's marginal-gain-science-guruism is so infuriating. Sport has never never been led by theory and science, only by experience. But that's an even bigger digression...)

IC, OOC, all just part of the trial and error.[/quote]

While i agree that the pharmacology is very complex and that many individuals will have varying reactions to these drugs the idea that this is all pure trial and error is not strictly true.

Any drug you care to name that is in use in the Human Sporting world has been used and probably is still being used in animal sporting endeavours prior to it's appearance in the human sporting world.

EPO for example was being used in horse and greyhound racing for many years before it appeared in human racing and if you do enough digging you can generally find some sports managers or coaches and some vets who have transferred from one sphere to another. and brought their knowledge of what they do and what works from the animal kingdom with them and into their new charges (human athletes)

While we are not entirely the same the blood, oxygen and energy production processes involved in the bodies are very similar as is the way muscles grow in humans and many animals. So steroids and other drugs used illegally in racing horses, greyhounds and even camels are then used in the same or similar ways in humans.

As with every drug we create it is nearly always tested on the animals first before humans get their hands on them.

 

[frenchfry]

Re: Re:

No info in the linked "article" indicating this is new, except the date. Why would they retest samples from 2013 and not 2014? It's probably some lejdd.fr article from 2014 they've been reading, like this one: http://www.lejdd.fr/Sport/Dopage-la-molecule-Aicar-va-etre-detectee-672707

There has been an Aicar test for quite some time. No one has been reported caught for Aicar, so either the test is crap, no athletes are using Aicar (anymore (and there hasn't been any retesting)), there is a cover up of Aicar positives, they aren't testing for Aicar, they are only requesting Aicar analysis for samples from archers, curling players and/or rally car drivers, or a mix of two or more of the before mentioned hypotesis'.

That would be CURLERS. Sheesh, curling gets no respect even from the clinic.

I respect them, my problem is with the English language. Well, I did respect them, but then some of them decided to go to the golf store to shop for pants.

I hope you realised I was kidding. And you have a very good point about the pants - disgraceful!

 

[neineinei]

Re: Re:

No info in the linked "article" indicating this is new, except the date. Why would they retest samples from 2013 and not 2014? It's probably some lejdd.fr article from 2014 they've been reading, like this one: http://www.lejdd.fr/Sport/Dopage-la-molecule-Aicar-va-etre-detectee-672707

There has been an Aicar test for quite some time. No one has been reported caught for Aicar, so either the test is crap, no athletes are using Aicar (anymore (and there hasn't been any retesting)), there is a cover up of Aicar positives, they aren't testing for Aicar, they are only requesting Aicar analysis for samples from archers, curling players and/or rally car drivers, or a mix of two or more of the before mentioned hypotesis'.

That would be CURLERS. Sheesh, curling gets no respect even from the clinic.

I respect them, my problem is with the English language. Well, I did respect them, but then some of them decided to go to the golf store to shop for pants.

I hope you realised I was kidding. And you have a very good point about the pants - disgraceful!

ja ja, no worries, the fancy pantsy curling players are from my neck of the woods.

 

[HiroAntagonist]

Good post Strides, but another aspect of the pharmacology is the domino effect that's ensues trying to balance everything especially when GH and insulin get involved. I love cycling but feel bad for those riders guinea pigging themselves when next new drug appears.