Nibali at the same level as Froome/Contador?

[whittashau]

It certainly helps Nibali, but I'm not sure it should be factored in to determine the best stage racer. This is all purely theoretical, while luck also plays a big part in avoiding crashes. How do we determine if a rider stays upright because of bike handling skills, or purely because of a reflex or luck.

Why not? Luck plays a part in every element of cycling, but the consistency that Nibali has avoided crashes, and being in the right place and the right time shows that it isn't luck.

 

[gunara]

Nice to see Contador's and Froome's fans find a common enemy, more love between the two camps now

For the comparisons, I don't know, probably because I only began to have opportunities to watch GT live since the start of 'his era', I have hard time putting anyone equal to Contador's level as GC rider, to me he's still up there on his own, until someone beat him repeatedly in a GT, one bad season haven't changed it for me.
As for Nibali vs. Froome, based on the last two years, Froome is ahead of everyone. However, Nibali has been at about his current level for longer period of time and more GTs than Froome at his current level, and he's less an enigma than Froome. I need to assume that Froome will always be 2013 strong to confidently put him above Nibali, and probably equal to or surpass Contador.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Why not? Luck plays a part in every element of cycling, but the consistency that Nibali has avoided crashes, and being in the right place and the right time shows that it isn't luck.

The thing is, if someone crashes, are they just unlucky or do they have a lack of bike handling skills?

 

[rhubroma]

Did you even understand what I wrote?
End up with a better palmares.

I stand by my view Nibali is a more complete rider. Not just cobbles. Very good at almost all disciplines in all conditions. Complete.

And I stand by my view that you don't know what you are talking about.

Your assessment of Nibili also has a luck factor into it as well. In the 2010 Giro the Italian crashed badly and lost the pink jersey, whereas it happened to Contador in this tour. More complete? How? A better climber? A better TTist? Come on, you can't be serious.

I'm of the thinking that Contador simply was incredibly unfortunate in reaching in his back pocket at the moment he hit something in the road, which caused him to go down hard on the descent. This has nothing to do with bad bike handling, but pure fluke. It could have happened to Nibali or anyone else for that matter.

As far as the rest goes, I think Nibali is a very good rider, but Contador is better. He's been up and down since the clen insident besides, while Nibali has never had to go through something like that.

Nibali's career has been without a hitch and gradually built up, step by step, to where he is today. Yet where he is now, in this Tour, in terms of being so dominant, is only because both Contador and Froome were forced to abandon. With those two in and with the form they had, he's not so dominant. Period. His rivals are weak. In fact this is the weakest group of top contenders since Sastre won.

In my opinion Contador would have dropped him in the mountains with it.

 

[whittashau]

Nibali crashed in 2010 on a dirt road in the rain and it was Basso's fault.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

The thing is, if someone crashes, are they just unlucky or do they have a lack of bike handling skills?

Frank Schleck is NOT a good bike handler

 

[Alcanelo]

The only way he can prove if he's on their level if he battles it out with them in a GT...unfortunately AC and CF had freak accidents... Nibali has never beaten AC at a GT as far as I'm aware

 

[Netserk]

I think it's a little more nuanced than just 'Yes' or 'No'.

 

[cineteq]

Where is the "Above" option?

 

[arvc40]

Contador and Froome are different Gravy !.

 

[rhubroma]

The only way he can prove if he's on their level if he battles it out with them in a GT...unfortunately AC and CF had freak accidents... Nibali has never beaten AC at a GT as far as I'm aware

This is what's important, as I've also pointed out.

We can't say Nibali is at their level, because they aren't here for the known reasons. Whereas in previous grand tours when Nibali has squared off with them, he lost. Alberto in 2011 Giro and Froome in 2012 Tour.

True, Nibali made a big leap from the Dauphine to the Tour. But he's not been up against an in form Contador and Froome here.

 

[cineteq]

Agreed. Not at the same level, but very close.

For me:

Climbing - Froome = Contador > Nibali
TT - Froome > Contador = Nibali
Descending - Nibali > Contador > Froome
Tactics - Contador = Nibali > Froome

Climbing (x4):
Froome 9
Contador 9
Nibali 8

TT (x2)
Froome 9
Contador 7.5
Nibali 7.5

Descending (x1)
Froome 7
Contador 8
Nibali 9

Overall:
Froome 8.375
Contador 8.375
Nibali 8

Nibali was better on the cobbles this year, as expected, but then again that type of stage rarely features in a stage race.

Do your math properly

Descending (x1)
Froome 5
Contador 7
Nibali 10

You forgot =>

Not Crashing
Froome 5
Contador 8
Nibali 9

Please add them up and give us the real result

 

[LaFlorecita]

This is what's important, as I've also pointed out.

We can't say Nibali is at their level, because they aren't here for the known reasons. Whereas in previous grand tours when Nibali has squared off with them, he lost. Alberto in 2011 Giro and Froome in 2012 Tour.

True, Nibali made a big leap from the Dauphine to the Tour. But he's not been up against an in form Contador and Froome here.

Good post. Nibali hasn't shown he's on Froome's or Contador's level in a GT yet. Until he does that, he's a bit below them

 

[Cookster15]

Agree with the OP. I am sure it would have been a 3 way fight if AC and Froome were still in the race.

I like Nibali. He is both classy and humble. He treats his rivals with respect - even if he is obviously far superior. Plus he does most of his talking on the road.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Do your math properly

Descending (x1)
Froome 5
Contador 7
Nibali 10

You forgot =>

Not Crashing
Froome 5
Contador 8
Nibali 9

Please add them up and give us the real result

I'm sorry, I think my assessment is pretty accurate.

 

[armchairclimber]

I would reserve judgement until the finish of this race. If he continues as he is, without mis-haps and delivers a good TT, then I would put him above Froome (on the strength of a better palmares) and approaching par with Contador (as he is now, not as he was pre-ban).

 

[arvc40]

I think Contador puts Nibali in Red everyday and he falls to pieces.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Agreed. Not at the same level, but very close.

For me:

Climbing - Froome = Contador > Nibali
TT - Froome > Contador = Nibali
Descending - Nibali > Contador > Froome
Tactics - Contador = Nibali > Froome

Climbing (x4):
Froome 9
Contador 9
Nibali 8

TT (x2)
Froome 9
Contador 7.5
Nibali 7.5

Descending (x1)
Froome 7
Contador 8
Nibali 9

Tactics (x1)
Froome 6
Contador 8
Nibali 8

Overall:
Froome 8.375
Contador 8.375
Nibali 8

Bike handling skill
Froome 3
Contador 4
Nibali 9

 

[Pricey_sky]

Agreed. Not at the same level, but very close.

For me:

Climbing - Froome = Contador > Nibali
TT - Froome > Contador = Nibali
Descending - Nibali > Contador > Froome
Tactics - Contador = Nibali > Froome

Climbing (x4):
Froome 9
Contador 9
Nibali 8

TT (x2)
Froome 9
Contador 7.5
Nibali 7.5

Descending (x1)
Froome 7
Contador 8
Nibali 9

Tactics (x1)
Froome 6
Contador 8
Nibali 8

Overall:
Froome 8.375
Contador 8.375
Nibali 8

Nibali was better on the cobbles this year, as expected, but then again that type of stage rarely features in a stage race.

All three are top notch GC racers. Together with Quintana they're way ahead of the rest.

Pretty much agree with this. I have a feeling on the long climbs that Contador and Froome would eventually crack Nibali. Nibali was amazing on the cobbles but those feature very rarely. Froome also has the big advantage of being the superior TT'er.

I hope they all get to the Tour next year in great shape along with Quintana and nobody crashes out.

 

[cineteq]

I'm sorry, I think my assessment is pretty accurate.

I beg to differ. Ok I'll do it, with my new and improved formula.

Climbing
Froome 9
Contador 9
Nibali 8

TT
Froome 9
Contador 7.5
Nibali 7.5

Descending
Froome 5
Contador 7
Nibali 10

Not Crashing
Froome 5
Contador 8
Nibali 9

Overall:
Froome 7.00
Contador 7.88
Nibali 8.38

 

[Cookster15]

I think Contador puts Nibali in Red everyday and he falls to pieces.

In which GT did that happen since the 2011 Giro? Nibali is stronger and better since then. Contador is not as good as then. 3 years is a long time.

 

[Jspear]

I beg to differ. Ok I'll do it, with my new and improved formula.

Climbing
Froome 9
Contador 9
Nibali 8

TT
Froome 9
Contador 7.5
Nibali 7.5

Descending
Froome 5
Contador 7
Nibali 10

Not Crashing
Froome 5
Contador 8
Nibali 9

Overall:
Froome 7.00
Contador 7.88
Nibali 8.38

Your descending number are a bit skewed.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Pretty much agree with this. I have a feeling on that long climbs that Contador and Froome would eventually crack Nibali. Nibali was amazing on the cobles but those feature very rarely. Froome also has the bid advantage of being the superior TT'er.

I hope they all get to the Tour next year in great shape along with Quintana and nobody crashes out.

Thanks, good to hear you agree

 

[Jspear]

In which GT did that happen since the 2011 Giro? Nibali is stronger and better since then. Contador is not as good as then. 3 years is a long time.

In what GT have they competed in against each other lately (besides this Tour)? Can we even compare them against each other if we are only talking about GT's? Don't think so. Have you been watching the whole racing season this year? AC is as good as he was in 2011.

 

[LaFlorecita]

In which GT did that happen since the 2011 Giro? Nibali is stronger and better since then. Contador is not as good as then. 3 years is a long time.

They haven't ridden a GT together since the 2011 Giro, so we can't be sure. I wouldn't say Contador isn't as good as in 2011, he showed great form all year this year.