Nice interview from Matt Cooke, about racing clean vs Zabriskie, Levi, ...

[sniper]

Good to see RR retweet the interview. I wonder what he thinks about the implicit criticism directed at Tygart/USADA.

meanwhile JV on twitter too busy celebrating himself.

I do think though it's PR counseling time at Garmin thanks to the interview.
Ignoring the interview doesn't strike me as a good option.
I see some emails going back and forth between prentice and jv.
how to take this 'head on'?
JV to make a surprise reappearance in the Clinic?

 

[sniper]

...the implicit criticism directed at Tygart/USADA...

DeCanio in the comments section is more explicit.

USADA fighting to clean up pro cycling. That’s a ****ing joke. Travis Tygart was on the legal team vs. Dr. Wade Exum who has made it clear to me that Tammy Thomas and Lance Armstrong and others were allowed to use PEDs by USAC, and the USOC. Isn’t it time we start asking for an investigation into USADA? Isn’t it time we start to point the fingers at the real kings of corruption.

 

[Archibald]

DeCanio in the comments section is more explicit.

USADA fighting to clean up pro cycling. That’s a ****ing joke. Travis Tygart was on the legal team vs. Dr. Wade Exum who has made it clear to me that Tammy Thomas and Lance Armstrong and others were allowed to use PEDs by USAC, and the USOC. Isn’t it time we start asking for an investigation into USADA? Isn’t it time we start to point the fingers at the real kings of corruption.

am I missing something here?
He labels two organisations that allow PED use of athletes, then claims that a different organisation should be investigated for corruption...
pardon???

 

[sniper]

am I missing something here?
He labels two organisations that allow PED use of athletes, then claims that a different organisation should be investigated for corruption...
pardon???

bit of a stretch, i agree. though he might have a point.
he seems to be suggesting USADA is corrupt for not investigating USAC/USOC inspite of Tygart having first hand knowledge of their corruption.
so basically all three are corrupt.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I think he explains it himself.


Then this:

How many riders have been part of the "pro" peloton over the past 15 years? 1500? The number of people ranting is incredible small.

With the recent events (LA affair) and some of the dopers speaking out (Hamilton, Jaksche etc) and with people like Cooke offering his account in a great interview, nobody else feels inspired?

Astounding imo.

 

[sniper]

wrong or right, i dunno,
but what Cooke is explicitly suggesting in the interview is that you cannot even ride a GT without doping, let alone podium one.

 

[pmcg76]

Funny but I heard at one point that Cooke was on the Papp list and was likely doping to make it to the big league.

Maybe it was sour grapes or just rumours/innuendo. Perhaps it shows how the grapevine might not always be accurate/correct either. Who knows.

Just thought it funny when the interview popped up, I immediately thought about the Papp list.

 

[sniper]

How many riders have been part of the "pro" peloton over the past 15 years? 1500? The number of people ranting is incredible small.

With the recent events (LA affair) and some of the dopers speaking out (Hamilton, Jaksche etc) and with people like Cooke offering his account in a great interview, nobody else feels inspired?

Astounding imo.

well, a guy like DiLuca seemed willing to talk.
But along came Tom Danielson to shut him up.

Imo, Garmin embodies the new (i.e. post-Lance) omerta.

 

[sniper]

Funny but I heard at one point that Cooke was on the Papp list and was likely doping to make it to the big league.

Maybe it was sour grapes or just rumours/innuendo. Perhaps it shows how the grapevine might not always be accurate/correct either. Who knows.

Just thought it funny when the interview popped up, I immediately thought about the Papp list.

I'll assume that's a false rumor.
Not that it would surprise me to find out Cooke is lying through his teeth.
But it wouldn't be very clever, because Papp handed that list to USADA, so I mean if Cooke was on it, it will probably come to light either through Papp or USADA or through someone else who read that interview and is now thinking "you lying sack of ****".

btw, here's one of Papp's last posts on here:

USADA is aware of the identities of all of the clients and they have whatever evidence implicating them that was available. The statute of limitations on those cases doesn't run out until 2015, I think, so USADA can circle-back and start picking-off those more-difficult-to-prove violations (based on the relative evidence in comparison to the first batch of low-hanging fruit) when/if they have the time/resources (which are unfortunately limited, hence why Australian professional cyclist Hilton Clarke hasn't yet faced a formal allegation of anti-doping violation for buying 1000s of dollars worth of EPO and other products from the Chinese, and trying to buy others).

The one thing that surprises me is that no doping doctors in the US who we implicated have faced any public dressing-down yet...

btw: the Larry Bowers affidavit might as well be a transcript from the meeting he, Daniel Eichner and I had @ USADA a few years ago, and is pretty much a guide to the basics of doping for cycling.

that boldfaced bit is interesting. USADA again not looking good.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

well, a guy like DiLuca seemed willing to talk.
But along came Tom Danielson to shut him up.

Imo, Garmin embodies the new (i.e. post-Lance) omerta.

Assuming some clean riders in the peloton, some close to retirement, others fringe players making little money, many cheated out of significant pay by the dopers, the number of people stepping forward is minuscule.

Di Luca belongs to the group that made money from doping.

Cooke seems to belong to the group that was robbed by not doping. Where are the rest belonging to this group? Ar they all afraid? Too friendly with the doped colleagues? Too much herd mentality in cycling?

I would be furious (as a clean rider in the period), particular with recent publications of the extend of doping and corruption in the sport.

Putting aside the "I can win clean now" generation, what about the other Cookes? DeCanio and thats it?

Anyway I hope Cooke lands himself a good job.

 

[pmcg76]

I'll assume that's a false rumor.
Not that it would surprise me to find out Cooke is lying through his teeth.
But it wouldn't be very clever, because Papp handed that list to USADA, so I mean if Cooke was on it, it will probably come to light either through Papp or USADA or through someone else who read that interview and is now thinking "you lying sack of ****".

btw, here's one of Papp's last posts on here:
that boldfaced bit is interesting. USADA again not looking good.

Yes, I would like to have a chat with the people I heard that from because they seemed quite sure on it and it was a long, long time before this interview and before any of you lot would even have had a clue who Matt Cooke is.

 

[sniper]

Assuming some clean riders in the peloton, some close to retirement, others fringe players making little money, many cheated out of significant pay by the dopers, the number of people stepping forward is minuscule.

Di Luca belongs to the group that made money from doping.

Cooke seems to belong to the group that was robbed by not doping. Where are the rest belonging to this group? Ar they all afraid? Too friendly with the doped colleagues? Too much herd mentality in cycling?

I would be furious (as a clean rider in the period), particular with recent publications of the extend of doping and corruption in the sport.

Putting aside the "I can win clean now" generation, what about the other Cookes? DeCanio and thats it?

Anyway I hope Cooke lands himself a good job.

fair points.

many clean riders probably don't ever even think about "what if".
perhaps you were yourself once a decent amateur racer?
do you ever think "what if"?

 

[sniper]

Yes, I would like to have a chat with the people I heard that from because they seemed quite sure on it and it was a long, long time before this interview and before any of you lot would even have had a clue who Matt Cooke is.

would def. be interesting to hear more.
wouldn't surprise me to hear he's on it.
while I agree with the sentiments he expresses in the interview, some parts don't sound all that convincing.

 

[Netserk]

Fine interview if you are more against dopers than you are against doping. Not my cup of tea though.

 

[sniper]

Fine interview if you are more against dopers than you are against doping. Not my cup of tea though.

care to explain?
his sentiment is that he got robbed, and that the guys who robbed him didn't get any sort of punishment.
he's pointing out that doping pays off.
guys now earning six figure salaries over the backs of clean guys.
isn't that fair sentiment?

edit: i agree that singling out individuals like Leipheimer and Danielson isn't helping his cause.

 

[pmcg76]

care to explain?
his sentiment is that he got robbed, and that the guys who robbed him didn't get any sort of punishment.
he's pointing out that doping pays off.
guys now earning six figure salaries over the backs of clean guys.
isn't that fair sentiment?

edit: i agree that singling out individuals like Leipheimer and Danielson isn't helping his cause.

Thing is, did Cooke get robbed? Maybe you can say sey he got beat at races like Cali, Utah, Colorado etc by Levi, Dave Z, Tommy D but there were a lot of lower level US races in which Cooke was still getting beat by a host of other guys without those evil dopers present.

Can you claim you were getting robbed if you were not even capable of beating the guys at your own level. To listen to Cooke you would think he was some huge talent who was denied a shot at the big time, but there were any number of US domestic pros who were as good or better than him and it's only in the last few seasons that his results have improved when he was already in his 30s.

Its a bit like a guy who has limited results at French Cup level saying he was robbed by the likes of Contador, Valverde etc. Erm no, you just didn't have the talent.

 

[Benotti69]

Why not single out Leipheimer, CVdV, Hincapie and others who made small fortunes based on doping?

Why are these guys who admitted to doping getting granfondos and rubbing clean riders faces in it without the slightest bit of contriteness?

 

[Puckfiend]

I'm waiting as well...

I guess they are too busy riding the Gran Fraudos with their heroes.

 

[Benotti69]

Thing is, did Cooke get robbed? Maybe you can say sey he got beat at races like Cali, Utah, Colorado etc by Levi, Dave Z, Tommy D but there were a lot of lower level US races in which Cooke was still getting beat by a host of other guys without those evil dopers present.

Can you claim you were getting robbed if you were not even capable of beating the guys at your own level. To listen to Cooke you would think he was some huge talent who was denied a shot at the big time, but there were any number of US domestic pros who were as good or better than him and it's only in the last few seasons that his results have improved when he was already in his 30s.

Its a bit like a guy who has limited results at French Cup level saying he was robbed by the likes of Contador, Valverde etc. Erm no, you just didn't have the talent.

Cooke has said a lot of USA based riders were doping, hence he was getting beaten by USA based riders.

It is galling to Cooke to see guys who admitted they doped walk away with all the money and acclaim they made due to their cheating.

 

[pmcg76]

Cooke has said a lot of USA based riders were doping, hence he was getting beaten by USA based riders.

It is galling to Cooke to see guys who admitted they doped walk away with all the money and acclaim they made due to their cheating.

No he doesn't say a lot of US based riders were doping. He says quite a few of the Navigators(2007) guys were doping which is no surprise to anyone who followed the US scene at all, and they continued to dope at other teams but some of them are known like Zajicek, Clarke, O'Neill etc.

In fact he says it is possible to win in the US without doping which has been the case for a while. Cookes results started to improve around 2011 when he was already in his 30s, but before that he had very little results of note even in the less well known US races.

If some of the local level talent were doping to beat him, those are the people he should be hammering on. Easy to appear anti-doping by hitting on those who have been already exposed. All I read was Levi, Dave Z, George etc.

He doesn't have to like or respect any of those guys as is his wont but they hardly robbed him of a Euro career or anything which is what is being put forward here. If you are not putting out results in US domestic races until into your 30s, then really there is not going to be too many Euro teams knocking down your door with a contract.

 

[Benotti69]

No he doesn't say a lot of US based riders were doping. He says quite a few of the Navigators(2007) guys were doping which is no surprise to anyone who followed the US scene at all, and they continued to dope at other teams but some of them are known like Zajicek, Clarke, O'Neill etc.

" I knew I was getting beaten by cheaters but I never knew the extent of what they did and how big the advantages they gained were. I was teammates with guys who heavily used EPO for years but I didn’t find out until years after the fact."

In fact he says it is possible to win in the US without doping which has been the case for a while. Cookes results started to improve around 2011 when he was already in his 30s, but before that he had very little results of note even in the less well known US races.

"Over time I realized that my early years in the sport were partly shaped by guys who cheated and that is a big reason I am so angry. I am not blaming them for the entirety of my career, but there were important things that were changed by them."

If some of the local level talent were doping to beat him, those are the people he should be hammering on. Easy to appear anti-doping by hitting on those who have been already exposed. All I read was Levi, Dave Z, George etc.

So leave the big boys alone who lots look up to? Nah hammer the big fish, always.

He doesn't have to like or respect any of those guys as is his wont but they hardly robbed him of a Euro career or anything which is what is being put forward here. If you are not putting out results in US domestic races until into your 30s, then really there is not going to be too many Euro teams knocking down your door with a contract.

Levi was caught doping in '96 in USA so to say those guys in EU didn't rob him is BS. All these USA euro pros started in the US. He also has a go at Carmichael which is where George got introduced to doping.

 

[pmcg76]

" I knew I was getting beaten by cheaters but I never knew the extent of what they did and how big the advantages they gained were. I was teammates with guys who heavily used EPO for years but I didn’t find out until years after the fact."

As I said, Navigators were his team and they had guys who were later busted. This is common knowledge.


"Over time I realized that my early years in the sport were partly shaped by guys who cheated and that is a big reason I am so angry. I am not blaming them for the entirety of my career, but there were important things that were changed by them."

Still doesn't translate as doping was widespread in the US but put in the context of the interview, he is talking about the big fish again.

So leave the big boys alone who lots look up to? Nah hammer the big fish, always.

Nothing to do with leaving big fish alone, it just comes across as another of those "I could have made it only for the dopers" whine when the reality is, the guy most likely didn't have that level of talent to start with.


Levi was caught doping in '96 in USA so to say those guys in EU didn't rob him is BS. All these USA euro pros started in the US. He also has a go at Carmichael which is where George got introduced to doping.

Most of those guys showed up early in the US scene, long before Cooke even turned pro and that didn't happen until he was 27 in 2007. Most of the guys mentioned were in Europe since early 00s or before. Most of those guys were not racing in events like the Mt.Hood Classic, Joe Martin Stage race or Nature Valley GP etc so how did they rob him of results in those races?

If a rider isn't capable of producing results in those events, how would they even stand a chance of getting a Euro contract. Cooke rode for teams like Mountain Khakkis, Exergy who were bottom of the barrel even by US standards. If he were the talent he thinks he is, he would have secured contracts with the top US domestic teams long ago.

Whats is funny is the fact that most of the clinic regulars didn't have a clue who Matt Cooke is until that interview appeared. Now he is some anti-doping hero even though nobody knows anything about him.

What is the normal reason in the clinic for riders who start producing results in their 30s?

 

[sniper]

So leave the big boys alone who lots look up to? Nah hammer the big fish, always.

I'm gonna have to agree with you here.
I'm glad also he mentions Ryder.

 

[Netserk]

I'm gonna have to agree with you here.
I'm glad also he mentions Ryder.

And what would've happened if those riders hadn't doped? Some different dopers would've taken their place...

Doping is a structural problem in cycling, it's not about some bad apples, but one hell of a lousy environment.

If anything the riders (dopers) are the victims of this environment (too), not the bad guys. It's the same as the drug problems in our society. You don't change things by locking up the addicts in prison, you help them out of their addiction, go after the enablers and profiteers, recognize and try to change the environment that leads these young men (and women) into drug use.

Of course some dopers become enablers and pushers as well, and they certainly are bad guys, but I still think the main solution is to be against doping, not dopers. A T&R process would help a lot, but unfortunately I don't see that (truly) happening.

One thing that certainly doesn't help is cycling denying its problem and scapegoating a few riders.

 

[sniper]

And what would've happened if those riders hadn't doped? Some different dopers would've taken their place...

Doping is a structural problem in cycling, it's not about some bad apples, but one hell of a lousy environment.

If anything the riders (dopers) are the victims of this environment (too), not the bad guys. It's the same as the drug problems in our society. You don't change things by locking up the addicts in prison, you help them out of their addiction, go after the enablers and profiteers, recognize and try to change the environment that leads these young men (and women) into drug use.

Of course some dopers become enablers and pushers as well, and they certainly are bad guys, but I still think the main solution is to be against doping, not dopers. A T&R process would help a lot, but unfortunately I don't see that (truly) happening.

One thing that certainly doesn't help is cycling denying its problem and scapegoating a few riders.

fair points.
but Cooke isn't denying any of this I think.

as for your last sentence: imo they (Ryder et al.) are anything except scapegoats. They are still living the dream. six-figure salaries over the backs of clean riders. I'd hardly consider this one Cooke interview to be evidence of them being 'scapegoated'. And I don't think they;ll loose much sleep over it either.
Good thing, I think, that Cooke has the balls to call out those that he (for good reasons) considers to be the most hypocrit of the bunch.