Nicole Cooke attacks drug cheats in the womens peloton

[Benotti69]

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Facts are very, very thin on the ground in this place, yet conclusions are drawn from the flimsiest of evidence.

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I have not seen any conclusions drawn in this thread. Lots of discussion about Cooke who won in a time when doping was/is the norm.

Cooke made a great statement but some of us have questions about her. I made that plain and simple. I never made any conclusion as to whether she doped or not.

I dont believe any of the riders who come out and pick on the easy targets but leave out the DS, Doctors and Sponsors.

Cooke has not one said anything in her statement that is not disimmilar to Armstrong statements from when he won the tour.

EG. Cooke says she wont take a dispirin for a headache. Armstrong said he wouldn't take anything after having Cancer.

So stop with the fundmental defense of all the Brits. You are coming across as a TeamGB troll.

 

[JimmyFingers]

So stop with the fundmental defense of all the Brits. You are coming across as a TeamGB troll.

Being called a troll by you is like an Essex girl telling someone they look slutty

As for conclusions:

I hope I am wrong, but in cycling working with a dodgy Doctor only means 1 thing.

Said by you, first page of thread. Sorry, is that not a conclusion? If not you must have a different dictionary to me

 

[xcleigh]

I have not seen any conclusions drawn in this thread. Lots of discussion about Cooke who won in a time when doping was/is the norm.

Cooke made a great statement but some of us have questions about her. I made that plain and simple. I never made any conclusion as to whether she doped or not.

I dont believe any of the riders who come out and pick on the easy targets but leave out the DS, Doctors and Sponsors.

Cooke has not one said anything in her statement that is not disimmilar to Armstrong statements from when he won the tour.

EG. Cooke says she wont take a dispirin for a headache. Armstrong said he wouldn't take anything after having Cancer.

So stop with the fundmental defense of all the Brits. You are coming across as a TeamGB troll.

So you don't believe Cooke is telling the truth or you don't believe that she's clean?

I just find it odd that she'd draw such attention to herself and open herself to accusations of doping by making such a statement when there would seem no fundamental reason for her to do so. Not normal.

 

[Franklin]

Still very tennuous connections to consider him a doping Doctor. A question mark, nothing more.

I know, it's absolutely not unethical if your doctor colleague is wellknown to be involved with dangerous (botched) blood transfusions. It's just a question mark, no more.

You seem very knowledgeable in what motivates me. Point out where I consider 'criticism' as a personal attack on the riders please.

The sky thread is there for all to read

Acknowledge working with him when pressed by journalists and caught out by eye-witness accounts, or volunteering the information freely, when not asked about it and there is no pressing need to talk about? This is her retirement statement, there are no accusations of doping to be answered. There is absolutely no need for her to say what she said. She is not being quizzed, she has nothing to defend. She was talking through the experiences she had throughout her career.

Jimmy, the Bartalucci connection popped up in 2008.

And I'm a bit puzzled what about this "retirement, so no need to be accountable". She does a big accusation Jimmy. Maybe those she accuses have innocent connections with dodgy people?

Facts are very, very thin on the ground in this place, yet conclusions are drawn from the flimsiest of evidence. In the context she said it I am prepared to take what she said at face value. You are not, yet you claim it is based on facts while mine is gut instinct. I'd say both are gut instinct personally, and of course we are each entitled to our opinions.

Thank you for leaving the sarcasm behind.

Let me try to explain facts and faith again, as this is what also escaped you in other threads.

Fact:

Nicole was involved with a doctor where we have questionmarks about. These questionmarks are past involvement in a criminal case and close association with dubious colleagues.

Faith:

Nicole tells the truth in her statement.


There is no fact she is dirty, or that her doctor is dirty (Though we certainly can question his ethics!).

 

[Benotti69]

Being called a troll by you is like an Essex girl telling someone they look slutty

'coming across' is different from called.

Said by you, first page of thread. Sorry, is that not a conclusion? If not you must have a different dictionary to me

I did precluse it with " I hope I am wrong ". Its is a forum for discussion.

 

[Franklin]

So you don't believe Cooke is telling the truth or you don't believe that she's clean?

I just find it odd that she'd draw such attention to herself and open herself to accusations of doping by making such a statement when there would seem no fundamental reason for her to do so. Not normal.

I don't agree she opened herself up to accusations of doping. At worst she did that by consulting Bartalucci in 2008.

The problem is not as much if she is dirty or not. The problem is that she can accuse others while she herself was involved with a doctor with at best questionable ethics. Now unless she is going to point out facts (connections with doctors/soigneurs/trainers etc.) it's empty and imho indeed almost hypocritical (almost because i give her the benefit of the doubt and score this one as emotional outburst).

 

[JimmyFingers]

And I'm a bit puzzled what about this "retirement, so no need to be accountable". She does a big accusation Jimmy. Maybe those she accuses have innocent connections with dodgy people?

Lance and Hamilton?

There is no fact she is dirty, or that her doctor is dirty (Though we certainly can question his ethics!).

And here we have the nub of the issue, don't we? I have already said this, and you have quoted it:

Yes have suspicions about an athlete, it is your perogative and even duty

And yet you seem to be taking me to task because I am denying you your suspicions, based on your 'facts', which I never have. As I have illustated, Benotti did draw a conclusion from her association with Bartalucci, you are stopping short of that position but stating there has to be suspicions, I am saying fair enough you are suspicious but I am not convinced the Doctor is dodgy and confident she raced clean. I'm not quite sure where all the disagreement is coming from.

 

[Benotti69]

So you don't believe Cooke is telling the truth or you don't believe that she's clean?

I just find it odd that she'd draw such attention to herself and open herself to accusations of doping by making such a statement when there would seem no fundamental reason for her to do so. Not normal.

Plenty of athletes have done this. Most famous Carl Lewis.

I think Cooke made the statement for her own personal reasons. She was attacking the sport and others in it not just Armstrong and Jeanson. I applaud her for that. But why not Longo and others. But was she clean, I dont know. She worked wth someone who has question marks about them. She won a lot in a time when doping was rampant in the sport amongst the men. Jeanson and Longo have shown that some of women were no cleaner.

che crede normale?

 

[JimmyFingers]

I did precluse it with " I hope I am wrong ". Its is a forum for discussion.

Yes you did qualify it that way, but you drew a conclusion still, more so saying it could mean one thing only, meaning it is an inescapable conclusion.

So basically you said I hope she's clean, but I know she's not. There's no wriggle room there.

 

[Benotti69]

Yes you did qualify it that way, but you drew a conclusion still, more so saying it could mean one thing only, meaning it is an inescapable conclusion.

So basically you said I hope she's clean, but I know she's not. There's no wriggle room there.

I still hope she was clean but all the 'dots' points, in my humble non essex girl opinion, that working with certain people and riding where she did meant it was not clean.

It always amazes me how posters forget this sport is so dirty and the tip of the iceberg is only revelaled, ie mostly riders and it was when the Festina scandal revealed the extent of size of the iceberg most people quickly buried their heads.

So many of the people who were around in the epo era are still around.

 

[Franklin]

Lance and Hamilton?

You missed her blanket accusation of her colleagues. She casts a cloud on every rider on her teams.

And this would be forgivable had she stated: "Yesterday I sent the names of these coaches to the Union. As a rider I was scared for my career and didn't dare to do the right thing, but now that they don;t have any hold on me I will help clean the sport".

Instead we see a statement where she slams Lance,Tyler, her colleagues and praises her family and her own performance.

It's not my cup of tea.

And yet you seem to be taking me to task because I am denying you your suspicions, based on your 'facts', which I never have. As I have illustated, Benotti did draw a conclusion from her association with Bartalucci, you are stopping short of that position but stating there has to be suspicions, I am saying fair enough you are suspicious but I am not convinced the Doctor is dodgy and confident she raced clean. I'm not quite sure where all the disagreement is coming from.

For this discussion trustworthiness is a paramount factor, especially since Nicole presents anecdote, not fact.

What makes you confident except faith?

Her trustworthiness is the only factor that makes her statement worthwhile as we have no way to verify the truth of her statements.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Cooke disliked

Why was Cooke so disliked in the women's peloton ? I remember her being ostracized..why was that ?

 

[JimmyFingers]

I still hope she was clean but all the 'dots' points, in my humble non essex girl opinion, that working with certain people and riding where she did meant it was not clean.

It always amazes me how posters forget this sport is so dirty and the tip of the iceberg is only revelaled, ie mostly riders and it was when the Festina scandal revealed the extent of size of the iceberg most people quickly buried their heads.

So many of the people who were around in the epo era are still around.

I'm not questioning your conclusion, or your motives for making it, just illustrating that a conclusion was made

 

[Franklin]

Why was Cooke so disliked in the women's peloton ? I remember her being ostracized..why was that ?

Though this is tinging on sexism, female sports has a long history of women not liking each other even on the same team. I think it's to common to link it to "dope/tattle-tale".

I remember the absolute hate between Monique Knol and Leontien van Moorsel at the OS even though as team mates they should have a common goal. I think part of the reason is that men's cycling is more business like. "I don't like you, but if I work for you I get paid".

Also, there is more money to go around, a country can easily field several top cyclists, whereas female athletes usually need to be the number one to make decent money. This causes probably more jealousy and anger.

But that's just my observation.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Why was Cooke so disliked in the women's peloton ? I remember her being ostracized..why was that ?

She was more or less ostracised by British Cycling for her outspoken comments over David Millar's return to the fold.
Didn't hold back then and has never held back on the subject of doping.
Always been staunchly critical.

However, she has been known to be less than diplomatic over certain racing scenarios.
One being the 3 against 1 trade team "gang up" during the UK championship, where she got worked over.
Perhaps she hasn't always as "free" with her initial praise of team mates as she could.

 

[Hawkwood]

You missed her blanket accusation of her colleagues. She casts a cloud on every rider on her teams.

And this would be forgivable had she stated: "Yesterday I sent the names of these coaches to the Union. As a rider I was scared for my career and didn't dare to do the right thing, but now that they don;t have any hold on me I will help clean the sport".

Instead we see a statement where she slams Lance,Tyler, her colleagues and praises her family and her own performance.

It's not my cup of tea.



For this discussion trustworthiness is a paramount factor, especially since Nicole presents anecdote, not fact.

What makes you confident except faith?

Her trustworthiness is the only factor that makes her statement worthwhile as we have no way to verify the truth of her statements.

I've just read her entire statement, not the bits that have appeared in the press. I can't find anywhere where she makes a `...blanket accusation of her colleagues.' Nor in her statement can I find anywhere where she `...casts a cloud on every rider on her teams.' Cooke does make the point that shorter distances in the women's sport might make winning clean easier (she mentions 3 hour races), and she suggests that men's sport might like to consider this.

So I'm not surprised someone has `...missed her blanket accusation of her colleagues' as she didn't do this!

Her whole statement is on her website.

 

[coinneach]

I've just read her entire statement, not the bits that have appeared in the press. I can't find anywhere where she makes a `...blanket accusation of her colleagues.' Nor in her statement can I find anywhere where she `...casts a cloud on every rider on her teams.' Cooke does make the point that shorter distances in the women's sport might make winning clean easier (she mentions 3 hour races), and she suggests that men's sport might like to consider this.

So I'm not surprised someone has `...missed her blanket accusation of her colleagues' as she didn't do this!

Her whole statement is on her website.

Similarly, Frankin twisted "the facts" by inferring she kept the dodgy doctor secret, when in fact all the time she has been open & fullsome in her praise for the work he did with her in rehabilitation.

He may have a point about questioning trusting belief in what people say, but then he kinda shoots himself in the foot by distorting / ignoring what people actually do say, making me distrustful of any opinions he subsequently voices.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I was puzzled by the blanket accusation. Unless he meant her refusing the medicines she was offered by her team, which suggests that others weren't being so principles. Even so it is an extremely veiled suggestion rather than 'blanket accusation' and certainly doesn't cast a cloud on everyone else.

The people she takes aim are LA, Hamilton and Jeanson, and is particularly scathing of the money they have made from the sport while doing it incredible damage. She cites the money Hamilton will make from his book and Jeanson from an upcoming film, and illustrates the different in earning between her and Jeanson when Jeanson won through cheating.

Her statement is unambiguous: cheats prosper in the sport and that cheating fundamentally denies honest athletes a profession and success, and also damages the sport, particularly the women's side, through loss of sponsorship and events.

 

[Hawkwood]

I was puzzled by the blanket accusation. Unless he meant her refusing the medicines she was offered by her team, which suggests that others weren't being so principles. Even so it is an extremely veiled suggestion rather than 'blanket accusation' and certainly doesn't cast a cloud on everyone else.

The people she takes aim are LA, Hamilton and Jeanson, and is particularly scathing of the money they have made from the sport while doing it incredible damage. She cites the money Hamilton will make from his book and Jeanson from an upcoming film, and illustrates the different in earning between her and Jeanson when Jeanson won through cheating.

Her statement is unambiguous: cheats prosper in the sport and that cheating fundamentally denies honest athletes a profession and success, and also damages the sport, particularly the women's side, through loss of sponsorship and events.

She says she needed to take four teams to court for her earnings. And that Hamilton will have made more from his book than she and a team-mate made in their careers. You can sort of see why she's so pi**ed off.

 

[JimmyFingers]

She says she needed to take four teams to court for her earnings. And that Hamilton will have made more from his book than she and a team-mate made in their careers. You can sort of see why she's so pi**ed off.

There's been a lot of noise in the British media since the Olympics about the lack of support for the women in the port, and the lack of professional teams. The British ladies have been queuing up to talk about it and there was even some groundswell of support for a women's Sky team, and you do have the nascent Wiggle team with Trott and Rowsell. I think Cooke summed up the state of the sport perfectly and raises plenty of issues that need to be addressed. I would benefit all to have a vibrant women's tour to match the mens. Frankly I might prefer to watch it

 

[Cycle Chic]

Doesnt Add UP

Sumet aint right here.

Nicole Cooke: I hated cycling, I was in pain, I wanted to quit

Just 11 months ago, injury almost forced her to give up. Today, the Welsh wonderwoman is the Olympic and world champion and has rewritten history

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ng-i-was-in-pain-i-wanted-to-quit-966040.html

I had a knee injury. I had an operation in September and in mid-November I started getting the pains again. I was thinking, 'Oh my god, I've had an operation to correct this and the problem's still there.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/15/olympics2008.olympicscycling

but then in March Fabio took on my coaching as well, and with his medical knowledge he was able to really help prescribe the training for my needs and my limits. And since then it's all been going well. It is a big turnaround.

 

[JimmyFingers]

All of that has already been brought up and discussed. I suggest you read the thread from the start

 

[coinneach]

Whats not right about that:
"Cooke revealed another key influence for the first time yesterday: an Italian coach named Fabio Bartolucci who works with the French professional men's trade team Bouygues Télécom, a squad with a reputation for riding clean"

Doesn't sound to me like someone with something to hide: what is your point?

 

[Cycle Chic]

All of that has already been brought up and discussed. I suggest you read the thread from the start

I suggest you get a life..some of us cant read every bloody post of every thread.

Point being - Cooke is about to retire due to injury then sees Dr Skylucci and then gets medals.

 

[coinneach]

I suggest you get a life..some of us cant read every bloody post of every thread.

Point being - Cooke is about to retire due to injury then sees Dr Skylucci and then gets medals.

What, a doctor making someone better? Is that is their job description?