No Giro/Tour "Double" this Decade:(

[Polish]

No Giro/TdF "Double" winner this Decade
That has not happened since the 1930's...

Probably 2 reasons:
1) Lance focusing on the TdF
2) Ivan not being allowed to ride the 2006 TdF (He kicked major keester in the Giro that year)

Hopefully the coming decade wil see a return of the "Double" winner


Marco Pantani one time, in 1998
Miguel Indurain two times, in 1992, 1993
Stephen Roche one time, in 1987
Bernard Hinault two times, in 1982, 1985
Eddy Merckx three times, in 1970, 1972, 1974
Jacques Anquetil one time, in 1964
Fausto Coppi two times, in 1949, 1952


PS...this thread is "Clinic" material correct?

 

[Cerberus]

PS...this thread is "Clinic" material correct?

Not really, the closest thing you come to talking about doping is Basso's 2006 Tour exclusion, which isn't nearly enough to prevent the thread from being in another section of the forum..

 

[icefire]

We had last year the very rare Giro/Vuelta 'double'

 

[luckyboy]

We had last year the very rare Giro/Vuelta 'double'

Only Contador would be able to do a Giro/Tour double out of today's riders. As if that wasn't stating the obvious.

 

[craig1985]

Probably because I don't think it is possible, even with some good PEDs. Look at Menchov and Sastre this year, both rode a strong Giro (and in the former's case, he won it), and come the TdF, both got dropped in the mountains, and again in Menchov's case, he kept falling off, which is something you want to avoid.

 

[hfer07]

Probably because I don't think it is possible, even with some good PEDs. Look at Menchov and Sastre this year, both rode a strong Giro (and in the former's case, he won it), and come the TdF, both got dropped in the mountains, and again in Menchov's case, he kept falling off, which is something you want to avoid.

Menchov just got scared from the Austrian doping ring incident, so he wasn't going to do anything exceptional to even bring more attention.
Sastre was Literally toasted: four grand tours from the summer of 2008 got a huge toll on his performance-also having a not so strong team in 09 to support him could add up as well.

And on top of that, the infamous dominance of Astana in the TTT & AC coming back to the tour, just left no room at all to maneuver...

but yes- either AC, AS or VN could achieve the double GT in the future "if the conditions, the parcours & the training is carefully planned for them"

 

[Polish]

2007

Ooops, I forgot about 2008

AC could have done the Double that year if Astana was not banned?

ASO would have had to lift the ban AFTER AC's Giro win -
If they lifted it before, AC probably would not have ridden the Giro.

So I guess there are 3 reasons for no Double this decade...
1) Lance not trying
2) ASO TdF ban of Giro winner in 2006 - Basso
3) ASO TdF ban of Giro winner in 2008 - AC


craig, it is possible - it has been done by 7 dopers I mean riders.\
Maybe the dope was better in the 40's through the 90's

 

[Frosty]

Just for completeness' sake, Contador won the Giro last year (2008) but his team was banned from the Tour

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think it will be done again for a long long time.

The only Giro-double I ever forsee happening, is someone who skips the tour, does the Giro/Vuelta - someone like Sastre, Menchov, Evans, Gesink, Basso, Nibali - I could actually see those guys do it. However, anyone who's really serious, AC, AS will never skip the TDF, and most guys are scared that winning the Giro leaves you with legs made of cement for the TDF.

The only back-to-back double I can see happening, is AC doing the TDF/Vuelta. Many of us suggested this in another thread, that after he wins the TDF for maybe a fourth or fifth time, he will have that season long endurance, to return to the homeland to show that he cares about other GTs (becoz let's be honest, under JB, if they weren't barred for the 2008 TDF, AC would NEVER have gone to the Giro - it just isn't JBs approach to winning the TDF - that said, its exceptional that he put a TDF rejection beside him and won the Giro/Vuelta double)

So I hope Sastre, Menchov, Evans, Gesink, Basso all bypass the TDF this year and head straight to Italy and Spain (I doubt EVans adn Gesink will skip the tour tho - but I wish, as an CE fan, that he does at least the Giro this year as I said in the Giro thread)

 

[Ferminal]

If ASchleck wasn't a significant threat, Contador would probably go for the triple one year.

 

[Anonymous]

its nothing to do with the rider (well it is, but you know what i mean), its to do with the competition...

in the giro you face one set of riders, at peak form, at the top of their fitness, who are trying to win the giro, in the tour you are against, another set of riders who are focusing on the tour, at the peak of their fitness.. yes admittedly there are some other riders doing both, but are they really trying to win both?

the only way anyone will do the double in the near future is is ALL of the top riders, focus on riding all three tours.. then, and only then, will one rider be able to do it, the one rider who is clearly better..

it is possible, but the way riders and teams focus on certain grand tours each year makes it nigh on impossible..

and the ifs butts and wherefores of basso being not allowed to do the tour, astana not being allowed to do the tour, in astanas case, AC probably wouldnt have done the giro, and i doubt basso would have won the tour..

 

[Anonymous]

if you beleive the american fans the ToC will be a grand tour soon.. maybe someone will pull off the ToC, TdF double..

EbH won the tour of britain, tour of poland, and tour of the benalux this year.. does that count?

 

[scribe]

I won the tour of toilet.

 

[scribe]

That's pronounced toil-a

 

[ludwig]

It shouldn't be surprising in this age of increasing specialization that the double is rare. Basso would have had a good shot at it in 2006, but it wasn't to be.

With most Spanish riders focused on the Tour/Vuelta double and everyone else fixated on the Tour, what is needed is an elite Italian rider who tops the competition. We could perhaps imagine someone like Evans or Menchov going for it but neither of them is likely to accomplish it.

If Basso is ever going to do it, it will have to be in the next 2 seasons. Besides Basso, maybe Nibali will challenge for a double when he matures further.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It shouldn't be surprising in this age of increasing specialization that the double is rare. Basso would have had a good shot at it in 2006, but it wasn't to be.

With most Spanish riders focused on the Tour/Vuelta double and everyone else fixated on the Tour, what is needed is an elite Italian rider who tops the competition. We could perhaps imagine someone like Evans or Menchov going for it but neither of them is likely to accomplish it.

If Basso is ever going to do it, it will have to be in the next 2 seasons. Besides Basso, maybe Nibali will challenge for a double when he matures further.

The highlighted comment above is the key to this issue imo. Most of the Italian teams or riders are interested in going all out for either the Giro or Tour. In certain cases - like Liguigas - they can concentrate one rider on the Giro and another rider on the Tour.

The only rider currently capable of pulling off both is Contador.

 

[pataphysician]

It shouldn't be surprising in this age of increasing specialization that the double is rare. Basso would have had a good shot at it in 2006, but it wasn't to be.

With most Spanish riders focused on the Tour/Vuelta double and everyone else fixated on the Tour, what is needed is an elite Italian rider who tops the competition. We could perhaps imagine someone like Evans or Menchov going for it but neither of them is likely to accomplish it.

If Basso is ever going to do it, it will have to be in the next 2 seasons. Besides Basso, maybe Nibali will challenge for a double when he matures further.

I think it would be great for the protour to find a way to counteract the specialization and have the all best of the sport at the starting and finishing lines for the major tours. I have always thought the LA method of focusing only one tour was bad for the sport. It's kind of like letting a hockey team compete in the playoffs without having to get beaten up throughout the season first. maybe take into account whether a team has fielded the A squad throughout the season or just focused on one tour, when deciding which teams get a license for the next year.

 

[python]

focusing on one tour a season had increased with the return of autologous transfusions. The limiting factor is blood storage limits (35 to 40 days).

we know from jaksche and sinkewitz that they’d deposit a couple of units at the beginning of the year and had to carefully plan their usage and resupply (withdrawals) based on the racing schedule and their blood shelf life. a rider who deposited a unit can not race full blast until his rbc count recovers - w/o the epo it’d take 4-6 weeks. the tour contenders would deposit right after the dophine. to speed up their rbc regeneration they’d use epo micro dosing (including the newest variants) but that practice became very dangerous with the increased ooc testing and dwindled among the top contenders. though theoretically possible to store blood for month and years, my understanding is that neither fuentes not freiburg used the method.

So unless basso had several bags in storage (he’d need at least 2 but from kohl we know they’d try to use 3-4 during the 3 weeks) he’d have hard time winning the 2006 tour. again the most industrious program can deliver not so much the rider.

 

[reba99]

???

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'd venture to guess if AC tires it in the next two years, he might be able to pull off a Giro/Tour double. There's talk of him trying it next year, but I doubt he will. I can see him trying, and pulling off a Tour/Vuelta double though. I think that would do well for the sport perhaps.

I think it's almost as possible Basso will do it, but only if Basso can return to better form than he showed in 2009, wins the Giro, and then AC tanks in the Tour, crashes out, or is suspended, and Basso rises past the Schlecks, Kreuziger, Nabili, etc.

If somehow doping is actually curbed, perhaps we could see a young rider with confidence win a Tour, then return the next year or so and do a double. I don't know who that rider is though. Perhaps someone 17-18 years old right now.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Could it happen, next season?
"The Giro is suited to me: the time trial, the mountain time trial, stages to Plans de Corones, Zoncolan, Gavia and Mortirolo," said 2008 Giro d'Italia winner Alberto Contador.
He was also interviewed during the Giro presentation.

Of course, the course does really suit him, but it doesn't mean he'll ride there.
Even though the route is perfect prep for a very similar Tour.

Much depends upon what legacy he wishes to leave. Simply rack up Tour wins, a la Armstrong, or re-write the record books in a different style.

 

[craig1985]

I think Lance could of done it at his peak TdF winning streak, if he wanted to do it. I'm sure Dr Ferrari would know what to do...

As for Nibali, I'm not sure about him doing the Giro/Tour double. Maybe he could win the Vuelta, or even the Giro, but I'm not sure about the Tour. Otherwise podium is his best bet.

 

[icefire]

Could it happen, next season?
"The Giro is suited to me: the time trial, the mountain time trial, stages to Plans de Corones, Zoncolan, Gavia and Mortirolo," said 2008 Giro d'Italia winner Alberto Contador.
He was also interviewed during the Giro presentation.

Of course, the course does really suit him, but it doesn't mean he'll ride there.
Even though the route is perfect prep for a very similar Tour.

Much depends upon what legacy he wishes to leave. Simply rack up Tour wins, a la Armstrong, or re-write the record books in a different style.

AC was short on training when he went to the 2008 Giro, so even if he is a climber he built his win on his TT advantage over Italian riders. With the 2010 race course and the competitive level of Italian climbers the course does not suit him unless he trains to be at peak form in May, which he won't do for obvious reasons. Of course, he didn't say that in the interview

Regarding legacy we all know what's the media impact and the field of contenders of Tour and Giro no matter how good or bad their courses are. But this a discussion for a different thread.

 

[Anonymous]

I think it would be great for the protour to find a way to counteract the specialization and have the all best of the sport at the starting and finishing lines for the major tours. I have always thought the LA method of focusing only one tour was bad for the sport. It's kind of like letting a hockey team compete in the playoffs without having to get beaten up throughout the season first. maybe take into account whether a team has fielded the A squad throughout the season or just focused on one tour, when deciding which teams get a license for the next year.

I have to disagree with this. For me personally, what makes the three GTs interesting, is that they are all different. Different terrain, different traditions, and different styles of riders.

There is absolutely no way a team will send it's A team to all three GTs, and this is not the kind of thing that should be enforced by the decision makers. Like most, cycling is a money driven industry, and that means "don't put all your eggs in one basket" - so what I mean is, if you've got 25 riders on your squad, use them in various different races and maximise their return.

So specialisation is not something Lance started or anything like that, its what the economics of the sport decides, and intervening in this could drive away sponsors and potentially lead to teams decreasing the number of riders on their squad. Specialisation is a rational response by managers to get the best out of their riders, which is why we see guys capable of podium in the tour targeting the tour, the guys who can't podium/top 5 in the tour should probably target the giro/vuelta, purely becoz traditionally the tour is a different type of race than the giro/vuelta (i.e. longer sustained mountains and long time trials, whereas the other two are shorter sharper painful mountains and shorter time trials)

 

[Frosty]

Will Contador's race schedule next season depend on which team he is on? If he ends up at CdE then i would have thought that Valverde might fancy taking the Vuelta, if he is available.