No longer a Lance fanboy thread

[Seattleallstar]

If big George's testimony is true, im off it. This is the one guy I would believe. Lance why oh why, then again theres the argument that everyone did it. Only thing I would be worried about now is the Livestrong movement and hoping it wouldnt affect the people that it has inspired and helped.

 

[Pharazon]

should be in the clinic, but if you honestly believed anyone could win 7 tours in a row in an era of EPO, etc without being juiced you're frikking insane

 

[Bavarianrider]

If big George's testimony is true, im off it. This is the one guy I would believe. Lance why oh why, then again theres the argument that everyone did it. Only thing I would be worried about now is the Livestrong movement and hoping it wouldnt affect the people that it has inspired and helped.

Sorry, but what planet are you living on? You thought till this day that Lance was clean

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

MOving to the Clinic.

Susan

 

[TERMINATOR]

If big George's testimony is true, im off it. This is the one guy I would believe. Lance why oh why, then again theres the argument that everyone did it. Only thing I would be worried about now is the Livestrong movement and hoping it wouldnt affect the people that it has inspired and helped.

Hincapie has been part of the Omerta since the beginning. For you to say he's the only credible guy says something about your intelligence. The only reason these guys are ratting each other out now is because lying to a federal agent will send you to jail and the feds will not hesitate to prosecute them for that. This isn't Europe with their little "suspended jail sentence" games they play.

The loyalty to Lance ends with the threat of a jail sentence for lying to a federal agent. Hincapie would have taken this secret to his grave if not for the federal investigation. Hincapie also doesn't want Lance to know he ratted him out because then he'd be faced with a mountain of hate from Lance's PR donkeys.

 

[Oldman]

There's still time to meet for a Saturday ride from Leschi and hear about the clean riders from that time. What's more heroic than guys that wouldn't drink the soup to make their money and set themselves up as deities? They're real people.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, but what planet are you living on? You thought till this day that Lance was clean

should be in the clinic, but if you honestly believed anyone could win 7 tours in a row in an era of EPO, etc without being juiced you're frikking insane

I dont actually think this is the time for insults and ridiculing people. I dont beleive in god and frankly I think the concept that he exists is ridiculous BUT some people do and that is their right. Not for me to laugh at them if its ever proven he doesnt exist.

I actually think its a really sad situation. Not everyone has the knowlege that some of us on here do. Some people did believe in the "miracle", some beleived in Lance because they had had involvement with livestrong through a relative or friend with cancer.

Ive been keeping a careful eye on twitter, most notably the messages to lance. and where when it was floyd or tyler the fans were saying it was lies and wishing lance well, now they are hurt, betrayed and confused. Its not pretty seeing your Idol humiliated in front of you. Its not easy realising that what you beleived was in fact a lie and all those who tried to tell you that you ridiculed were telling the truth. Fans who are taking off their livestrong bands, cutting them up, its not far from the scenes of americans burning beatles records in the 60's

I say cut them some slack. Like i say, not everyone is as well informed as you or I. Remember a lot of people get all of their information from versus tv and the propoganda machine of Liggett and Sherwen.

 

[Escarabajo]

should be in the clinic, but if you honestly believed anyone could win 7 tours in a row in an era of EPO, etc without being juiced you're frikking insane

It is beyond my imagination that somebody can still believe that. Basically there are many reasons but one of the most logical reasons that does not need proof itself is that one that you said in the bolded font.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

For some people this is the 'say it ain't so Joe' moment. Which is fair enough. People have been lied to, some didn't see it, some chose not to see it. The people who deserve the abuse are the liars and the aiders and abettors. Pretty much every cycling journalist with a few exceptions like Walsh and Kimmage needs to be given a kicking.

 

[pmcg76]

I do feel kinda sorry for the people who honestly believed but if any of them were on here calling everyone who knew the truth bitter haters, no sympathy.

A little off-topic, just finished watching the end of ToC live stream, I havent heard P & P for a while now and it seems that Sherwan does most of the the commentating whilst Phil adds the colour now. When did this change happen?

Secondly I heard them waxing lyrical about George H, did they mention the supposed confssion, I would imagine not.

 

[jobiwan]

I do feel kinda sorry for the people who honestly believed but if any of them were on here calling everyone who knew the truth bitter haters, no sympathy.

A little off-topic, just finished watching the end of ToC live stream, I havent heard P & P for a while now and it seems that Sherwan does most of the the commentating whilst Phil adds the colour now. When did this change happen?

Secondly I heard them waxing lyrical about George H, did they mention the supposed confssion, I would imagine not.

They talked about George for 30 seconds - sort of a "Let's see what facts are true." I do recall that they did mention the reported confession, albeit briefly.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I dont actually think this is the time for insults and ridiculing people. I dont beleive in god and frankly I think the concept that he exists is ridiculous BUT some people do and that is their right. Not for me to laugh at them if its ever proven he doesnt exist.

I actually think its a really sad situation. Not everyone has the knowlege that some of us on here do. Some people did believe in the "miracle", some beleived in Lance because they had had involvement with livestrong through a relative or friend with cancer.

Ive been keeping a careful eye on twitter, most notably the messages to lance. and where when it was floyd or tyler the fans were saying it was lies and wishing lance well, now they are hurt, betrayed and confused. Its not pretty seeing your Idol humiliated in front of you. Its not easy realising that what you beleived was in fact a lie and all those who tried to tell you that you ridiculed were telling the truth. Fans who are taking off their livestrong bands, cutting them up, its not far from the scenes of americans burning beatles records in the 60's

I say cut them some slack. Like i say, not everyone is as well informed as you or I. Remember a lot of people get all of their information from versus tv and the propoganda machine of Liggett and Sherwen.

Again, great post Dim.

As you say a lot of genuine 'fans' who took their information from the likes Phil & Paul or Bicycling etc will have been still holding out hope that LA is clean and now have to accept that it is not the case - and I feel sorry for them.
Everyone here was probably a fan of one rider or another and it is not pleasant to finally admit that they cheated or lied.

Sure, I am delighted that the truth is coming out but not because it sinks LA (he has been doomed since the FDA got involved) but because there is an opportunity now for cycling to finally address it problems rather than sweeping it under the rug and restore it as the great sport it always has been.

 

[pmcg76]

I do feel kinda sorry for the people who honestly believed but if any of them were on here calling everyone who knew the truth bitter haters, no sympathy. I have to admit despite having gone through Festina, I was still naive enough to believe in Lance at the start even though I was as amazed as anyone. I couldnt comprehend someone blatantly doping and then taking taking the 'I had cancer so no way would I dope' line. It just seemed unreal that someone could be so...cannot even think of the word. That is why I am more hostile towards Lance than any other doper. I was never closed to the idea he could be doping and as the evidence built, I realised the truth but it was 03/04 before I finally got off the fence so it still took 4/5 Tours. Mind you I was still very young at the time.

A little off-topic, just finished watching the end of ToC live stream, I havent heard P & P for a while now and it seems that Sherwan does most of the the commentating whilst Phil adds the colour now. When did this change happen?

Secondly I heard them waxing lyrical about George H, did they mention the supposed confssion, I would imagine not.

 

[Bavarianrider]

I do feel kinda sorry for the people who honestly believed but if any of them were on here calling everyone who knew the truth bitter haters, no sympathy. I have to admit despite having gone through Festina, I was still naive enough to believe in Lance at the start even though I was as amazed as anyone. I couldnt comprehend someone blatantly doping and then taking taking the 'I had cancer so no way would I dope' line. It just seemed unreal that someone could be so...cannot even think of the word. That is why I am more hostile towards Lance than any other doper. I was never closed to the idea he could be doping and as the evidence built, I realised the truth but it was 03/04 before I finally got off the fence so it still took 4/5 Tours. Mind you I was still very young at the time.

A little off-topic, just finished watching the end of ToC live stream, I havent heard P & P for a while now and it seems that Sherwan does most of the the commentating whilst Phil adds the colour now. When did this change happen?

Secondly I heard them waxing lyrical about George H, did they mention the supposed confssion, I would imagine not.

You are amking a fair point. The fact that Lance spoke out so agressively against drugs, including all his cancer history stuff certainly made many many people believe him. Heck those statements where he said "i had cancer you must be a total fool if you think i would take any drugs after going through this", are just so disgusting, but it made people belive him. What a fraud this man is.

 

[Anonymous]

You are amking a fair point. The fact that Lance spoke out so agressively against drugs, including all his cancer history stuff certainly made many many people believe him. Heck those statements where he said "i had cancer you must be a total fool if you think i would take any drugs after going through this", are just so disgusting, but it made people belive him. What a fraud this man is.

But not only that, you have "respected" journalists such as Phil Ligget who is the voice of cycling to many americans since the british decided they didnt want him, who was at the ToC last year branding Landis a lair, saying "he knew Lance personally and lance was 100% against doping", that they where "ridiculous allegations without a shred of evidence". "If Pat Mcquad knew about doping at Postal he would probably resign"

For a vast percentage of the Lance fans who do rely on people like Liggett for their facts, of course they stuck by him, thats what the PR machine told them to do.

yes there are a few on here who called everyone haters etc, but on the whole I think they were just **** stirring. they knew the truth.

 

[Berzin]

I posted this somewhere else, and it's a rehashing of an older post made a while ago but it begs repeating.

-Here is something I heard years ago, I believe it was right after Armstrong's first Tour win. Armstrong has only one testicle, and can survive just fine with one producing testosterone depending on the physiological circumstances.

Under "medical supervision" a recovering cancer patient like him would be allowed to take up to a ratio of 7:1 in synthetic testosterone to make up for any "deficiencies" in testosterone production.

From what I understand Armstrong took advantage of this particular loophole. The UCI was notified of this but the information was never made public because it would cause a stir, even with a TUE. Plus, it would ruin what was turning into the feel-good story of the year back in 1999. Remember it was the race director at the time who declared that year's race "The Tour of Redemption", so there was a lot at stake for all concerned parties involved.

If anyone recalls Chris Boardman suffered from osteoporosis that required hormone therapy which he refused to take while he was riding professionally because he was concerned about the public backlash.

We know the ratio for testing positive for testosterone is 4:1. Armstrong allegedly raced at levels that exceeded this amount. For the apologists, fanboys and weekend armchair physiologists, it is debatable whether testosterone is effective for cycling. Let's just say it is for the sake of argument.

To be allowed to take so much of it explains a lot. It explains Armstrong's relationship between he and the Tour organizers and the UCI. It explains that even amongst dopers, there wasn't a level playing field. This really rips a hole in the argument that "they all doped, so the best rider STILL won".

This is a common fallacy that is spewed by people who refuse to come to grips with the reality that Armstrong is cycling's version of the Six-Million Dollar Man.

Except he was recreated with doping products and protection from testing positive by the governing bodies. The elevated levels of testosterone, along with the EPO/HemAssist that initially made his new "higher cadence" and improved power-to-weight possible. It wasn't because he had dropped 15 or 20 pounds of weight while he was being treated with chemo.


-Fanboyism doesn't adequately explain the suspension of belief required when it comes to the physiological metamorphosis Armstrong underwent to become a Tour champion. The higher cadence, loss of weight, hard work and determination-this is what Armstrong and his people were selling, and his fans bought it. People wanted to believe that through sheer hard work one could achieve anything. This is part of the American Dream that will not die regardless of what details get exposed. The fleas will just move on to another host once the Armstrong carcass has been stripped of all credibility.

There is something sick and twisted about the whole ruse that beggars belief, which is why I feel it's so important. I just want to hear it all. It was the drugs that made him, it was the UCI that protected him, and it was his fans that propped him up. Now that we are on the cusp of actual charges being filed, let's hear it all. Let them all come forward. It will do much to help us understand exactly how he did it.

 

[Frosty]

I remember Phil going off on one in 2009 about Astana being target-tested - 'they wont find anything because there is nothing to find' or something like that. Pathetic.

 

[Merckx index]

Under "medical supervision" a recovering cancer patient like him would be allowed to take up to a ratio of 7:1 in synthetic testosterone to make up for any "deficiencies" in testosterone production.

From what I understand Armstrong took advantage of this particular loophole. The UCI was notified of this but the information was never made public because it would cause a stir, even with a TUE. Plus, it would ruin what was turning into the feel-good story of the year back in 1999. Remember it was the race director at the time who declared that year's race "The Tour of Redemption", so there was a lot at stake for all concerned parties involved.

We know the ratio for testing positive for testosterone is 4:1. Armstrong allegedly raced at levels that exceeded this amount. For the apologists, fanboys and weekend armchair physiologists, it is debatable whether testosterone is effective for cycling. Let's just say it is for the sake of argument.

To be allowed to take so much of it explains a lot. It explains Armstrong's relationship between he and the Tour organizers and the UCI. It explains that even amongst dopers, there wasn't a level playing field. This really rips a hole in the argument that "they all doped, so the best rider STILL won".

This is a common fallacy that is spewed by people who refuse to come to grips with the reality that Armstrong is cycling's version of the Six-Million Dollar Man.

Except he was recreated with doping products and protection from testing positive by the governing bodies. The elevated levels of testosterone, along with the EPO/HemAssist that initially made his new "higher cadence" and improved power-to-weight possible. It wasn't because he had dropped 15 or 20 pounds of weight while he was being treated with chemo.


-Fanboyism doesn't adequately explain the suspension of belief required when it comes to the physiological metamorphosis Armstrong underwent to become a Tour champion. The higher cadence, loss of weight, hard work and determination-this is what Armstrong and his people were selling, and his fans bought it. People wanted to believe that through sheer hard work one could achieve anything. This is part of the American Dream that will not die regardless of what details get exposed. The fleas will just move on to another host once the Armstrong carcass has been stripped.

Whoa. The allowable T/E ratio was 6:1 for many years, it was lowered to 4:1 around the time LA retired (which might not be a coincidence, who knows). Let's assume he was able to exceed this limit, though. How is it going to turn him into a climber? Testosterone helps all the muscles, not the ones below the belt preferentially. It's particularly useful in accelerating recovery, and is probably particularly important in pre-race training, but again, better recovery, meaning harder training is possible, still does not turn a one day rider into a climber. The Lance-had-a-better-program folks still have not addressed this point.

One of the interesting things about George's leaked testimony is that he basically said he and LA shared EPO. Likewise, Tyler said he watched LA inject EPO,and implied that everyone was basically doing the same thing. Nothing about how LA was using something that other riders didn't have access to, or that LA had a better EPO program.

If LA, say, really had access to HemAssist or some other untestable PED, why was he fooling around with EPO? For his first two Tours, of course, there was no EPO test, so probably he had no reason to consider using anything else. But by the same token, the burden of proof is heavily on those who claim he had an edge over other EPO users. Beginning in 2001, when there was an EPO test, LA probably switched to blood doping. If he really did use HemAssist, PFC, or some other exotic oxygen vector, maybe some of this will come out in the investigation. But until it does, let's keep in mind that there is no real evidence that LA had a doping edge over other riders.

 

[pmcg76]

Whoa. The allowable T/E ratio was 6:1 for many years, it was lowered to 4:1 around the time LA retired (which might not be a coincidence, who knows). Let's assume he was able to exceed this limit, though. How is it going to turn him into a climber? Testosterone helps all the muscles, not the ones below the belt preferentially. It's particularly useful in accelerating recovery, and is probably particularly important in pre-race training, but again, better recovery, meaning harder training is possible, still does not turn a one day rider into a climber. The Lance-had-a-better-program folks still have not addressed this point.

One of the interesting things about George's leaked testimony is that he basically said he and LA shared EPO. Likewise, Tyler said he watched LA inject EPO,and implied that everyone was basically doing the same thing. Nothing about how LA was using something that other riders didn't have access to, or that LA had a better EPO program.

If LA, say, really had access to HemAssist or some other untestable PED, why was he fooling around with EPO? For his first two Tours, of course, there was no EPO test, so probably he had no reason to consider using anything else. But by the same token, the burden of proof is heavily on those who claim he had an edge over other EPO users. Beginning in 2001, when there was an EPO test, LA probably switched to blood doping. If he really did use HemAssist, PFC, or some other exotic oxygen vector, maybe some of this will come out in the investigation. But until it does, let's keep in mind that there is no real evidence that LA had a doping edge over other riders.

You have a valid point but it also seems me might have had a protection status that no other riders had.

I dont know what turned Lance into a climber, it not necessarily about having the best products but how you resond to those products, what works for one guy might not work for another but I do believe that Dr.Ferrari was an expert at tailoring EPO with training programmes. I personally dont believe Ferrari actually injected many people with EPO, more like he advised them how to utilise EPO effectively.

 

[hfer07]

If LA, say, really had access to HemAssist or some other untestable PED, why was he fooling around with EPO? For his first two Tours, of course, there was no EPO test, so probably he had no reason to consider using anything else. But by the same token, the burden of proof is heavily on those who claim he had an edge over other EPO users. Beginning in 2001, when there was an EPO test, LA probably switched to blood doping. If he really did use HemAssist, PFC, or some other exotic oxygen vector, maybe some of this will come out in the investigation. But until it does, let's keep in mind that there is no real evidence that LA had a doping edge over other riders.

so do you think having the UCI as LA's ally wasn't a huge advantage over the peloton? If everybody was doped up as they were-would't you deduct that LA's doping levels were indeed higher than the others in order to beat them?

 

[Berzin]

But until it does, let's keep in mind that there is no real evidence that LA had a doping edge over other riders.

The evidence is in the performances, as I've stated a million times.

What part of the Tour 1999-2005 did you miss that this little detail completely goes over your head?

The testosterone is what gave him the brute strength, climbing while seated as his rivals were all over their bikes, supposedly while on the same PED program as Lance.

For people like you, it's one of two ridiculous scenarios-

1) They were all doped using the same dope, and Armstrong was still better, therefore he was always a more talented rider and worked harder than anyone else.

2) There is no "proof" he was on a better doping program.

Sorry, but I don't agree with your line of reasoning nor do I respect it. At this stage of the game, it's always going to be people like you who will go off a cliff like a lemming with yet another manner in which to excuse Armstrong, but some of us aren't so willfully gullible.

 

[Murray]

...there is an opportunity now for cycling to finally address it problems rather than sweeping it under the rug and restore it as the great sport it always has been.

If only that were true. Cycling is addressing the problems it used to have. The riders involved are either retired or in the twilight of their careers. In the meantime a rider who has tested positive is leading the Giro. Instead of focusing on what happened 10 years ago they should address what's happening now.

Maybe Contador will confess when he's long retired, but by then it will be too late to matter.

 

[yourwelcome]

I do feel kinda sorry for the people who honestly believed but if any of them were on here calling everyone who knew the truth bitter haters, no sympathy.

To be fair, there are plenty of virulently bitter haters here - this forum is their clubhouse. Depending on who we're talking about, calling some people bitter haters would have been a simple statement of fact, no less true than Lance's EPO.

Some here are substantially more vitriolic than people who have actually known and been treated shabbily by Lance. You have to wonder what their psychological issue is.

But yeah, you do have a point in general.

 

[ChrisE]

so do you think having the UCI as LA's ally wasn't a huge advantage over the peloton? If everybody was doped up as they were-would't you deduct that LA's doping levels were indeed higher than the others in order to beat them?

Why didn't any other top GT threats get busted at the TdF from 99 thru 2005?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Why didn't any other top GT threats get busted at the TdF from 99 thru 2005?

Except for Rumsas, who had no business being there, you mean?

Why do you think they didn't get busted? For the same reason the 20-odd riders who failed the 2001 Tour de Suisse doping tests didn't get busted. Oh, and that 20 included one Lance Armstrong.