No longer a Lance fanboy thread

[skippythepinhead]

When I see evidence not simply of monetary donations, but of preferential treatment on tests, then I will add that to the list. I haven’t seen that evidence yet. Not by any means saying it doesn’t exist, just that it hasn’t come out in an obvious way. The Tyler/Floyd statement about TdS is very suggestive but I will wait till that's confirmed.

But even if it did happen, while it certainly adds to the fraud, it doesn't necessarily explain why he won all those Tours. Prior to 06, Ulle skated, Basso skated, Vino skated, many others skated. If LA was paying UCI, what was the money buying him? A different criterion for a positive? Prove it.

I'm sorry. The undisclosed payment to the UCI is prima facie evidence of corruption. Evidence. However, I do not understand your burden of proof argument.

You appear to be arguing that simply because there is corruption, there is no evidence that that corruption corrupted anything. I'm afraid there's no way to win this argument with you because you are asking me to connect dots I would argue are connected by virtue of the existence of corruption.

Can you prove the negative? That the corruption somehow provided no benefit to either side? That a rider paying for and knowing which model of testing machine his donation was covering was not corruptive of the results or the process for that rider/donor/briber?

If not, what specific evidence will satisfy you?

 

[thirteen]

Really good blog post from a lance fan, and cancer survivor.

http://phoenixonceagain.blogspot.com/2011/05/may-21-2011.html

excellent! thank you. that goes to the heart...

 

[Bavarianrider]

But not only that, you have "respected" journalists such as Phil Ligget who is the voice of cycling to many americans since the british decided they didnt want him, who was at the ToC last year branding Landis a lair, saying "he knew Lance personally and lance was 100% against doping", that they where "ridiculous allegations without a shred of evidence". "If Pat Mcquad knew about doping at Postal he would probably resign"

For a vast percentage of the Lance fans who do rely on people like Liggett for their facts, of course they stuck by him, thats what the PR machine told them to do.

yes there are a few on here who called everyone haters etc, but on the whole I think they were just **** stirring. they knew the truth.

Seriously, damn didn't think that Ligget is such a moron

 

[krismtb]

Rah rah rah.

Even if Lance admits to everything I'd still be a fan, in some form or another. The positives from his "successes" far outweigh the lies, cheating and anything that has to do with wining a bicycle race.

I'm sure you disagree because following Pro cycling is your life (right?) but one could also say that following soap operas is important to stay-at-home housewives. Both of which are equally meaningless when propped up against cancer-fighting, etc.

 

[Oldskoolkool]

Can someone remind me of Lance's TDF results pre'99?

ie before he dominated the Tour for 7 years in a row against riders doped to the eyeballs and before he met Dr Ferrari?

 

[ChrisE]

Can someone remind me of Lance's TDF results pre'99?

ie before he dominated the Tour for 7 years in a row against riders doped to the eyeballs and before he met Dr Ferrari?

Welcome to the party.

 

[Oldskoolkool]

Rah rah rah.

Even if Lance admits to everything I'd still be a fan, in some form or another. The positives from his "successes" far outweigh the lies, cheating and anything that has to do with wining a bicycle race.

I'm sure you disagree because following Pro cycling is your life (right?) but one could also say that following soap operas is important to stay-at-home housewives. Both of which are equally meaningless when propped up against cancer-fighting, etc.

What about the lives Lance has ruined in his pursuit of glory?

The riders who fell by the wayside because they wouldnt dope to compete with the doped up riders headed by Lance.
Or the people who tried to tell the truth and Lance and co crushed under foot facilitated by his status,money,influence and power?
Or by the confusion that many people have with Livestrong.com and Livestrong.org,one being the charity and one the personal money making machine?

Cancer existed before Lance and people were well aware of it,Id like to see proof that more people are aware of cancer since WonderLance.

Im sure the Grand Jury will let Lance off all the charges of corruption,fraud,drug trafficking etc if he reminds them of all the good he's personally done purely in the name of cancer awareness

 

[pmcg76]

Rah rah rah.

Even if Lance admits to everything I'd still be a fan, in some form or another. The positives from his "successes" far outweigh the lies, cheating and anything that has to do with wining a bicycle race.

I'm sure you disagree because following Pro cycling is your life (right?) but one could also say that following soap operas is important to stay-at-home housewives. Both of which are equally meaningless when propped up against cancer-fighting, etc.

Therefore, the end justifies the means. All those big business guys who throw a lot of money at charity, they are all ok as wel,l even if they broke a few rules and cheated people out of money on their path to the top. As long as they done something good for people less well off.

 

[theswordsman]

Rah rah rah.

Even if Lance admits to everything I'd still be a fan, in some form or another. The positives from his "successes" far outweigh the lies, cheating and anything that has to do with wining a bicycle race.

I'm sure you disagree because following Pro cycling is your life (right?) but one could also say that following soap operas is important to stay-at-home housewives. Both of which are equally meaningless when propped up against cancer-fighting, etc.

Excellent choice going to a cycling forum and insulting people for spending people in cycling forums. You don't care that he's lied to you for years? He's lied in commercials, he's lied in books, and he's lied in interviews and on talk shows. Not only that, he's tried to make life miserable for a lot of good people who told the truth. But that's OK, because he was in Dodgeball, and would probably be a cool guy to hang out with for a minute or two?

Is there any crime in the law books that Lance could be found guilty of that would cause you to stop being a fan, or can he literally do no wrong in your eyes? Or will the bar just keep being raised as new things come to light? He lied to win $7.5 million in a lawsuit, but that wouldn't have hurt anyone, right? And if hospital patients got lower doses of EPO than they needed because a pharmacist diluted theirs so they could sell it to dopers, what the heck, right?

The investigation has been going for more than a year, and includes the FDA, the FBI, the DEA, two levels of the Justice Department, USADA, Interpol, AFLD, and police from Italy, Spain, Switzerland, France and Belgium, that I've heard of. And it's not about stripping him of his Tour de France titles.

Just for fun - accept for a minute that he tested positive at the 2001 Tour de Suisse, and that no one ever found out about it, even though WADA and the UCI are supposed to act independently. How do you think that happens? He's already been accused of offering bribes to guys to let him win a U.S. race so that he could collect a bonus. Did he bribe the UCI and WADA?

 

[Anonymous]

Rah rah rah.

Even if Lance admits to everything I'd still be a fan, in some form or another. The positives from his "successes" far outweigh the lies, cheating and anything that has to do with wining a bicycle race.

I'm sure you disagree because following Pro cycling is your life (right?) but one could also say that following soap operas is important to stay-at-home housewives. Both of which are equally meaningless when propped up against cancer-fighting, etc.

So try reading the blog I linked to. Thats just one person, one cancer survivor who feels betrayed and hurt by the lies. A cancer survivor who actually supports Livestrong and hates the Hollywood-ising of LAF.

There are many more thousands, maybe millions feeling the same way. Betrayed and hurt.

Really good blog post from a lance fan, and cancer survivor.

http://phoenixonceagain.blogspot.com/2011/05/may-21-2011.html

 

[skippythepinhead]

Rah rah rah.

Even if Lance admits to everything I'd still be a fan, in some form or another. The positives from his "successes" far outweigh the lies, cheating and anything that has to do with wining a bicycle race.

I'm sure you disagree because following Pro cycling is your life (right?) but one could also say that following soap operas is important to stay-at-home housewives. Both of which are equally meaningless when propped up against cancer-fighting, etc.

Wow.

Far from the rapture not occurring yesterday, I now see that I was simply not called to the throne but was instead sent to my own personal H-E-double-hockey-sticks where I'm fated to have to deal with the same reality-divorced sycophantic nonsense as the day before.

Whoopee.

 

[Oldman]

Can someone remind me of Lance's TDF results pre'99?

ie before he dominated the Tour for 7 years in a row against riders doped to the eyeballs and before he met Dr Ferrari?

You and krismtb must be new to the payroll. Hopefully Fabiani is paying cash and has all the Q&A files for you. If you actually know anything about cycling you already know the answers to those questions.

 

[Horizon Deep]

Hincapie has been part of the Omerta since the beginning. For you to say he's the only credible guy says something about your intelligence. The only reason these guys are ratting each other out now is because lying to a federal agent will send you to jail and the feds will not hesitate to prosecute them for that. This isn't Europe with their little "suspended jail sentence" games they play.

The loyalty to Lance ends with the threat of a jail sentence for lying to a federal agent. Hincapie would have taken this secret to his grave if not for the federal investigation. Hincapie also doesn't want Lance to know he ratted him out because then he'd be faced with a mountain of hate from Lance's PR donkeys.

Pardon me! in europe we don't tend to deal in plea bargaining like in the good old U.S of A! Here in the civilised world if you're guilty then you're guilty!

 

[erik saunders]

they all lied.. i am just waiting for him to ask fans for their money so he can spend it on a losing legal defense like floyd and tyler...

 

[Oldskoolkool]

You and krismtb must be new to the payroll. Hopefully Fabiani is paying cash and has all the Q&A files for you. If you actually know anything about cycling you already know the answers to those questions.

Yeah I was being sarcastic lol. I know he was a pretty crap Tour rider pre '99, which is why I've always thought his wins were too good to be true.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

The thought of this gullible moron waking up every day with this giant tattoo on his back seems very funny to me. Do you think he is still a fanboy? Can he sue Armstrong for tattoo removal money?

 

[MacRoadie]

I thought this was bad enough:

 

[Benotti69]

Isnt that Eki's back??

on the front is one of Hog.

 

[thehog]

Isnt that Eki's back??

Ekki's back is much more hairy.

 

[Benotti69]

Ekki's back is much more hairy.

Is he a silver back?

 

[VeloCity]

The thought of this gullible moron waking up every day with this giant tattoo on his back seems very funny to me. Do you think he is still a fanboy? Can he sue Armstrong for tattoo removal money?

That has got to be the fattest TdF winner I've ever seen.

 

[MacRoadie]

That has got to be the fattest TdF winner I've ever seen.

Abdominal breathing...

 

[Anonymous]

That has got to be the fattest TdF winner I've ever seen.

It's his heart dropping to his stomach after watching 60 minutes.

 

[lean mean &green]

This is a textbook example of what we see so commonly in religious fervor--starting with a view you want to support, then creating ideas that support the view. May I suggest you start the other way around? First provide evidence that testosterone can really turn a one-day racer into a climber, then use that as a reason for believing that LA might have done that. LA's performance is what we're trying to explain here, so you can't use that as evidence of an idea that has nothing else to support it.

it looks like more of a textbook example of confirmation bias than religious zealotry to me but that's just my opinion. if you're implying that players on both sides of the armstrong debate are guilty of it - you're right!

for example, where's the evidence that ferrari's a genius? it's accepted as fact but he's actually made some comments i'd label good old-fashioned stupid, even in the area of his "claimed" expertise. the debate is too emotionally charged at present but i look forward to a day when we can go back and figure out exactly what the h*ll happened inside that postal bus.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

it looks like more of a textbook example of confirmation bias than religious zealotry to me but that's just my opinion. if you're implying that players on both sides of the armstrong debate are guilty of it - you're right!

for example, where's the evidence that ferrari's a genius? it's accepted as fact but he's actually made some comments i'd label good old-fashioned stupid, even in the area of his "claimed" expertise. the debate is too emotionally charged at present but i look forward to a day when we can go back and figure out exactly what the h*ll happened inside that postal bus.

Sorry LMG - but thats a bit of a strawman. I don't know anyone here who says he is a 'genius'.
Now I will add that he is a very good doping Doctor primarily because he is a hematologist and unlike other Docs he traveled with LA for key training blocks.