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No races for you! UCI urinates on US, self

In http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci...tional-events?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=news_headlines,

McQuaid and the UCI take their frustrations out on the US domestic scene, by refusing to let the biggest national names race in national races unless events are UCI events, and not letting those events have the criteriums that are a part of the commercial viability of racing in the US.

I leave it to others to concoct a spin that makes this seem anything but a bunch of counterproductive positions stacked on top of each other.

-dB
 
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Anonymous

Guest
so levi wont be able to go and beat up on cat 1's and domestic riders at gila anymore..

i guess one argument could be that the likes of levi and lance at domestic races brings in crowds, but doesnt do anything for the racing.

personally im in favour of them not being able to ride, but then again, i dont really know the american scene.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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I'll spin. You've got a bunch of guys who can only race at the national level. A race like Tour Of The Gila can be a big goal for them. Then some Pro Tour guys who can race anywhere decide to be big fish in a small pond for their own agenda, and take over the top spots and attention. It's like college football players stepping in for the high school playoffs. Or a guy from Austin Texas going for the Colorado State MTB Championship.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Personally I always found it pathetic that they would want to turn up to US races like they have lately. Bit like a Cat 1 turning up with support riders to a small town Cat 4 race and being proud of themselves for winning $20. Sad.
 
Apr 14, 2010
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dbrower said:
In http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci...tional-events?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=news_headlines,

and not letting those events have the criteriums that are a part of the commercial viability of racing in the US.

-dB

The US stage races could just do the same thing the Tour Down Under does - as Australia also likes the crit format - and run crits the day leading into the start of the tour. Sky's Henderson won the crit, which didn't count towards the TdU, and the crit attracted all the ProTour teams, so the crowd got what they wanted.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Exaclty, why the hell would a ProTour rider want to race in an amateur race like Gila anyway? That is a little embarrasing that guys like Lance, Levi, Horner and George would even do that to be honest.
 
Out of curiosity, why doesn't the UCI recognize criteriums at all? Are they afraid that all races that don't have a 100 year history will disappear in favor of cheaper crit events? I guess it would be very boring if every stage race had mostly crits on every stage.
 
Oct 18, 2009
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jmax22 said:
Exaclty, why the hell would a ProTour rider want to race in an amateur race like Gila anyway? That is a little embarrasing that guys like Lance, Levi, Horner and George would even do that to be honest.

PCutter said:
The US stage races could just do the same thing the Tour Down Under does - as Australia also likes the crit format - and run crits the day leading into the start of the tour. Sky's Henderson won the crit, which didn't count towards the TdU, and the crit attracted all the ProTour teams, so the crowd got what they wanted.

Martin318is said:
Personally I always found it pathetic that they would want to turn up to US races like they have lately. Bit like a Cat 1 turning up with support riders to a small town Cat 4 race and being proud of themselves for winning $20. Sad.

theswordsman said:
I'll spin. You've got a bunch of guys who can only race at the national level. A race like Tour Of The Gila can be a big goal for them. Then some Pro Tour guys who can race anywhere decide to be big fish in a small pond for their own agenda, and take over the top spots and attention. It's like college football players stepping in for the high school playoffs. Or a guy from Austin Texas going for the Colorado State MTB Championship.

TeamSkyFans said:
so levi wont be able to go and beat up on cat 1's and domestic riders at gila anymore..

i guess one argument could be that the likes of levi and lance at domestic races brings in crowds, but doesnt do anything for the racing.

personally im in favour of them not being able to ride, but then again, i dont really know the american scene.

OK So I'm ****ing against the tide here, but I agree with the OP. If an organiser wants to invite a pro : why not? It's exciting for the domestic riders, the fans, it's positive for the pros to support grass roots cycling. And the Protour calendar is so ****** up nowadays I don't blame the pros for wanting to find some decent racing elsewhere.
This is yet another example of the UCI screwing things up to the detriment of everybody - Other examples being:
-a requirement for all officials cars to have electric sunroofs in UCI races
-the decision to drop the Individual pursuit in favour of the omnium
-the decision to accept bribes from Lance Armstrong
-the decision to make protour races obligatory, forcing poor teams to fly their riders to Australia, Canada and god knows where next, every season!
-the decision to allow the SAG to hold a protour race, in fücking January.
-the decision to allow certain riders to dope without consequence and others to get banned
-The decisoin to give Iran 6 riders at the Mens Worlds RR while Britain,New Zealand and Luxembourg have just 3
........I'll stop there, reluctantly!
 
Apr 14, 2010
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PCutter said:
The US stage races could just do the same thing the Tour Down Under does - as Australia also likes the crit format - and run crits the day leading into the start of the tour. Sky's Henderson won the crit, which didn't count towards the TdU, and the crit attracted all the ProTour teams, so the crowd got what they wanted.

agreed, i watched the TdU crit (on TV) here, it seemed to go really well, lots of people, exciting racing....i think in some ways we got a better look at the riders thanks to the cameras not skipping around the race so much (as they do for a grand tour).

That said, maybe i don't understand enough about this situation, so i'm just gonna think out loud here.....the problems are...

A) Pro-Tour riders competing at races where there's little competition for them

B) US based Pro's need races to build form for Pro Tour events

C) US Pro Tour teams like to show their faces at US races when possible (for their sponsors)

D) US stage races often have a crit stage somewhere in the middle of a race, and crits aren't allowed in UCI races

E) Continental teams aren't required to join the Bio Passport, potentially helping to build a culture of doping at lower levels that could infect the upper levels of the sport as riders graduate to Pro-C and Pro-T teams


So McQuaid says if US Pros and their teams want to race locally, more races need to be UCI sanctioned.....OK, so say those existing local races remove their crit stages (or have them the day before/after the stage race) and get UCI sanctioning ....now RS/Garmin/BMC can attend.....and who are they racing against hmm?? Even if more of the Continental teams step up to Pro-Cont, it's still going to be Levi etc kicking lower level riders' asses. Nothing changed except the "crit" is not 'critical' anymore (ie. it's less important cos it doesn't affect the outcome), since it's like a display race on day zero before the stage race starts.

There's a lot more i could "think out loud" here, but maybe i should cut to the chase. How about the UCI makes Bio Passport compulsory for Continental teams, AND allows handicapped participation for Pro-Tour riders at non-Pro Tour events. The biggest reason the US Pro-Tour riders joined Gila etc in the past was to build form - so let them do that, just make it hard (very hard!) for them to win. You still get:

- lots of media coverage for a big name rider joining a small race (which the race organisers will love)
- US Pros can work on their form without walking all over the riders whose race it really is
- crits (which are popular in the US) stay in the stage race, and this increases the public's appreciation of cycling (something you'd think the UCI would want)

Of course someone's gonna say "how do you handicap them, it's too hard to find a fair system, bla bla bla" - but honestly it doesn't have to be "fair"....it really just has to make it next to impossible for the Pro-Tour rider to win. They're there for form, anything else is a bonus.

It's also worth noting the UCI ocassionally allows the reverse of what's been going on at Gila, Utah etc. Some Pro-Tour races allow a national team of basically Continental level riders to participate - the TdU is an example. If they're lucky this team might get a stage, one stage win, at most. So they mostly try to show well in breaks, which can be great exposure for those riders hoping to move up into a new team and level, plus this animates the race.

It's their choice to play with the big boys, so no i'm not suggesting they should be given a positive time bonus to have a chance of winning - it's a Pro Tour race, it's not for them to win. But the UCI still lets them enter right? In a way, a negative handicap for a Pro-Tour rider at a local US race would be the same thing, allowing borders between levels to be flexible, for the greater good of all.
 
Jun 15, 2010
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dbrower said:
In http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci...tional-events?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=news_headlines,

McQuaid and the UCI take their frustrations out on the US domestic scene, by refusing to let the biggest national names race in national races unless events are UCI events, and not letting those events have the criteriums that are a part of the commercial viability of racing in the US.

I leave it to others to concoct a spin that makes this seem anything but a bunch of counterproductive positions stacked on top of each other.

-dB

The tour de Langkawi ends with a crit every year. How come?
 
Jul 4, 2009
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I think I am with the minority here, but I have no problem with pros turning up to any race they want. I am not the fastest guy around, but every now and then I win my grade (usually not the highest in the race). If I was in the top grade for a race, I would want to race against whoever turned up. That is the point of racing. I am happy to be there, they just should not blame me if they get bored.

I have raced against minor pros and national champions, both on the road and on the dirt. I have never beaten any of them, but liked it because it was a challenge. I raced a triathlon in Switzerland once and the Aussie olympic team turned up. They took places 1, 2 and 4. The guy who got third was absolutely delighted, and I am pretty sure he would not have been as happy if he had got first without some olympians to race against. The guy who got 5th also seemed pretty content.

If you are racing for the money, well then get a bit faster and beat the pros. If you are looking to establish your name so you can move up into the pro ranks, beating a pro is a pretty good way to do it. And if you are doing it for the challenge, well then accept the challenge. So I say, let them race.
 
Jul 30, 2009
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online-rider said:
OK So I'm ****ing against the tide here, but I agree with the OP. If an organiser wants to invite a pro : why not? It's exciting for the domestic riders, the fans, it's positive for the pros to support grass roots cycling. And the Protour calendar is so ****** up nowadays I don't blame the pros for wanting to find some decent racing elsewhere.
This is yet another example of the UCI screwing things up to the detriment of everybody - Other examples being:
-a requirement for all officials cars to have electric sunroofs in UCI races
-the decision to drop the Individual pursuit in favour of the omnium
-the decision to accept bribes from Lance Armstrong
-the decision to make protour races obligatory, forcing poor teams to fly their riders to Australia, Canada and god knows where next, every season!
-the decision to allow the SAG to hold a protour race, in fücking January.
-the decision to allow certain riders to dope without consequence and others to get banned
-The decisoin to give Iran 6 riders at the Mens Worlds RR while Britain,New Zealand and Luxembourg have just 3
........I'll stop there, reluctantly!

Hit the nail on the head there.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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TeamSkyFans said:
so levi wont be able to go and beat up on cat 1's and domestic riders at gila anymore..

i guess one argument could be that the likes of levi and lance at domestic races brings in crowds, but doesnt do anything for the racing.

personally im in favour of them not being able to ride, but then again, i dont really know the american scene.

Then why open your mealy mouth?
 
I'm in the "organiser decides" camp too. The thing should be a spectacle first, two-fingers to Fat Pat second and "fair to locals" third.

Where I come from, the level of the "locals" is not so different anyway.

I'm also really shocked that Iran has 6 riders. Thanks to online-rider for that info. It's extraordinary.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Hopefully, the lack of names won't cause some of these races to fold.

Others keep wanting people in the US to watch cycling for the beauty of the sport. But there simply aren't a large number of fans like that here. People show up to see names. People who normally wouldn't care about cycling might show up if Lance or Levi is racing. But many won't show up for just domestic teams with riders they've never heard of.

And if not enough fans watch... these races disappear. They've been disappearing consistently over the last 5 years... and this doesn't help. The cost of becoming a UCI event makes it impossible to win... races like Missouri and Georgia go brke as a UCI event due to the fees... but can't survive without the top riders as a non-UCI event.

Yes, I know these guys are racing well below their league. But those other riders would rather have the race be there with someone like Levi riding then have the race go away.
 
Jul 6, 2009
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TourLeTour said:
I think I am with the minority here, but I have no problem with pros turning up to any race they want. I am not the fastest guy around, but every now and then I win my grade (usually not the highest in the race). If I was in the top grade for a race, I would want to race against whoever turned up. That is the point of racing. I am happy to be there, they just should not blame me if they get bored.

I have raced against minor pros and national champions, both on the road and on the dirt. I have never beaten any of them, but liked it because it was a challenge. I raced a triathlon in Switzerland once and the Aussie olympic team turned up. They took places 1, 2 and 4. The guy who got third was absolutely delighted, and I am pretty sure he would not have been as happy if he had got first without some olympians to race against. The guy who got 5th also seemed pretty content.

If you are racing for the money, well then get a bit faster and beat the pros. If you are looking to establish your name so you can move up into the pro ranks, beating a pro is a pretty good way to do it. And if you are doing it for the challenge, well then accept the challenge. So I say, let them race.

out here in socal you race in your category exclusively but on fast training rides there are local and euro pros frequently its nice when you finish with or ahead of known strong riders. its shows you that there a bit better but not by a huge margin the gaps are not nearly as big as you would think. as for itt i have compared my times on the same course as pros at san dimas i always beat some none of the good guys though lol. then again the winning tt for cat 3 will be often times a fourth place in the pros. the cat 5 winner will be a mid pack pro time. people on the lower levels are training better than a few years ago the times have improved. then there are those masters guys i dont know about them.:confused:
 
Apr 23, 2010
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ingsve said:
Out of curiosity, why doesn't the UCI recognize criteriums at all? Are they afraid that all races that don't have a 100 year history will disappear in favor of cheaper crit events? I guess it would be very boring if every stage race had mostly crits on every stage.

I can't say why the UCI doesn't recognize them but I know that I hate them. I've been a cycling fan for many years and I'm an American but I've never been a fan of American cycling mostly because of all the crits. They're boring mindless circuits--like NASCAR but without the horsepower and energy.
 
Jun 15, 2010
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I don.'t understand why the UCI won't allow crit's in stage races.They seem to allow it in Langkawi and I think tour of Britain has had them before. Gila is big enough to be UCI though.Both sides are playing politics as usual
 
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Anonymous

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TRDean said:
Then why open your mealy mouth?

or why open yours, at least i had something to say other than insults. Is that the sort of thing you would say to someone in real life or just when you are hiding behind your computer screen. Numpty.

My point was i dont think riders like Levi should be able to beat up on the domestic riders in gila etc, but that is just my opinion, not knowing the local scene it could be that the riders enjoy having top pro's to compete against.

It was an opinion, with a point that my opinion was purely that and not particularly informed.

sometimes its really hard to follow the forum rules of respecting other posters and remaining polite to them.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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TeamSkyFans said:
or why open yours, at least i had something to say other than insults. Is that the sort of thing you would say to someone in real life or just when you are hiding behind your computer screen. Numpty.

My point was i dont think riders like Levi should be able to beat up on the domestic riders in gila etc, but that is just my opinion, not knowing the local scene it could be that the riders enjoy having top pro's to compete against.

It was an opinion, with a point that my opinion was purely that and not particularly informed.

sometimes its really hard to follow the forum rules of respecting other posters and remaining polite to them.

It's not really about the competition, it's about the UCI getting money.

Apparently, Gila will be a UCI 2.2 race next year and Utah a 2.1. They are having to do this in order to keep bringing in riders that will get enough fan interest to keep the events economically viable.

But they have to spend a lot to GET that license. We'll see if they can do it... or if they die like the Tour of Georgia and Tour of Missouri did when they tried to step up like that.


That's the catch-22 for US cycling.

They need some bigger names to get fan interest to make the race work financially.

The UCI doesn't want to let them have those names without the races paying them a license fee.

The license fee is financially tough enough to make it so the race won't work even WITH the bigger name riders.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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online-rider said:
-The decisoin to give Iran 6 riders at the Mens Worlds RR while Britain,New Zealand and Luxembourg have just 3

That can't be right, can it? How the heck did Iran get so high in national ranking?

Also for Luxembourg it doesn't really matter - two years ago they were ranked one spot higher and got to take 9 riders instead of 3, so they just threw everyone in they could find, even complete amateurs. So then last year they decided to only take 4 even though they could have taken 9 again :D
 
Mar 18, 2009
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TeamSkyFans said:
or why open yours, at least i had something to say other than insults. Is that the sort of thing you would say to someone in real life or just when you are hiding behind your computer screen. Numpty.

My point was i dont think riders like Levi should be able to beat up on the domestic riders in gila etc, but that is just my opinion, not knowing the local scene it could be that the riders enjoy having top pro's to compete against.

It was an opinion, with a point that my opinion was purely that and not particularly informed.

sometimes its really hard to follow the forum rules of respecting other posters and remaining polite to them.

Just saying..."I don't know...but here is my opinion" is asking for backlash. KurtinSC is exactly spot on here.

And screw your "polite" garbage...I've been practically hung for some of my opinions on here...so toughen up!
 
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Anonymous

Guest
TRDean said:
Just saying..."I don't know...but here is my opinion" is asking for backlash. KurtinSC is exactly spot on here.

And screw your "polite" garbage...I've been practically hung for some of my opinions on here...so toughen up!

;) no worries...
 
Christian said:
That can't be right, can it? How the heck did Iran get so high in national ranking?

Also for Luxembourg it doesn't really matter - two years ago they were ranked one spot higher and got to take 9 riders instead of 3, so they just threw everyone in they could find, even complete amateurs. So then last year they decided to only take 4 even though they could have taken 9 again :D

Win your Continental rankings, get 6 riders. Iran are by far the strongest nation in the UCI Asia Tour, because the only other countries inside the UCI's definition of Asia who have any real strength in the cycling world are Australia and New Zealand, and all their guys are in the ProTour or racing in Europe Tour or America Tour events and not scoring points for their country in the Asia Tour. You'd need Subway-Avanti going ProContinental or going to all of those races in the Middle East and China in order to keep up with the Azad University Iran and Tabriz Petrochemical guys - they've got some pretty mean cyclists.
 
Feb 18, 2010
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L'arriviste said:
I'm also really shocked that Iran has 6 riders. Thanks to online-rider for that info. It's extraordinary.

Christian said:
That can't be right, can it? How the heck did Iran get so high in national ranking?

Tabriz Petrochemical Cycling Team rules the Asian Continental scene. They're 35th in the CQ world team ranking too (that's higher than Flaminia, CajaSur, FlyV etcetera etcetera). With a 16 men squad they've got 67 podium spots, including ones in .HC events such as Qinghai Lake and Langkawi. There's more Iranians at their other Iran-registered squad - Azad University Iran - too. As a result, Iran is quite comfortably first in the Asia tour with 2005 points. Japan in second has 819.


Libertine Seguros said:
because the only other countries inside the UCI's definition of Asia who have any real strength in the cycling world are Australia and New Zealand,

Actually, Australia and New Zealand are part of the Oceania Tour, which consists of ... Australia and New Zealand.