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No testing for bio passport

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Jul 28, 2009
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Merckx index said:
Meanwhile, the elephant in the living room goes unremarked upon--even by the elephant's trainer himself:
I think you're overdramatising the situation. I don't think anyone in the area considers the current methodology of the BioPassport to be some kind of magic bullet. Everyone acknowledges the advantages of Hbmass, I don't think they are leaving it unremarked, it's just irrelevant to questions of the frequency of testing under the current methodology.

The Biopassport is a big cultural change and it's hardly surprising that some practical compromises have been in it's implementation. As I understand it some people to use Hbmass already for example I have heard that Sassi was using it at Mapei which seems pretty sensible if you are thinking of taking on the likes of Basso and Ricco and don't want them making a fool of you.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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Problem scope

JMBeaushrimp said:
Great info, thanks!

So, the BioPass doesn't flag rhEPO use, but there's a way to prove autoinfusion based on Hbmass? Interesting since the chatter keeps chirping about how everyone is now autoinfusing and only micro-dosing EPO...

It seems that the UCI likes to allow for some big loopholes in their noose (although that may just be my own paranoia coming out).
That's your paranoia, it's a challenging problem, the people actually working on anti doping tests aren't dumb.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Moving on..... (lets try to remove all bias regarding Cadel Evans out and focus on the topic of the bio passport)....

@sniper and damiano M. Both of you guys make (some) worthy arguments and some of what you have written I agree with 100%. In particular, you have written that we should remain cautious or skeptical about the effectiveness of the bio passport. You are certainly not alone in this opinion and the creators of the bio passport itself have expressed their doubts regarding its effectiveness.

velonews said:
&#8220]http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4723/Bio-passport-experts-worried-some-riders-are-side-stepping-controls.aspx#ixzz1Um5Iz5Jg[/url]
Above Merckx index posted links to the research by Ashenden which illustrates that it can still be beaten using microdosing. Its not really an elephant though as Merckx index suggests because it is being discussed in the public domain by the authors themselves.

However, you guys need to understand that the bio passport is an ongoing process and uses an adaptive model to gradually improve its effectiveness over time. More recently Schumacher has published data that shows transfusions can be detected using the bio passport model....

Detection of autologous blood doping with adaptively evaluated biomarkers of doping: a longitudinal blinded study.
Pottgiesser T, Sottas PE, Echteler T, Robinson N, Umhau M, Schumacher YO.

This investigation provides evidence that the adaptive model allows detection of autologous blood transfusions with a good sensitivity. An intelligent testing approach and the adherence to World Anti-Doping Agency's ABP operating guidelines are nevertheless determinant in the success.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21382045
.....and Ashenden, Parisotto and Schumacher have gone on record stating that they believe progress is being made.....

According to Ashenden, he has seen some profiles which are suggestive that manipulation is taking place, but that the levels involved are not pronounced enough for sanctions to be applied.

Fortunately, Yorck Olaf Schumacher believes that the controls are at least reducing the advantage that unscrupulous riders can gain.

“You will never catch all the cheats for sure but the door is narrowing,” he said. “It’s becoming more and more difficult to squeeze through.”

Robin Parisotto, who is also part of the bio-passport committee, thinks that progress is being made, but that it is important to keep the pressure on, and continue to perfect anti-doping methods.

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4723/Bio-passport-experts-worried-some-riders-are-side-stepping-controls.aspx#ixzz1Um39kYlv
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4723/Bio-passport-experts-worried-some-riders-are-side-stepping-controls.aspx
Now lets look at the raw undisputable facts. In 2011.... this year.... Franco Pellizotti and Pietro Caucchioli were found guilty.....

My logic is as follows. I have no access to the direct raw data so I'll dispense with pure speculation and heresay but put my faith in the experts that are in the best position to be making informed comments. It is as simple as that. If those guys reckon progress is being made and it is getting harder to obtain a performance advantage from blood doping then its good enough for me. It obviously isn't for you but the difference between me and you is that I know them personally and I can testify to their honesty and integrity.

IMO based on the above facts and the testimony of the experts, one cannot say that the bio passport is completely useless. It has reduced the incidence of abnormal blood profiles and it has caught 2 riders so far. The point of anti-doping testing is not to catch ALL the cheats, it is to provide a deterrent to doping in the first place.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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rata de sentina said:
The Biopassport is a big cultural change and it's hardly surprising that some practical compromises have been in it's implementation. As I understand it some people to use Hbmass already for example I have heard that Sassi was using it at Mapei which seems pretty sensible if you are thinking of taking on the likes of Basso and Ricco and don't want them making a fool of you.
This is correct, the Mapei lab does measure Hbmass of their riders and this is perhaps some of the strongest evidence of all that Evans, Basso, Cunego and now Ricco are likely to be clean.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Ok, this caught my eye.

Krebs cycle said:
<snipped for brevity>
There are many other people that have access to the data and those people (some of whom I know personally) would not allow false data to be published without being called out on it. And besides, a quick background check on Zorzoli shows that this is a man who was even willing to sacrifice his position at the UCI by leaking data that would damage the reputation of the UCI, so I hardly think he is the kind of person who sucks it up and does whatever the UCI tells him to.
What did Zorzoli leak?
 
May 23, 2011
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Krebs cycle said:
This is correct, the Mapei lab does measure Hbmass of their riders and this is perhaps some of the strongest evidence of all that Evans, Basso, Cunego and now Ricco are likely to be clean.
Ricco! Oh, come on. Some people will believe anything. Ricco could be handcuffed to Ashenden twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week and he would still find a way to dope. He would slip Ashenden a mickey then dip his junk in a bucket of testosterone gel while mainlining a liter of cheetah blood.

Cunego is legit. I know that because I am a fan of his.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Damiano Machiavelli said:
Ricco! Oh, come on. Some people will believe anything. Ricco could be handcuffed to Ashenden twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week and he would still find a way to dope. He would slip Ashenden a mickey then dip his junk in a bucket of testosterone gel while mainlining a liter of cheetah blood.

Cunego is legit. I know that because I am a fan of his.
lol oh come on now DM, surely I am allowed to poke some fun at you here!!

Cunego is clean because you are a fan of his but Cadel isn't because he beat your guy? Really, is that your proof?

dude you so need to get yourself one of these t-shirts...

 
Jun 19, 2009
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Krebs cycle said:
McQuaid confirms Zorzoli as UCI source of Armstrong documents

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-confirms-zorzoli-as-uci-source-of-armstrong-documents

Oh the irony of it all :D
Hmmm, ok - I thought that was the 'leak' you may have been referring to.

Zorzoli did not leak that information - as McQuaid says in the link you provided:
"The guy [Ressiot] was supposedly writing a particular story about (Armstrong) riding clean, so we knew the grounds on which he came here [to UCI headquarters]. It wasn't just us," McQuaid continued, "but it was also Lance Armstrong and his people who helped him."
So, no - Zorzoli was not as you put it "a man who was even willing to sacrifice his position at the UCI by leaking data that would damage the reputation of the UCI" - the only thing Zorzoli did wrong was to give more than one form.
 
May 23, 2011
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Krebs cycle said:
lol oh come on now DM, surely I am allowed to poke some fun at you here!!

Cunego is clean because you are a fan of his but Cadel isn't because he beat your guy? Really, is that your proof?
Does this forum need pink text for sarcastic remarks or what? I always thought that cyclists were a lot smarter than the typical type-A humorless triathlete, but maybe Slowtwitch is onto something.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Hmmm, ok - I thought that was the 'leak' you may have been referring to.

Zorzoli did not leak that information - as McQuaid says in the link you provided:


So, no - Zorzoli was not as you put it "a man who was even willing to sacrifice his position at the UCI by leaking data that would damage the reputation of the UCI" - the only thing Zorzoli did wrong was to give more than one form.
ok my mistake, you'll note I said it was only a "quick" check. Regardless, it makes no difference to the fact there is absolutely not a single shred of evidence anywhere to support the implication that the data he published is false.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Damiano Machiavelli said:
Does this forum need pink text for sarcastic remarks or what? I always thought that cyclists were a lot smarter than the typical type-A humorless triathlete, but maybe Slowtwitch is onto something.
I thought you were being funny, that's why I "lol'ed" and poked fun at you :)

anyway this has all been very entertaining but sh!t, I really have to stop wasting time and get back to work. hazzaa
 
May 26, 2010
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JMBeaushrimp said:
Great info, thanks!

So, the BioPass doesn't flag rhEPO use, but there's a way to prove autoinfusion based on Hbmass? Interesting since the chatter keeps chirping about how everyone is now autoinfusing and only micro-dosing EPO...

It seems that the UCI likes to allow for some big loopholes in their noose (although that may just be my own paranoia coming out).
has is not always been thus?

It would be interesting to know what the teams who supposedly have internal testing are measuring for?

No point in asking them, we'll only get an A4 page waved in front of a camera:rolleyes:
 

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