Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

[Libertine Seguros]

Bjørgen wasn't at the Tour de Ski in 2011, so those times must be 2012, no?

Also, Johaug put way more than 11 seconds into Kowalczyk that day in 2011. She started the Alpe Cermis stage at 3'29 and crossed the line at 1'21. At the timecheck at 5,6km (so roughly the start of the climb) she was at 2'35, so that would suggest Johaug climbed the Alpe 1'14 quicker than Kowalczyk in 2011.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XqiJIUSu48&list=HL1357240047 (part 1 of 3)

At the same time, that year Kowalczyk had an almost impregnable advantage by the time they got to that stage, while Johaug in 5th was almost inevitably going to pass Majdic on the climb and with Folis and Longa both well within her reach. Similarly you could argue that last year Kowalczyk raced the Alpe harder with the race on the line, while Johaug had nothing to race for. So it's hard to tell what the time gap would be if both were going full gas because we don't know if Kowalczyk went as hard as possible in 2011 or if Johaug went as hard as possible in 2012.

 

[meat puppet]

Right. I'll blame this tag:

Posted by Jan Kocbach, 09 Jan 2011@13:19

Excellent reception they got on that crystal ball, then.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Lower down the page they link to the 2011 results. They don't have isolated climb times for 2011 however, only the stage times. Here they are:



Stage results:
1 5 3425301 JOHAUG Therese NOR 33:14.4
2 12 3425117 ELDEN Marte NOR 34:14.8
3 9 3425349 KRISTOFFERSEN Marthe NOR 35:08.3
4 1 3435001 KOWALCZYK Justyna POL 35:13.7
5 21 1142563 SHEVCHENKO Valentina UKR 35:21.2
6 8 3185256 LAHTEENMAKI Krista FIN 35:27.1
7 14 1247226 ZELLER Katrin GER 35:35.2
8 19 3505003 RYDQVIST Maria SWE 35:40.6
9 2 1222200 LONGA Marianna ITA 35:46.1
10 10 3425183 JACOBSEN Astrid Uhrenholdt NOR 35:56.4

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Over in the biathlon, Martin Fourcade's injury is apparently not as bad as feared; he's done a bit of skiing on it in Oberhof and will make a decision on Saturday morning as to whether to start the sprint; I assume this means he will be entered in it and then will make the call himself afterward. If the trails are anything like they were in today's women's relay however, he may think twice about risking it since there were many falls. Ukraine won in a good race, thanks mainly to Olena Pidhrushna's performance, easily the best on leg 3, while France shot well and will rue their lack of ski speed; Anaïs Bescond was pretty decent and Sophie Boilley ok, but Brunet's lack of speed (even taking into account that she crashed) will be a worry for the team. Germany on the other hand were better on the skis but lost far too much in the range - although this season's version of Tina Bachmann and Franzi Hildebrand are hardly ace skaters, and the team's race more or less represented the form of Miri Gößner, skiing rings around everyone, then skiing rings around the penalty loop while everyone else headed for the finish. Apparently she had a problem with her sights at the stand though, which mitigates her somewhat, especially after she shot 5/5 from prone (which will bring those 'new Neuner' calls back into play yet again, of course). Hilde Fenne couldn't duplicate the magic of Hochfilzen, while Darya Domracheva set the fastest leg time for the fourth leg, only for it to be rendered irrelevant by surprisingly poor shooting from the Belarusian team before her; poor shooting from Dubarezava and uncharacteristically similarly poor shooting from Kalin'chik rendered anything Dasha and Skardino could manage irrelevant, unusual from a team that has usually been able to use strong shooting to overcome weak skiing and place themselves at least somewhere reasonable for Domracheva to fight for results from on leg 4. Intriguingly, Krystyna Palka set the best course time for the first leg, although few names of any great pace went on leg 1, while Sophie Boilley was 6" off being the fastest on her leg, although Pidhrushna shot faster and more accurately as well as skiing that little bit faster. No surprises with Gößner and Domracheva being the fastest on their legs, Domracheva by 45 seconds - suggesting she may well be on her way back to her best after a patchy start to the season. And if she is, then trails had better beware, cos she'll eat them up.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Today's Tour de SKi stage is really od.
I mean 3 and 5km, really? Don't see the deeper sense of thi stage at all. If it was a prologue ok, but at this point in time
I have to say the distances the women go are quiet of a joke anyway. I mean yesterday#s satge. Men 35km, women 15km. Come on. They earn the same price money, so why have those ridiclously short stages all the time. Why couldn't they have done 25km yesterday?

 

[ppxaoi]

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[ppxaoi]

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[ppxaoi]

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[ppxaoi]

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[ppxaoi]

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[maltiv]

Today's Tour de SKi stage is really od.
I mean 3 and 5km, really? Don't see the deeper sense of thi stage at all. If it was a prologue ok, but at this point in time
I have to say the distances the women go are quiet of a joke anyway. I mean yesterday#s satge. Men 35km, women 15km. Come on. They earn the same price money, so why have those ridiclously short stages all the time. Why couldn't they have done 25km yesterday?

Agree. In general, the distances in TDS are way too short, not only for women. In total, the men go 90 km over the course of 9 days. That's a whopping 10 km average per day. Most people do a lot more than that when on winter holidays

For the women, every race is basically a sprint. Which is why Kowalczyk and Bjørgen are so dominant. Real skiers like Johaug and Steira would be a lot closer if they had some long races.

 

[jens_attacks]

epic ride by grande poltoranin _O_

good day for us the astana fans, that was one for the history books.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Agree. In general, the distances in TDS are way too short, not only for women. In total, the men go 90 km over the course of 9 days. That's a whopping 10 km average per day. Most people do a lot more than that when on winter holidays

For the women, every race is basically a sprint. Which is why Kowalczyk and Bjørgen are so dominant. Real skiers like Johaug and Steira would be a lot closer if they had some long races.

Totally agree.
Even that final climb is not really all that difficult.
After all it's only 20 minutes of climbing.
I guess they are doing this to be attractive to the broad audience who are not really into cross country skking. Personally, i don't like this at all.
Tomorrow they have 10 and 15km mass sstarts. Seriously, this is somewhat pathetic.
Mass start races only make sense if the thea are of decent distance.
Otherwise, they highly favor the short distance sprint type guys.
If they are continuing like this, they 'll totally destroy cross country skiing as we once knew it

 

[Bavarianrider]

epic ride by grande poltoranin _O_

good day for us the astana fans, that was one for the history books.

Great race, finally he showed his potential!

 

[jsem94]

Poltoranin - epic.

 

[meat puppet]

Agree with maltiv and bavarian: the endurance side of things is downplayed too much imo. Sure, there are anaerobic efforts on every leg, but even so the distances are not overwhelming. No question in my mind, the athletes can recover from that - and more

Anyway, ditch the sprints, double up all distances for men and multiply by 1,5 for the ladies, and perhaps add 2-3 stages. Find wider ie more GC friendly tracks if possible for the races that go from A to B. And race more from A to B. Also the Alpe is borderline over the top towards the circus side of things. Way worse than Angliru or Zoncolan IMO. A more skiable or less steep climb could be obtained too, I assume. Wouldn't surprise me if Libertine could name one right away.

The race is enjoyable, but to me the bottom line is this: Isn't the Tour supposed to offer something different from the WC to begin with? The Alpe and Men's long leg are something, but they fall up short IMO. Too much same old same old for my liking.

Yet, if the goal is to produce just that, then they're doing a good job I guess.

 

[jsem94]

The Tour this year is shorter too, to accommodate riders who want to race the World Championships later. It therefore couldn't be too hard.

 

[meat puppet]

I know that that's the argument, but don't necessarily agree. First, the Worlds are 1,5-2 months away, so there is time to recover. It's a bit like Vuelta and the Worlds, only the Tour is shorter and the skiing Worlds are longer, and the recovery time is (or, can be made) much longer.

Anyway, I guess this boils down to the opinion that to me the concept of aiming to peak for a couple races only per season is a bit funny, alienated even if you will. Not sayin it's not the correct thing to do. Of course the game is brutal and any advantage should be sought, so it all makes perfect sense from the athletes' POV to perhaps treat the tour as a 2nd priority.. Feel free to disagree, this is just a weekend warrior talking.

Nonetheless, the tour would fit in between the long distance races and normal WC circuit if it was made a bit harder. The athletes must choose their priorities anyhow. Maybe the more endurance driven skiers would take it as their no 1 goal.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Agree. In general, the distances in TDS are way too short, not only for women. In total, the men go 90 km over the course of 9 days. That's a whopping 10 km average per day. Most people do a lot more than that when on winter holidays

For the women, every race is basically a sprint. Which is why Kowalczyk and Bjørgen are so dominant. Real skiers like Johaug and Steira would be a lot closer if they had some long races.

This is the problem with the sprint being so popular and overused on the calendar - you weight things too far in favour of powerhouse athletes and limit the potential field of winners. And as long as races of short distance and carnival freak show sprints predominate on the calendar, then there's little reason to BE a real skier like a Johaug or a Steira. Why would you waste your time when you can win way more and make way more money being Scott Steiner on skis?

If we are going to accept that the sprint circus is here to stay, then we shouldn't be marginalising the endurance events, because they're what give the Tour variety. Rather than homologising the courses so that the races produce similar spectacle every time (which creates a handful of marketable names but reduces depth and makes the spectacle a bit boring) they should embrace the variety.

The sprints should be an occasional circus. I don't find the Alpe as worrisome for the sport as I do the proliferation of sprints, because as things stand the Alpe, gimmickry though it is, is a one-off event. Are there any other similar events with real pro competition? Maybe the Lysebotn Opp, but that's an off-season rollerski race. However, if there weren't so many sprints there wouldn't be the need to create such an extreme gimmicked event as the Alpe to counterbalance it. Shortening all the events and going for broke on the gimmickry with stupid over-the-top bonuses for short sprints and super steep finales? It's like Unipublic have taken over the FIS.

 

[ToreBear]

i agree with these observations.

also, if i got the whiff of the norwegian media reporting on petter's preparation focus for THIS tds, he was de-emphesizing the importance of opening stages and concentrating on his endurance for the final stages...

my comment was not to belittle northug's classic proficiency (his record speaks for itself) but to point that his competitors (including this tour's only classic race so far) seem to have found an antidote to petter's tactics. i also had in mind legkov's win in the last year tds short classic tt. it seems the competitors are aware of petter's vintage tactic of hanging on with the best to only outsprint them at the end.

we shall see a lot in just few hours

Don't worry no belittleing detected. The tactic of keeping high power over a long time might have worked 2-3 years ago. Not anymore. If Petter is in good shape with competitive skis I have trouble seeing anyone doing that. He is one of the strongest in interval starts at the moment.

One concern with Petter is his ability to maintain the same style for a long time like in thursdays race. He needs to be able to alternate the tecnique he uses more often than say Dario and Hellner when on skate 3. This is no problem in most courses, but in the Cortina-Toblach race it can be a bit too much for him.

However tomorrows mass start in val de fiemme in classic style could give the Russians an oppurtunity to shake him off with bicycle tactics. I don't think it will work, but if he has a bad day and they are having good days it might work.

 

[ToreBear]

This is the problem with the sprint being so popular and overused on the calendar - you weight things too far in favour of powerhouse athletes and limit the potential field of winners. And as long as races of short distance and carnival freak show sprints predominate on the calendar, then there's little reason to BE a real skier like a Johaug or a Steira. Why would you waste your time when you can win way more and make way more money being Scott Steiner on skis?

If we are going to accept that the sprint circus is here to stay, then we shouldn't be marginalising the endurance events, because they're what give the Tour variety. Rather than homologising the courses so that the races produce similar spectacle every time (which creates a handful of marketable names but reduces depth and makes the spectacle a bit boring) they should embrace the variety.

The sprints should be an occasional circus. I don't find the Alpe as worrisome for the sport as I do the proliferation of sprints, because as things stand the Alpe, gimmickry though it is, is a one-off event. Are there any other similar events with real pro competition? Maybe the Lysebotn Opp, but that's an off-season rollerski race. However, if there weren't so many sprints there wouldn't be the need to create such an extreme gimmicked event as the Alpe to counterbalance it. Shortening all the events and going for broke on the gimmickry with stupid over-the-top bonuses for short sprints and super steep finales? It's like Unipublic have taken over the FIS.

Remember that the sprints usually don't displace the longer races. Only a few skiers focus on both the distance and the sprint cup.

Also the sprints are a great way to introduce young skiers to the world cup level before they have the capacity for the distance races. Also it might give more nations and atletes a chance to show themselves.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Remember that the sprints usually don't displace the longer races. Only a few skiers focus on both the distance and the sprint cup.

Also the sprints are a great way to introduce young skiers to the world cup level before they have the capacity for the distance races. Also it might give more nations and atletes a chance to show themselves.

80km crits are a great way to introduce young cyclists to the top level before they have the capacity for the tough classics and mountain stages, but I would still be mortified if they included an 80km crit in every World Tour stage race.

Maybe I'm just an élitist (it wouldn't be the first time), but I don't think they should be worth the same as proper field races, whether mass start or individual start, and as I said before, I look at them in the same way that I look at the Veltins-Arena biathlon races. A sometimes entertaining diversion, but nothing more. Also, that they've been popular has a knock-on effect on the arranging of the rest of the calendar with real endurance events seemingly decreasing in number and too many short "distance" races.

 

[zapata]

80km crits are a great way to introduce young cyclists to the top level before they have the capacity for the tough classics and mountain stages, but I would still be mortified if they included an 80km crit in every World Tour stage race.

Maybe I'm just an élitist (it wouldn't be the first time), but I don't think they should be worth the same as proper field races, whether mass start or individual start, and as I said before, I look at them in the same way that I look at the Veltins-Arena biathlon races. A sometimes entertaining diversion, but nothing more. Also, that they've been popular has a knock-on effect on the arranging of the rest of the calendar with real endurance events seemingly decreasing in number and too many short "distance" races.

That's how you should look at the entire Tour de Ski. Really, it's just one big gimmick. I thought it might get better with time, but it seems it's rather getting worse every year. If you take it for what it is, though, some of the individual stages might be entertaining in themselves, but I shudder to think that someone might believe this to be the pinnacle of the sport.

And the name is the dumbest thing in the history of organized sports.

 

[zapata]

Agree. In general, the distances in TDS are way too short, not only for women. In total, the men go 90 km over the course of 9 days. That's a whopping 10 km average per day. Most people do a lot more than that when on winter holidays

For the women, every race is basically a sprint. Which is why Kowalczyk and Bjørgen are so dominant. Real skiers like Johaug and Steira would be a lot closer if they had some long races.

With two restdays, even. Ridiculous. Like having two restdays in tirreno adriatico, and 40 km stages.

 

[maltiv]

With two restdays, even. Ridiculous. Like having two restdays in tirreno adriatico, and 40 km stages.

And yet the Norwegians think they have to eat all the time...I remember watching a report on how much Northug eats during Tour de Ski, it's just ridiculous. Last year he complained that he had put on so many kilos during the Tour de Ski, but obviously that's going to happen when he eats as if he's riding the goddamn TDF when what he's actually doing is training an average of about 25 minutes a day! Hard or not - that's not going to burn enough calories to justify eating such huge amounts. It's like they haven't actually understood how friggin easy this race is - they're basically training a whole lot less than they would have when not racing.