observations of John Hoberman

[Deagol]

Really detailed and extensive article over at Velonews about history of doping and observations of John Hoberman here

 

[The Hitch]

Came accross hoberman when one of the bbc radio stations interviewed him the day after armstrong skipped arbitration. Was really impressed with what he said, as he went into very impressive detail as to the history of doping in cycling, and doping today.

Also said he comes into evidence that top cyclists and.athletes.today are still doping, and didnt sound like he was talking about Frank Schleck and Yohann Ofredo.

Someone also responded to me in the thread where i asked about him with this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18451131

"This is not a prescription for drug-free sport," says John Hoberman, a historian at the University of Texas who has written extensively about doping in sport.

"The activity itself has become pharma-dependent. And the idea that the best-intentioned people at the World Anti-doping Agency are going to make this go away is a dream."

 

[mewmewmew13]

Came accross hoberman when one of the bbc radio stations interviewed him the day after armstrong skipped arbitration. Was really impressed with what he said, as he went into very impressive detail as to the history of doping in cycling, and doping today.

Also said he comes into evidence that top cyclists and.athletes.today are still doping, and didnt sound like he was talking about Frank Schleck and Yohann Ofredo.

Someone also responded to me in the thread where i asked about him with this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18451131

Very interesting comment Hitchey.
I'm afraid he may be correct.

The reward for winning via cheating has not been taken away...increasing the testing, punishments, etc will slow some but agree that the determined cheaters will continue.

Sad comment on our society but in all sports I can't see them becoming 'clean'.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Ugh!! That BBC article is pretty terrible. Funny how there's no mention about the UCI's role in enabling the doping. No mention of the great potential for back-dated testing either.

I'm stunned the head honchos at VN permitted it to be published. Seriously.

I see a Pat McQuaid interview coming real soon that personally attacks Hoberman. "not credible" "bitter"

 

[sniper]

Came accross hoberman when one of the bbc radio stations interviewed him the day after armstrong skipped arbitration. Was really impressed with what he said, as he went into very impressive detail as to the history of doping in cycling, and doping today.

Also said he comes into evidence that top cyclists and.athletes.today are still doping, and didnt sound like he was talking about Frank Schleck and Yohann Ofredo.

Someone also responded to me in the thread where i asked about him with this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18451131

straight after the bit you quote it gets more spot on still:

Anti-doping rules and testing may not have driven drugs from sport. But they do encourage false-positive results, stigmatise the "bad apple" athletes who are caught, and tilt the playing field toward the best-financed athletes and teams that can afford the best doctors, critics say.

The anti-doping climate creates a lucrative market for skilled doping doctors who can help high-level athletes avoid detection.

"There will always be a market for the smart doctor, and the harder on drugs you become the more the smart doctor will gain," says Verner Moller, professor of sport and body culture at Aarhus University in Denmark.

"His market value will improve with the improvement of the anti-doping system. The harder it is to beat the doping system, the more interest there will be in the ability to circumvent this."

Doping testing encourages athletes and their medical teams to experiment with drugs that are untried or unauthorised for use on humans, and to buy drugs where their manufacture is not subject to regulatory oversight, critics say.

"We are living in a world that is constantly developing new and efficient doping," says Moller.

 

[ebandit]

do the drugs work?

against a background where so many reach for drugs to exist in the day to

day there is a thinking that to perform at a high level in cycling drugs are

absolutely necesary

legitimate medical staff are a part of all pro cycling teams ...............and

hidden away?

real change is a long way off ...........greater testing can only help in the

short term to achieve clean cycling riders must have desire to ride clean

and sponsors must be completely unwilling to be associated with tarnished

teams or riders

i hope to see an end to apologists defending sanctioned riders

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Funny how there's no mention about the UCI's role in enabling the doping. No mention of the great potential for back-dated testing either.

Another doping apologist over at velonews. It is UCI propaganda to do nothing. Period.

Serious question, did you actually read all 4 pages of the VN article?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Serious question, did you actually read all 4 pages of the VN article?

I didn't as VN's history of protecting the UCI lead me to believe it would be more junk. Now that I DID read it, I'm going outside to see if gravity works backwards.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I didn't as VN's history of protecting the UCI lead me to believe it would be more junk. Now that I DID read it, I'm going outside to see if gravity works backwards.

I know, its actually the second time that they have interviewed him. And like yourself I was quite amazed it was VN. I switched my pc on and off, did a reboot etc.

Dr. Hoberman is the bomb. I don't think there is anyone who can touch his knowledge and expertise on all the issues.
Actually, he is the one that gave the CCN credibility, so its amusing to see him asked if he thought they were credible.

 

[sniper]

I remember when discussing the Contador/Saxo visit to Israel, couple of posters claiming how CAS was without a shadow of a doubt impartial, unbribable, integer, etc.

guess again guys.

As CAS president, he might seem like a logical choice for the role; one would like to assume that anyone who has ascended to the top of CAS must be a person of integrity. But here is where we must begin the process of looking past respectable appearances and look directly at some of the unpleasant facts

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The guy does not talk poop. Well informed. IOC, UCI, FIFA, UEFA, all the same mtf's.

 

[sniper]

The guy does not talk poop. Well informed. IOC, UCI, FIFA, UEFA, all the same mtf's.

ow yeah.
there is so much interesting stuff in that interview.

 

[Deagol]

I didn't as VN's history of protecting the UCI lead me to believe it would be more junk. Now that I DID read it, I'm going outside to see if gravity works backwards.

Velonews has improved in recent months IMO .....

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I remember when discussing the Contador/Saxo visit to Israel, couple of posters claiming how CAS was without a shadow of a doubt impartial, unbribable, integer, etc.

guess again guys.

Not too subtle are you sniper?

I was of those (although I would never say "without a shadow of doubt") - while Coates clearly has history, there is nothing to suggest that CAS has ever taken any bribes or been bought etc, and if Contador did he should ask for a refund.

 

[sniper]

Not too subtle are you sniper?

I was of those (although I would never say "without a shadow of doubt") - while Coates clearly has history, there is nothing to suggest that CAS has ever taken any bribes or been bought etc, and if Contador did he should ask for a refund.

you could also just say "I was wrong".
but then this is probably as much an admission as one is ever going to get from you.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

you could also just say "I was wrong".
but then this is probably as much an admission as one is ever going to get from you.

But I am not wrong.

Firstly, CAS convicted Contador.
Coates is the IOC lackey who co-ordinates CAS, but after that CAS is independent.
I also doubt I would have said what you attributed to "some people" - anyone can be corrupted, but as there are 3 people who arbitrate (with each side picking one member) then it is as safe a system as can be, and moreso there has never been any suggestion made against any CAS verdict.

Read Hobermans piece again, and this time read what it says, not your conclusions of it.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

you could also just say "I was wrong".
but then this is probably as much an admission as one is ever going to get from you.

I wonder if you had a PhD or managed a pro cycling team if people would just believe whatever it was you said.

 

[sniper]

But I am not wrong.

Firstly, CAS convicted Contador.
Coates is the IOC lackey who co-ordinates CAS, but after that CAS is independent.
I also doubt I would have said what you attributed to "some people" - anyone can be corrupted, but as there are 3 people who arbitrate (with each side picking one member) then it is as safe a system as can be, and moreso there has never been any suggestion made against any CAS verdict.

Read Hobermans piece again, and this time read what it says, not your conclusions of it.

I was ridiculed for speculating about CAS members being manipulable or at least influenceable. The data on Coates suggest it's not so far-fetched.

but after that CAS is independent.

WADA and CAS look really bad in this interview.
Knowing how heavily Coates is compromised, would you still put your hand in the fire for CAS' 'independency'? I wouldn't.
Integrity at the top there is none.
I bet some months ago nobody would have dared to claim Coates isn't fully independent.

there has never been any suggestion made against any CAS verdict.

read Hoberman: the FIFA had zero positives on four consecutive WC's, and everybody buys it. Does that make FIFA anti-doping 'independent'?

 

[robertocarlos]

"The activity itself has become pharma-dependent. And the idea that the best-intentioned people at the World Anti-doping Agency are going to make this go away is a dream."
this makes him sound believable, but now with being involved in certain movements sounds like "if i was king of the world..."

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I was ridiculed for speculating about CAS members being manipulable or at least influenceable. The data on Coates suggest it's not so far-fetched.

Kinda sorta.

You were not ridiculed because you speculated about people.
You were ridiculed because of the specific in which you suggested Saxo went to Israel and built schools because the chief arbitrator was from Israel.
And actually on reflection, I remember suggesting that if a bribe were to be done by CAS members good old cash would work better.

WADA and CAS look really bad in this interview.
Knowing how heavily Coates is compromised, would you still put your hand in the fire for CAS' 'independency'? I wouldn't.
Integrity at the top there is none.
I bet some months ago nobody would have dared to claim Coates isn't fully independent.

While I would not put my hand in the fire for any institution, CAS IMO is certainly the best way to do things and what they have been done has beyond reproach.

Again read what Hoberman says.

read Hoberman: the FIFA had zero positives on four consecutive WC's, and everybody buys it. Does that make FIFA anti-doping 'independent'?

 

[BroDeal]

I was ridiculed for speculating about CAS members being manipulable or at least influenceable. The data on Coates suggest it's not so far-fetched.

You were ridiculed for an laughable theory about how Contadar training in Israel showed that a conspiracy of Da Joos was about to fix the CAS result. I did not see anything in the Hoberman interview about the Protocols of Zion or a new addendum to it that furthers the nefarious plan by using sport stars.

 

[sniper]

vale vale. probably deserve some fresh ridicule for having brought it all up again. bad memories.

change of direction: the WADA look really terrible in that interview. Hoberman doesn't seem to be a fan.

FIFA chief medical officer Jiri Dvorak sits on WADA’s Health, Medical & Research Committee. (...) The chair of this committee is the ubiquitous Arne Ljungqvist.

Even **** Pound comes out compromised, at least wrt soccer.

So yes, cycling does seem to have been somewhat of a scapegoat. And now Hoberman suggests we use cycling as experimental ground for the fight against corruption. Must kinda hurt phat and hein, knowing what they know about the depth of corruption in other sports institutes. Good on them.

 

[arjanh]

At least it's clear why the IOC never forced the UCI to clean up its act wrt doping.

 

[DirtyWorks]

vale vale. probably deserve some fresh ridicule for having brought it all up again. bad memories.

change of direction: the WADA look really terrible in that interview. Hoberman doesn't seem to be a fan.

Even **** Pound comes out compromised, at least wrt soccer.

You are missing the point. Hoberman knows WADA is crippled by the IOC and IOC blessed sports federations. The IOC can't have guys like Richard Pound actually doing their job. WADA is crippled by the IOC to maintain the appearance of anti-doping legitimacy.

If WADA could actually do their job, most of the IOC's most recognizable sports would have lengthy lists of star athletes test positive. Tennis, Swimming, Marathon, Track and Field, Football all would suffer thereby threaten the perception of the Olympics as legitimate.

 

[sniper]

You are missing the point. Hoberman knows WADA is crippled by the IOC and IOC blessed sports federations. WADA is crippled by the IOC to maintain the appearance of anti-doping legitimacy.

If WADA could actually do their job, most of the IOC's most recognizable sports would have lengthy lists of star athletes test positive. Tennis, Swimming, Marathon, Track and Field, Football all would suffer thereby threaten the perception of the Olympics as legitimate.

true.
hence I said Pound is 'compromised', not 'corrupt'.
perhaps 'compromised' is still too negative wrt Pound, though.
Anyway, this:

WADA is crippled by the IOC

is indeed the case.

And this Ljungquist guy seems there to oversee that nobody at WADA gets overly enthusiastic in the fight against doping.