Ochowicz taking fans for idiots!

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Scott SoCal said:
Why couldn't he have said something like..." yeah, this is not really new. So far, no charges have been filed and we really don't have much new information. It would be unfair to hold them out of competition, so until such time as there is more information we are going to allow them to do their job. It's the right thing to do".

Instead he says he has not discussed the matter with either his riders or the authorities. Personally I don't believe that but perhaps that's the way he operates.
What brilliance.
 
A

Anonymous

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rhubroma said:
What brilliance.
Thanks. It took me hours to come up with that statement.

Maybe BMC should look me up to help craft their pressers. What do you think, Rhub?
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Irrelevant of what you think of Och, they shouldn't be temporarily suspended if they haven't been indicted. The italian's have dealt with this quite badly.
 
Oct 8, 2010
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fatandfast said:
Ochowicz has had the longest running pro program in the US. He can get access to cash and races that other teams can't. He rode bikes with Phinney's mom and dad before they were married. I would think any parents would want the best for their kid. Given the choices I think Och is the right decision. Be careful about the 6 degrees rule in US bike racing..most people and things are linked to Lance after a degree or two, the way it is and the way it will be for another decade or so.
Get your facts straight: Navigators had the longest running program in U.S. history. Ochowicz was unable to find a team sponsor since Motorola pulled out back in the mid 1990's. Och then fired the guy who gave him the 7-Eleven sponsorship (Gerard Bisceglie). Now he apparently bought his way onto a doping team by the same Rihs who promoted doping on his old Phonak squad.

Och is desperate to get that Tour de France win he never got with Motorola because his team's doping methods weren't as sophisticated back then.

Och thinks Phinney is going to be the next Lance, but anyone who knows anything about the sport knows that Phinney is going to be the next Bobby Julich.
 
Oct 8, 2010
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Franklin said:
There is a moral issue here with the opinions presented....

Unless I am mistaken there is indeed no court order or a suspension blocking either of those riders not to compete.

Yet you guys agree the riders need to be punished already????

I'm sorry guys, but this is becoming a rabid lynch mob. Whatever Ballan did wrong, he does not need to be kept in limbo. As long as there is no official subpoena or suspension notification he should be allowed to race.

We are not having caveman justice anymore.
Teams don't need to hold a trial before they suspend a rider. A team can suspend a rider for anything it wants. Ballan is as dirty as they come and everybody knows it. Och wants to pretend that he hasn't spoken to the rider...as if speaking to him will resolve the issue. Let's see..the guy was caught in wire taps talking about EPO... who is Och kidding with this little act of his?
 
TERMINATOR said:
Teams don't need to hold a trial before they suspend a rider. A team can suspend a rider for anything it wants. Ballan is as dirty as they come and everybody knows it. Och wants to pretend that he hasn't spoken to the rider...as if speaking to him will resolve the issue. Let's see..the guy was caught in wire taps talking about EPO... who is Och kidding with this little act of his?
Wait, was Ballan caught talking about EPO or was some pharmacist caught saying "This is what Ballan is taking." If it's the former, then you're right. If it's the latter, I think you need to be a bit more careful in your accusations.

EDIT: It does appear that it's the former, based on what I've seen, meaning that you're right, Ballan was talking about EPO specifically.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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TERMINATOR said:
Get your facts straight: Navigators had the longest running program in U.S. history. Ochowicz was unable to find a team sponsor since Motorola pulled out back in the mid 1990's. Och then fired the guy who gave him the 7-Eleven sponsorship (Gerard Bisceglie). Now he apparently bought his way onto a doping team by the same Rihs who promoted doping on his old Phonak squad.

Och is desperate to get that Tour de France win he never got with Motorola because his team's doping methods weren't as sophisticated back then.

Och thinks Phinney is going to be the next Lance, but anyone who knows anything about the sport knows that Phinney is going to be the next Bobby Julich.
My bad I should have said he was in charge of all US racing for 4 years before he controlled the biggest US team. What are the bib numbers for the Navigators at any race?..start w the Vuelta the Tour? Did the Nav boys do the tour? Call Horner or Klasna they know if they were there or not. Gila,SeaOtter, Sommerville,Superweek..all great races..not Grand Tours..not completely pro by any stretch.

Your silly yarn about buying anything is hot wind. Och has not the cash or clout to "buy' anything. Nobody including Ochowicz saw Phonack team assets as something to buy.

Julich..are you fu..ing kidding me? We have a couple that are better but you should check his resume before you toss you stinky stew against the wall to see what sticks. The guy is a great pro rider regardless of country. His numbers and ability to contribute..today say what he is about as a racer..shame on you you Lance/Lemond worshiper, he is one the best we have had ..period. Julich is quality

Check your facts..what other directors have been to the TDF? Phinney checked.Och has 30 years of PRO at his credit in the US..Should he have called Ball, Bahati or Rodriguez for some advice?

Motorola? The nearest anybody else has got is to own and use one of their phones or walkie talkies . Ochowicz is respected in US cycling
 
Moose McKnuckles said:
Wait, was Ballan caught talking about EPO or was some pharmacist caught saying "This is what Ballan is taking." If it's the former, then you're right. If it's the latter, I think you need to be a bit more careful in your accusations.

EDIT: It does appear that it's the former, based on what I've seen, meaning that you're right, Ballan was talking about EPO specifically.
Ballan was heard talking about EPO, or some such derivative,and testosterone.

In another wire tap, his medic was heard saying that without the chemicals Ballan would never have emerged.

In any case to state that you aren't in touch with your riders, in this day and age and given what the sport is going through, is simply incredible.
 
May 24, 2011
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Whilst I don't have much confidence in Ballan, I agree with Och. The media shouldn't be allowed to pick teams and hard evidence should be shown for someone to be suspended.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
Whilst I don't have much confidence in Ballan, I agree with Och. The media shouldn't be allowed to pick teams and hard evidence should be shown for someone to be suspended.
Evidence like taped phone calls where he discusses EPO, HGH, and Transfusions with his doping doctor? Or the doping schedule with the 10 transfusions? ....are you holding out for video?
 
Nov 20, 2010
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fatandfast said:
My bad I should have said he was in charge of all US racing for 4 years before he controlled the biggest US team. What are the bib numbers for the Navigators at any race?..start w the Vuelta the Tour? Did the Nav boys do the tour? Call Horner or Klasna they know if they were there or not. Gila,SeaOtter, Sommerville,Superweek..all great races..not Grand Tours..not completely pro by any stretch.

Your silly yarn about buying anything is hot wind. Och has not the cash or clout to "buy' anything. Nobody including Ochowicz saw Phonack team assets as something to buy.

Julich..are you fu..ing kidding me? We have a couple that are better but you should check his resume before you toss you stinky stew against the wall to see what sticks. The guy is a great pro rider regardless of country. His numbers and ability to contribute..today say what he is about as a racer..shame on you you Lance/Lemond worshiper, he is one the best we have had ..period. Julich is quality

Check your facts..what other directors have been to the TDF? Phinney checked.Och has 30 years of PRO at his credit in the US..Should he have called Ball, Bahati or Rodriguez for some advice?

Motorola? The nearest anybody else has got is to own and use one of their phones or walkie talkies . Ochowicz is respected in US cycling
I'm looking for Och to be indicted along with Lance and the Weasel. But, you are correct that he is well respected in US cycling circles.
 
May 24, 2011
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Race Radio said:
Evidence like taped phone calls where he discusses EPO, HGH, and Transfusions with his doping doctor? Or the doping schedule with the 10 transfusions? ....are you holding out for video?

anyone can make comment like that..show us the proof bro or keep quiet!! Och hasn't heard those taped phone calls or had definitive proof I guess, unlike you it seems
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
Whilst I don't have much confidence in Ballan, I agree with Och. The media shouldn't be allowed to pick teams and hard evidence should be shown for someone to be suspended.
Funny that you agree with Och - because Och had already suspended Ballan (actually twice).

Exroadman24902 said:
anyone can make comment like that..show us the proof bro or keep quiet!! Och hasn't heard those taped phone calls or had definitive proof I guess, unlike you it seems
Here is the Cyclingnews piece from the Gazzetto del Sport article - and here are some extracts of phone conversations that the Police have:

On April 1, 2009, Ballan talks to Nigrelli about growth hormone:

Ballan: “Is that G?”
Nigrelli: “Yes, of course.”
Ballan: “But how do you take it?”
Nigrelli: “By mouth.”
Ballan: “Have you got some?”
Nigrelli: “It’s being delivered on Tuesday.”

On April 6, 2009, Nigrelli talked to Fiorenzo Bonazzi, asking if he can send Ballan for “the treatment that we’ve already done.” According to Gazzetta dello Sport the police establish that “the athlete has undergone ten transfusions.”

On April 20, 2009, Ballan speaks to Nigrelli about taking EPO.

Nigrelli: “How many have you done?”
Ballan: “This is the fifth one.”
He then adds a little later: “This is how I’ve done EPO...”

On May 4, 2009, Nigrelli talks about Ballan to fellow rider Daniele Pietropolli. “Without chemicals Ballan would never have made it.”
 
Aug 10, 2010
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not quite

TERMINATOR said:
Teams don't need to hold a trial before they suspend a rider. A team can suspend a rider for anything it wants. Ballan is as dirty as they come and everybody knows it. Och wants to pretend that he hasn't spoken to the rider...as if speaking to him will resolve the issue. Let's see..the guy was caught in wire taps talking about EPO... who is Och kidding with this little act of his?
That brilliant strategy didn't work too well for Rabobank when they fired Rasmussen.
 
Sep 9, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
I really find it difficult to believe that a team owner cannot contact a national federation who are investigating 2 of his riders to ask some simple questions and get a feeling for whether they are in trouble or not.
Och must've been one hell of an investment consultant...
 
May 26, 2009
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If these wiretap transcripts are still no more than articles published in the Gazetta (?), and the Italian justice and cycling institutions indeed refuse to confirm them (?), it does seem like a big ask for a team manager to suspend one of his employees.

Regardless of who it is and how pure their intentions might be, it would be frustrating position to be in as manager.

Not sure if it's wise getting into too much of a lather over the Cycling News interview and article either - the questioning and editing is obviously aimed to produce maximum indignation. Who knows if anything else was said that would add some shades of grey to the black and white picture they're presenting.
 

NedBraden

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May 24, 2011
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Essentially, according to some, Ochs is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. No matter what he says that core group will attack him.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Exroadman24902 said:
anyone can make comment like that..show us the proof bro or keep quiet!! Och hasn't heard those taped phone calls or had definitive proof I guess, unlike you it seems
So La Gazetta is making it all up? Really?
 
May 26, 2010
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NedBraden said:
Essentially, according to some, Ochs is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. No matter what he says that core group will attack him.
No he's damned as a doping DS. End of.

Plenty of evidence that Ballan is a doper. Och probably funds it. Spouting contradictory BS to the media and expecting fans with half a brain who follow the sport to believe him is pathetic.

Exroadman24902 said:
anyone can make comment like that..show us the proof bro or keep quiet!! Och hasn't heard those taped phone calls or had definitive proof I guess, unlike you it seems
how do you know what Och has or hasn't heard? The Italian press don't tend to get these things wrong.

I'll say again it, if you're the DS of a pro team and one of your top riders is implicated in doping, you dont rely on hearsay and what others say. You go to the federation after getting your rider to tell you what he's been up too.

You're looking really naive at best......
 

NedBraden

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May 24, 2011
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Benotti69 said:
No he's damned as a doping DS. End of.

Plenty of evidence that Ballan is a doper. Och probably funds it. Spouting contradictory BS to the media and expecting fans with half a brain who follow the sport to believe him is pathetic.

While I expect you to make excuses because you are one of the people I was talking about I will explain what I meant to you.

As I read this thread Och is getting ripped for saying he does not have access for the info. If he came out and said Ballan doped guys like you would rip him and say he was the one leading the doping. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

This is what's wrong with our world today...self proclaimed experts, such as yourself, make a decision about guilt or innocence and will not waver, turning any comment, fact or rumor into proof of that opinion. I truly belive that if the person you trusted the most when it comes to cycling, whether it be a rider, a DS, a sponsor or God, told you someone you decided is dirty, was clean you call them a liar and not believe them.

By the way, I am not just talking about cycling when it comes to the paragraph above, it's abut all sports, politics, religion, etc.
 
May 26, 2010
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NedBraden said:
While I expect you to make excuses because you are one of the people I was talking about I will explain what I meant to you.

As I read this thread Och is getting ripped for saying he does not have access for the info. If he came out and said Ballan doped guys like you would rip him and say he was the one leading the doping. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.
I am not making excuses. I
Of course he's damned. He's the DS/Owner of the team!!! FFS. If he wants fans to believe in his team being clean, and i doubt he cares after his comments to be honest, he will do the right thing and get to the heart of the matter in every way possible.

Ballan was recorded talking on the phone about his doping!

NedBraden said:
This is what's wrong with our world today...self proclaimed experts, such as yourself, make a decision about guilt or innocence and will not waver, turning any comment, fact or rumor into proof of that opinion. I truly belive that if the person you trusted the most when it comes to cycling, whether it be a rider, a DS, a sponsor or God, told you someone you decided is dirty, was clean you call them a liar and not believe them.

By the way, I am not just talking about cycling when it comes to the paragraph above, it's abut all sports, politics, religion, etc.
This is an internet forum. We are discussing doping. Ballan was recorded on the phone confirming he dopes and what he was taking. THe police are taking it seriously enough to investigate. CONI are investigating. His DS, Och, pretends otherwise. I started a post about how he must think fans are idiots.
 
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