Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

[will10]

huh...what's worse, "dopers united" (Jalabert, Sanchez, etc...) or "dopers let's kick him now he's down" ?

Bettini certainly has some nerve and the CN article makes sure everyone is aware of that by listing all of his wins at the beginning of the article : http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bettini-calls-on-armstrong-to-confess

Could scarcely believe what he was saying... always liked Bettini but he must be as deluded as Armstrong to be coming out with that rubbish. '96 U23 Worlds anyone? The Figueras quote about the Italian team? Get off your soapbox Paolo, you're making a fool of yourself.

 

[hrotha]

According to his teammates that spoke to Tygart he doped!

It really is funny that he has to twist everything. Before is it was never doped, then never tested positive now it is according to all the other dopers who like him still he won. That is a pretty small minority. Merckx, Livingston, Eki, Popo, Bruyneel...........

He is almost at the bottom of the barrel.

I'm afraid the "dopers who think he won" category is still the majority, and probably includes many or most of those who spoke to Tygart.

 

[Ferminal]

Well, those races certainly weren't won by anyone else.

 

[Benotti69]

I'm afraid the "dopers who think he won" category is still the majority, and probably includes many or most of those who spoke to Tygart.

A few big 'dopers' have come out like Indurain, but the rest have kept their mouths shut tight, hardly support.

Hinault, still a big voice has come out against Armstrong. That was a blow. A few ex team mates means nothing when Hincapie, Landis and Hamilton , the 3 most infamous have spilled the beans.

Armstrong is grasping at diminshing straws. For someone who had millions of fans this is a huge fall. He can pretend that he won and those who still feel loyal or hope to earn off him can pretend he won, but meh, the rest of us dont live in Mellow Johnnies basement.

 

[hrotha]

Really? Forgot the outrage at the Reactions thread already? Particularly about the Spanish riders?

Take Levi for example. Sure, he spilled the beans. Does he also think Armstrong didn't win? I very much doubt it. Levi doped his whole life and in all probability died to the USADA. Landis for example has always made it clear he doesn't regret doping, he only regrets how he handled his positive.

These guys don't feel cheated. It's as simple (and sad) as that.

Fortunately, we don't have to rely on Armstrong's peers to determine who won. Armstrong can write whatever he wants, and that won't change the fact that he didn't win a single Tour. But he's right about his peers.

 

[Benotti69]

Really? Forgot the outrage at the Reactions thread already? Particularly about the Spanish riders?

Take Levi for example. Sure, he spilled the beans. Does he also think Armstrong didn't win? I very much doubt it. Levi doped his whole life and in all probability died to the USADA. Landis for example has always made it clear he doesn't regret doping, he only regrets how he handled his positive.

These guys don't feel cheated. It's as simple (and sad) as that.

Fortunately, we don't have to rely on Armstrong's peers to determine who won. Armstrong can write whatever he wants, and that won't change the fact that he didn't win a single Tour. But he's right about his peers.

I metioned Indurain and a few others (Valverde etc). But most riders have kept quiet on the issue. Although the Spanish would look foolish to say otherwise.

My understanding of Landis was that he felt at the time he did what he had to do. I also felt Landis would not have doped in a clean enviroment, but he doesn't believe cycling will ever be a clean environment.

I doubt Leipheimer or many others consider Armstrong the true winner as we all know how much power he had and how stacked the odds were in his favour. It was not a straight forward dope to win race between riders. It was the GC guys doped against Armstrong who had dope plus the UCI/ASO and Ferarri on his side. They hardly feel that was a level playing field with dope!

I bet Ullrich feels cheated, I bet Beloki feels cheated, I bet Basso feels cheated. I bet they all felt they were doping the same as Armstrong, which would have meant they could hardly feel cheated but he had the UCI in his back pocket and that made it unfair to them.

I think a lot of guys will lie about how they feel to Armstrong and distance themselves from him. I guess those who turned up for his recent cycle spin in Austin (Oct 2012) are those that back him publicly. The rest may say it to him but that is because it easier to lie to Armstrong than risk his wrath, but I's say that will change in the future now that his power is waning.

 

[sniper]

Really? Forgot the outrage at the Reactions thread already? Particularly about the Spanish riders?

Take Levi for example. Sure, he spilled the beans. Does he also think Armstrong didn't win? I very much doubt it. Levi doped his whole life and in all probability died to the USADA. Landis for example has always made it clear he doesn't regret doping, he only regrets how he handled his positive.

These guys don't feel cheated. It's as simple (and sad) as that.

Fortunately, we don't have to rely on Armstrong's peers to determine who won. Armstrong can write whatever he wants, and that won't change the fact that he didn't win a single Tour. But he's right about his peers.

+1.
It's why there's no doubt in my mind that wiggins 2009 was dirty.
He never felt cheated by Armstrong.
Nor did JV for that matter.

 

[blackcat]

I doubt Leipheimer or many others consider Armstrong the true winner as we all know how much power he had and how stacked the odds were in his favour. It was not a straight forward dope to win race between riders. It was the GC guys doped against Armstrong who had dope plus the UCI/ASO and Ferarri on his side. They hardly feel that was a level playing field with dope!

see the difference between Armstrong and Rumsas in 2002. No doubt Rumsas had a modicum of talent, he won a monument, Lombardy.

Take away the team timetrial, and Rumsas only gave up about 5 minutes to Armstrong at the Tour in 2002. Indeed, he beat Beloki without the timetrial.

Now, imagine Armstrong races without Ferrari, without the USPS domestiques, without the 3 Spanish doctors on his team, and with his wife Kristin smuggling Chinese counterfeit EPO across borders.

Now give Rumsas the wind tunnel, the domestiques and USPS team leadership, and the resources of that team, the 3 Spanish doctors, and the doping regimen with Ferrari.

I bet Ullrich feels cheated, I bet Beloki feels cheated, I bet Basso feels cheated. I bet they all felt they were doping the same as Armstrong, which would have meant they could hardly feel cheated but he had the UCI in his back pocket and that made it unfair to them.

I think a lot of guys will lie about how they feel to Armstrong and distance themselves from him. I guess those who turned up for his recent cycle spin in Austin (Oct 2012) are those that back him publicly. The rest may say it to him but that is because it easier to lie to Armstrong than risk his wrath, but I's say that will change in the future now that his power is waning.

some who only got a few years in the pros feal cheated. I know one Saunier pro who got one year and was not renewed. He feels cheated.

 

[blackcat]

+1.
It's why there's no doubt in my mind that wiggins 2009 was dirty.
He never felt cheated by Armstrong.
Nor did JV for that matter.

wiggins and british cycling have always done what the continental pros do. They do what the australians and the kiwis do also. His career was never clean. but it definitely never ramped up to the proper FULL program he took up since his Giro debut riding hills on the Chipotle outfit. The one before he came with a phenomenal Tour gc debut.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

In a PED-free world if Lance had used his money to hire the best trainer in the world, would it still be a level playing field?

What if, for example, altitude tents did not exist and his trainer invented them, and Lance was the only to use them, and that's why he won? Would that be a level playing field?

I think it's likely that his rivals, peers and teammates do still consider him to be the "winner", and that they consider the playing field to have been level, as level as it would be in these hypothetical examples, which they consider to be fair. I mean, I certainly have not seen any evidence to the contrary from anything any of them have said.

But by this reasoning shouldn't Floyd also still be a TDF winner?

 

[thirteen]

In a PED-free world if Lance had used his money to hire the best trainer in the world, would it still be a level playing field?

What if, for example, altitude tents did not exist and his trainer invented them, and Lance was the only to use them, and that's why he won? Would that be a level playing field?

I think it's likely that his rivals, peers and teammates do still consider him to be the "winner", and that they consider the playing field to have been level, as level as it would be in these hypothetical examples, which they consider to be fair. I mean, I certainly have not seen any evidence to the contrary from anything any of them have said.

But by this reasoning shouldn't Floyd also still be a TDF winner?

this is what especially gets my goat -- in terms of cycling.

but there are so many other heinous things LA did that makes me want him to pay. and, frankly, i'd be happy to never hear his name again.

 

[BroDeal]

Really? Forgot the outrage at the Reactions thread already? Particularly about the Spanish riders?

Take Levi for example. Sure, he spilled the beans. Does he also think Armstrong didn't win? I very much doubt it. Levi doped his whole life and in all probability died to the USADA. Landis for example has always made it clear he doesn't regret doping, he only regrets how he handled his positive.

These guys don't feel cheated. It's as simple (and sad) as that.

Fortunately, we don't have to rely on Armstrong's peers to determine who won. Armstrong can write whatever he wants, and that won't change the fact that he didn't win a single Tour. But he's right about his peers.

I bet Mayo feels cheated.

 

[D-Queued]

In a PED-free world if Lance had used his money to hire the best trainer in the world, would it still be a level playing field?

What if, for example, altitude tents did not exist and his trainer invented them, and Lance was the only to use them, and that's why he won? Would that be a level playing field?

I think it's likely that his rivals, peers and teammates do still consider him to be the "winner", and that they consider the playing field to have been level, as level as it would be in these hypothetical examples, which they consider to be fair. I mean, I certainly have not seen any evidence to the contrary from anything any of them have said.

But by this reasoning shouldn't Floyd also still be a TDF winner?

Floyd and his hypothetical Harley had no competition.

Dave.

 

[Zweistein]

see the difference between Armstrong and Rumsas in 2002. No doubt Rumsas had a modicum of talent, he won a monument, Lombardy.

Take away the team timetrial, and Rumsas only gave up about 5 minutes to Armstrong at the Tour in 2002. Indeed, he beat Beloki without the timetrial.

Now, imagine Armstrong races without Ferrari, without the USPS domestiques, without the 3 Spanish doctors on his team, and with his wife Kristin smuggling Chinese counterfeit EPO across borders.

Now give Rumsas the wind tunnel, the domestiques and USPS team leadership, and the resources of that team, the 3 Spanish doctors, and the doping regimen with Ferrari.



some who only got a few years in the pros feal cheated. I know one Saunier pro who got one year and was not renewed. He feels cheated.

Even Zulle it could be argued was a better rider. The time gap could almost entirely be attributed to the peloton being split on the flooded bridge. I don't know if Zulle was still doping but Armstrong most definently was.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q8Y0uL-4oA

"The critics say I'm arrogant, a doper, washed up, a fraud..."

Seems those critics were pretty ****ing accurate, right?

 

[D-Queued]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q8Y0uL-4oA

"The critics say I'm arrogant, a doper, washed up, a fraud..."

Seems those critics were pretty ****ing accurate, right?

In a way, you have to admit to the honesty in advertising.

"I'm not back on my bike for them..."

No, and you weren't back on the bike for cancer victims or their families either.

It's not even about the bike.

It's all about The Lance.

Dave.

 

[Mr.38%]

It's all about The Lance.

#
The who?

 

[webvan]

So here we are...Oprah to the rescue -> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-set-for-tell-all-interview-with-oprah-winfrey

 

[Fatclimber]

If anyone can give a summary of tonights 60 minutes sports episode for those of us who won't be able to see it that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Race Radio]

If anyone can give a summary of tonights 60 minutes sports episode for those of us who won't be able to see it that would be greatly appreciated.

Good rundown here

https://twitter.com/nyvelocity

 

[Race Radio]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324581504578231921090784576.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet

Good explanation of why many in the Pro Peloton are so scared to question Lance

A few years ago I was at a dinner with a star pro cyclist—a guy who still races, and has won multiple Tour de France stages—and he spoke with slack-jawed awe about Armstrong's life. Not the bike racing part. The private jet part. The audiences with world leaders. The celebrity girlfriends. This bike racer was young and rich and in his prime and yet to him, Armstrong just kicked it on a completely different, interplanetary level. He didn't talk about Lance Armstrong like Lance Armstrong was a cyclist. He talked about Lance Armstrong like Lance Armstrong was Beyoncé.

 

[BroDeal]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324581504578231921090784576.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet

Good explanation of why many in the Pro Peloton are so scared to question Lance

A few years ago I was at a dinner with a star pro cyclist—a guy who still races, and has won multiple Tour de France stages—and he spoke with slack-jawed awe about Armstrong's life. Not the bike racing part. The private jet part. The audiences with world leaders. The celebrity girlfriends. This bike racer was young and rich and in his prime and yet to him, Armstrong just kicked it on a completely different, interplanetary level. He didn't talk about Lance Armstrong like Lance Armstrong was a cyclist. He talked about Lance Armstrong like Lance Armstrong was Beyoncé.

We should figure out who is talked to because that rider is surely on the sauce.

 

[Merckx index]

Good rundown here

https://twitter.com/nyvelocity

Holy Sh!t! This is a bombshell:

Next, tour de Suisse, TH talking about cover up by UCI. TT says he heard the same from Saugy at a dinner. TT says Saugy told him LA samples indicative of EPO use, was instructed by UCI to meet with LA and JB to explain how test works.TT : did you give Armstrong and Bruyneel the keys to defeat the epo test? Saugy: nods head yes.

But if this is true, why couldn’t TT include it in the charging letter? I guess because it was his word vs. Saugy’s? Yet he’s not afraid to publicize it now? Will Saugy deny? Will he sue? Stay tuned.

 

[Benotti69]

Good rundown here

https://twitter.com/nyvelocity

Cheers for that.

 

[reginagold]

Holy Sh!t! This is a bombshell:



But if this is true, why couldn’t TT include it in the charging letter? I guess because it was his word vs. Saugy’s? Yet he’s not afraid to publicize it now? Will Saugy deny? Will he sue? Stay tuned.

Additional witnesses and evidence have surfaced over last few months, so maybe he has some additional back up that he didn't have earlier. Or maybe this info wasn't needed since Lance gave up his right to contest USADA. Or maybe it's more important this info be used in the Hog proceedings?