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Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
DirtyWorks said:
They have wiped all of his historic results from some date 199x forward.

But can they do that? Again, the UCI appears to have been disputing that very point quite recently. I don't understand how that can be up for debate. I'd have thought the UCI and WADA/USADA would have very clear rules about this sort of thing. However McQuaid's letter to the USADA on Aug 3rd focuses on "results management" and claims the USADA lacks the authority in that area.
 
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There are just so many issues here. Jurisdiction and authority, the methods used by AD agencies, evidence, statutes of limitations, authority to ban people not licensed, hearsay, Witchcraft and magic? Endless suits and countersuits?
There are so many toes getting stepped on I cannot imagine this is even close to an end. Just a new twist.
 
Master50 said:
There are just so many issues here. Jurisdiction and authority, the methods used by AD agencies, evidence, statutes of limitations, authority to ban people not licensed, hearsay, Witchcraft and magic? Endless suits and countersuits?
There are so many toes getting stepped on I cannot imagine this is even close to an end. Just a new twist.

No it's very simple. You dope, get caught, lose your titles. Simple.
 
Jun 28, 2009
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No it's very simple. You dope, get caught, lose your titles. Simple.
If you admit to doping should you lose your titles as well? I highly doubt the USADA is going to strip everything from Hincapie, Vande Velde, Vaughters, Landis, Hamilton, etc? The cycling community made a precedent with Riis that I think is going to stick in this case. I have a hard time believing that the ASO believes that an organization in America has the right to strip champions of their event. I think this is probably alright. Not a single rider from this era would have been able to win in a trial by the USADA.
 
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No it's very simple. You dope, get caught, lose your titles. Simple.
If you admit to doping should you lose your titles as well? I highly doubt the USADA is going to strip everything from Hincapie, Vande Velde, Vaughters, Landis, Hamilton, etc? The cycling community made a precedent with Riis that I think is going to stick in this case. I have a hard time believing that the ASO believes that an organization in America has the right to strip champions of their event 13 years after wins happened. I think this is probably alright. Not a single rider from this era would have been able to win in a trial by the USADA.
 
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thehog said:
No its simple. You do drugs, you get caught, you get sanctioned. Simple.

Isn't USADA's media-baiting Wiki-Justice?

Isn't the idea of "who cares, we got the result we wanted" exactly the crime you all want to pillory Armstrong for?

"Most of us would assume that before someone is banned from his sport for life, there'd at least be a positive test result entered as evidence. But it turns out that's not necessary under USADA's rules."

http://kcbssportsfans.blogspot.com/2012/08/live-strong.html

“It’s a sad day for all of us who love sport and our athletic heroes. It’s yet another heartbreaking example of how the win-at-all-costs culture, if left unchecked, will overtake fair, safe and honest competition.” - an ironic quote from Travis Tygart, the rather Thug director of shadow agency USADA. Tygart, a graduate of SMU, apparently missed the lesson of Matthew 7:3-5.
 
montagna lunga said:
Isn't USADA's media-baiting Wiki-Justice?

Isn't the idea of "who cares, we got the result we wanted" exactly the crime you all want to pillory Armstrong for?

"Most of us would assume that before someone is banned from his sport for life, there'd at least be a positive test result entered as evidence. But it turns out that's not necessary under USADA's rules."

http://kcbssportsfans.blogspot.com/2012/08/live-strong.html

“It’s a sad day for all of us who love sport and our athletic heroes. It’s yet another heartbreaking example of how the win-at-all-costs culture, if left unchecked, will overtake fair, safe and honest competition.” - an ironic quote from Travis Tygart, the rather Thug director of shadow agency USADA. Tygart, a graduate of SMU, apparently missed the lesson of Matthew 7:3-5.

It's still very simple. The rules state "no doping". If you dope and get caught, you get sanctioned. It's not difficult.

He doped, he cheated and was sanctioned.

Simple. Very simple.
 
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montagna lunga said:
Isn't USADA's media-baiting Wiki-Justice?

Isn't the idea of "who cares, we got the result we wanted" exactly the crime you all want to pillory Armstrong for?

"Most of us would assume that before someone is banned from his sport for life, there'd at least be a positive test result entered as evidence. But it turns out that's not necessary under USADA's rules."

http://kcbssportsfans.blogspot.com/2012/08/live-strong.html

“It’s a sad day for all of us who love sport and our athletic heroes. It’s yet another heartbreaking example of how the win-at-all-costs culture, if left unchecked, will overtake fair, safe and honest competition.” - an ironic quote from Travis Tygart, the rather Thug director of shadow agency USADA. Tygart, a graduate of SMU, apparently missed the lesson of Matthew 7:3-5.

The only thugs here are Armstrong and his paid liars.

He tested positive twice. What do you not understand. the corruption hid those positives.

Do y'all think Armstrong is Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz. hahahahahahaha
 
Jun 28, 2009
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What is the likelihood that UCI will not agree to strip Lance of his TdF titles? What would be USADA's recourse if that were to happen?
Actually what could the USADA do if Lance refuses to comply and hand over his trophies? They are not part of the Justice System.
 
Benotti69 said:
The only thugs here are Armstrong and his paid liars.

He tested positive twice. What do you not understand. the corruption hid those positives.

Do y'all think Armstrong is Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz. hahahahahahaha

Isn't it at least three and more likely 8 to 10 positives?

1. '99 Corticosteroids (illegimate backdated prescription & TUE)

http://m.si.com/news/to/to/detail/3775061

2. '99 EPO 6 of 15 Samples (Suppressed by UCI)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/aug/24/tourdefrance2005.tourdefrance1

3. '01 EPO 1-3 Samples (Paid off UCI)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ashenden-says-mcquaid-must-now-help-usadas-investigation

So... 8 to 10 Positives?

And this just in from another thread:

frenchfry said:
This was posted (and translated) higher in the thread, but the link was to a different site.

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Actualites/Armstrong-prevenu-avant-les-tests/308442

A scientific consultant to the ALFD says that Armstrong was warned before each control. He also mentions techniques that can be used in 20 minutes or less to avoid positives. Not a lot of detail, but no ambiguity about the statement. He also states the UCI and IOC were involved in the warnings.

Lance Armstrong, who has repeatedly said he never tested positive despite the hundreds of tests he underwent was " warned before all the checks , "says scientific advisor to the French Agency for the fight against doping Agency (AFLD ) in Le Monde dated 26 and 27 August. "We did not know until the last minute which hotel it was installed" said Michel Rieu before explaining how, according to him, the American could mislead physicians: " The samplers have struggled to carry out spot checks without Lance Armstrong can benefit from a period of twenty minutes (...) His entourage has accumulated pretenses and palaver to get this famous time. "

"In twenty minutes, a lot of manipulations are possible, says Michel Rieu, giving details that were not all in the act of acusation U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (Usada ). was conducting infusions of saline to dilute the blood. He replaced his own urine by an artificial urine. It is administered EPO in small doses. The substance was undetectable. Without information from the police or customs, it was impossible to fight this way. "
 
thehog said:
CAS. And CAS = Evidence.

& UCI would be extremely misguided to let that happen, though it wouldn't be out of character given the recent drunk letters.

If UCI gives USADA the opportunity, the complicity and corruption of the UCI would become very public.

By-by Olympic Cycling and the 3.5m annual grant from the IOC + the Japanese would be ****ed to lose the benefit of their 'donation' for the inclusion of Keirin.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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How did Armstrong beat 500 tests ?

I hesitated opening this thread…firstly, b/c of the warning sticky up there. Secondly, b/c the content I had in mind ALREADY exists in several threads…then, I reckoned the subject is hot enough to deserve its own thread for the following reasons:

(i) it would provide a tool to debunk the most pernicious argument of the apologists - ‘never tested positive, no physical evidence’
(ii) so many new revelations that it became hard to keep up with so many threads
(iii) there could be some educational value here - the forum has many intelligent posters asking good questions and several scientists to potentially answer them.

so let’s get started…I would break Armstrong’s tactic into several larger groups:

1. Invent, exaggerate, spin the number of tests.

We discussed this to death. only 236 tests were documented by dim. Even if dim, a private individual, missed some, an agency officially tasked with counting such tests, the united states anti-doping agency, was also dumbfounded by the number. They asked to back up the claim in the official letter. There was no response. In stead a new number was advanced overnight - 600 - by Armstrong lawyers.

2. Engage in cover-ups, corruption, intimidation and threats of legal action
this was also extensively discussed. On at least 3 well documented occasions of positive tests there was uci cover provided - (1) acceptance of 1999 backdated prescription for a corticosteroid, (2) emergency meetings due to 2001 tos epo positive (3) vrijman report to white wash l’equipe-discovered epo positives from 1999 tdf. It is also well documented that a number of people (the list is very long - more than dozen) were sued when they tried to tell the truth. Add to the recent AFLD revelation that Armstrong was regularly warned of the testers arrival.

3. Run, hide, delay obfuscate
this method of beating the testers is less publicized. essentially it amounts to disappearing when the testers arrive or delaying them. The current rule is that an athlete can miss 2 tests before the hammer drops on the 3d miss within 18 months . in the just published outside magazine article, Mike Anderson described one such occasion when Armstrong ran . Tyler in his newest book also described how they would set up look-out pickets to warn of the vampires arrival. Included of course in the technique are well documented stores of Armstrong’s shower gate (2009), delays with offering coffee etc etc…

Another subset of the run-hide-delay-obfuscate group is a much less known method of trying to confuse the where-abouts system. That is, to clog the system with frequent or false messages/emails/faxes as to where an athlete actually is atm…or move to a location where no reasonable testing agency would send a human.

4. A sophisticated masking system-chemical, procedural etc.

this is the key method armstrong employed. we should focus on it in particular as it allowed him to beat 99% (tyler’s number) of the tests. as more details become available, I (and hopefully other scientists) will add notes and explanations. here is one juicy bit from Tyler’s book:
"Ferrari advised Lance to sleep in an altitude test and to microdose Edgar [code name for EPO - ed.] in the vein, 800 units a night. This would help keep his haematocrit high and also beat the new EPO test. The altitude tent would create more natural EPO, helping to balance out any synthetic EPO that might linger ... his plan with Ferrari had worked out perfectly.’
To be continued…
 
python said:
1. Invent, exaggerate, spin the number of tests. [/B]
We discussed this to death. only 236 tests were documented by dim. Even if dim, a private individual, missed some, an agency officially tasked with counting such tests, the united states anti-doping agency, was also dumbfounded by the number. They asked to back up the claim in the official letter. There was no response. In stead a new number was advanced overnight - 600 - by Armstrong lawyers.

I furnished Dim much of the data, and I don't think I missed much. Others pointed out to me that some of the wins or podiums that I identified in the 90s were in races where there was no testing. In some cases, I think it was just assumed that there was, just to be sure. Moreover, many of the tests were after the comeback, passports, for example. A lot of these would have just been to establish baseline, you can't test positive in those. Up to the time of his first retirement, which of course includes almost all his palmares, he probably had fewer than the 160 or so tests claimed for Marian Jones.

In the exaggeration category, Phil takes the cake. He not only repeated the 500 mantra, but claimed that LA used to get tested three times a day.

2. Engage in cover-ups, corruption, intimidation and threats of legal action
this was also extensively discussed. On at least 3 well documented occasions of positive tests there was uci cover provided - (1) acceptance of 1999 backdated prescription for a corticosteroid, (2) emergency meetings due to 2001 tos epo positive (3) vrijman report to white wash l’equipe-discovered epo positives from 1999 tdf. It is also well documented that a number of people (the list is very long - more than dozen) were sued when they tried to tell the truth. Add to the recent AFLD revelation that Armstrong was regularly warned of the testers arrival.

Don't forget the several (three?) T/E positives in the early 90s, in Caitlin's lab. Don't know if these were cover-ups, but belong in this thread. Also, how about the failure of UCI to discover his very high hCG? Not a coverup, surely, but it raises questions about the reliability of the testing in those days.

3. Run, hide, delay obfuscate
this method of beating the testers is less publicized. essentially it amounts to disappearing when the testers arrive or delaying them. The current rule is that an athlete can miss 2 tests before the hammer drops on the 3d miss within 18 months . in the just published outside magazine article, Mike Anderson described one such occasion when Armstrong ran . Tyler in his newest book also described how they would set up look-out pickets to warn of the vampires arrival. Included of course in the technique are well documented stores of Armstrong’s shower gate (2009), delays with offering coffee etc etc…

Another subset of the run-hide-delay-obfuscate group is a much less known method of trying to confuse the where-abouts system. That is, to clog the system with frequent or false messages/emails/faxes as to where an athlete actually is atm…or move to a location where no reasonable testing agency would send a human.

Tyler I think it was also mentioned that by French law there could be no testing between 10 PM and 6 AM. This was a loophole, of course, that the entire peloton could ride through.


4. A sophisticated masking system-chemical, procedural etc.

this is the key method armstrong employed. we should focus on it in particular as it allowed him to beat 99% (tyler’s number) of the tests. as more details become available, I (and hopefully other scientists) will add notes and explanations. here is one juicy bit from Tyler’s book:
"Ferrari advised Lance to sleep in an altitude test and to microdose Edgar [code name for EPO - ed.] in the vein, 800 units a night. This would help keep his haematocrit high and also beat the new EPO test. The altitude tent would create more natural EPO, helping to balance out any synthetic EPO that might linger ... his plan with Ferrari had worked out perfectly.’

That was a very interesting revelation, I don't think any of us had heard of that before. We do know, of course, from Floyd and others that riders used (still use) EPO to raise reticulocytes after a transfusion, and of course inject saline or a substance that draws fluid into the circulatory system to lower the HT. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Ferrari had other tricks for masking EPO or its effects.

Still to be learned, if we are lucky, is whether LA had access to substances for which there were no tests, such as HemAssist, PFCs, etc.

I would add a very important part 5: tipping off the UCI that his rivals were doping (Mayo, Hamilton, maybe others). This is not directly relevant to how he passed all those tests, but it not only eliminated some of his toughest rivals, but would allow him to claim that the testing system was working. If, e.g., some big riders like Hamilton (and Heras? speculating here) tested positive because of his warning UCI, LA could say that the tests were not all that easy to beat.
 
A

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Alpe d'Huez said:
Of course this list doesn't mention out the fact there is no test for autologous blood doping. Also the fact that for years there was no test for HGH, and the one there is isn't very effective.

Good points.

Can anyone speak to the test developed or being developed for the plasticizer molecule (I may not have that quite right)?

Heard a little about it with the Contador case and there's at least some speculation that the USADA has this as evidence regarding LA's 2009/10 samples.

If that test has been developed then autologous transfusions may be on the way out.
 
Jun 20, 2009
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speculation

Merckx index said:
I furnished Dim much of the data, and I don't think I missed much. Others pointed out to me that some of the wins or podiums that I identified in the 90s were in races where there was no testing. In some cases, I think it was just assumed that there was, just to be sure. Moreover, many of the tests were after the comeback, passports, for example. A lot of these would have just been to establish baseline, you can't test positive in those. Up to the time of his first retirement, which of course includes almost all his palmares, he probably had fewer than the 160 or so tests claimed for Marian Jones.

In the exaggeration category, Phil takes the cake. He not only repeated the 500 mantra, but claimed that LA used to get tested three times a day.



Don't forget the several (three?) T/E positives in the early 90s, in Caitlin's lab. Don't know if these were cover-ups, but belong in this thread. Also, how about the failure of UCI to discover his very high hCG? Not a coverup, surely, but it raises questions about the reliability of the testing in those days.



Tyler I think it was also mentioned that by French law there could be no testing between 10 PM and 6 AM. This was a loophole, of course, that the entire peloton could ride through.



That was a very interesting revelation, I don't think any of us had heard of that before. We do know, of course, from Floyd and others that riders used (still use) EPO to raise reticulocytes after a transfusion, and of course inject saline or a substance that draws fluid into the circulatory system to lower the HT. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Ferrari had other tricks for masking EPO or its effects.

Still to be learned, if we are lucky, is whether LA had access to substances for which there were no tests, such as HemAssist, PFCs, etc.

I would add a very important part 5: tipping off the UCI that his rivals were doping (Mayo, Hamilton, maybe others). This is not directly relevant to how he passed all those tests, but it not only eliminated some of his toughest rivals, but would allow him to claim that the testing system was working. If, e.g., some big riders like Hamilton (and Heras? speculating here) tested positive because of his warning UCI, LA could say that the tests were not all that easy to beat.

I must admit...if speculation were money you would be a billionaire...Armstrong is responsible for others failing drug tests so "He" could make it look like the system worked? Guess he got Ulrich as well who he never seemed to have a poblem with? Pantani? KohL? Ricco jeez the list is long. Gues she "Ordered" THE AFLD TO GO AFTER LANDIS? Funny thing is hte AFLD pretty much hated armstrong now thye are saying that they protected him? methinks thou protesteth too much...I want answers also but saying thta testing doesnt work doenst bear scruting when we look at the long list of busted road warriors...Next thing we know youll be saying that since Greg lemond beat fignon by a massive amount in a time trial thta won him the tour and fignon was a self confessed Doper that MUST MEAN that Lemomd was using as well....glad im not on trial for murder and you are on the jury...
inductive reasoning and innuendo do not equal sherlockian logic...
lets have some well reasoned- reason for a change...
 
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Anonymous

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roadfreak44 said:
I must admit...if speculation were money you would be a billionaire...Armstrong is responsible for others failing drug tests so "He" could make it look like the system worked? Guess he got Ulrich as well who he never seemed to have a poblem with? Pantani? KohL? Ricco jeez the list is long. Gues she "Ordered" THE AFLD TO GO AFTER LANDIS? Funny thing is hte AFLD pretty much hated armstrong now thye are saying that they protected him? methinks thou protesteth too much...I want answers also but saying thta testing doesnt work doenst bear scruting when we look at the long list of busted road warriors...Next thing we know youll be saying that since Greg lemond beat fignon by a massive amount in a time trial thta won him the tour and fignon was a self confessed Doper that MUST MEAN that Lemomd was using as well....glad im not on trial for murder and you are on the jury...
inductive reasoning and innuendo do not equal sherlockian logic...
lets have some well reasoned- reason for a change...

Nice, on topic post. I see what you did there... Introducing LeMond to derail the thread.

The real fun part is you 'wanting answers.'. That's pretty amusing.
 

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