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Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

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Hahaha except all those names were busted when Lance was retired. Except Pantani, busted prior to comeback 1.0

Further, almost all of the major cyclists were not caught failing a test (see USADA response to Fat Pat). Just a select few ;)

Your GL comment is so puerile it does not deserve a response
 

LauraLyn

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Merckx index said:
. . . . Up to the time of his first retirement, which of course includes almost all his palmares, he probably had fewer than the 160 or so tests claimed for Marian Jones.

In the exaggeration category, Phil takes the cake. He not only repeated the 500 mantra, but claimed that LA used to get tested three times a day.

. . . .

Phil was indeed funny.

Lance did what others riders did and do: Have a team director who supports doping and organizes it; have a team "doctor" that gets the drugs, understands how they work, how the tests works, and administers them (it is a specialty, that is why the same names keep reappearing); and swear everyone to secrecy.

Lance then also had the added support of the UCI, USA Cycling, ASO and, it seems, even the President of France.

How he could possibly have been caught is a mystery.

And still he was caught. Good work USADA.
 
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Frank Tuesday said:
Maybe he is counting all of his tests, including the ones by his own doctors to make sure that his program was working correctly. A test is a test.

Have you evidence that he doctors were doing tests. He has has failed at least 2 in competition tests and there are talk of failed tests in 2004/05 and that does not include the failed retests of the 1999 samples.

So the 500 tests is an outright lie no matter the number. He failed tests for doping.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
there is no test for autologous blood doping

I see this oft repeated. Isn't it possible to detect autologous blood doping by measuring the age of blood cells? Yes maybe there isn't a "test" per se but I've read it is possible to detect re-injection of your own blood as red blood cell age can be measured. I think a higher proportion of old cells would strongly indicate autologous blood doping. It may be more a case of how willing the authorities are to employ this method of testing.
 

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Frank Tuesday said:
Maybe he is counting all of his tests, including the ones by his own doctors to make sure that his program was working correctly. A test is a test.

There are all kinds of ways to count to 500.

Didn't Lance also say 500-600?

He has stopped giving numbers lately. Most recently it was simply "hundreds".

Counting is maybe not one of Lance's strengths. Let's give him that.
 
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LauraLyn said:
There are all kinds of ways to count to 500.

Didn't Lance also say 500-600?

He has stopped giving numbers lately. Most recently it was simply "hundreds".

Counting is maybe not one of Lance's strengths. Let's give him that.

Yeah, no. Let's not.

As the central BS line to his defense lets go ahead and demand he tell the truth and not be allowed to spin the ignorant.

Ok with you?
 

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Scott SoCal said:
Yeah, no. Let's not.

As the central BS line to his defense lets go ahead and demand he tell the truth and not be allowed to spin the ignorant.

Ok with you?

I was being a bit tongue in cheek. Apologies.

Definitely ok with me. But it ain't gonna happen.
 
Merckx index said:
That was a very interesting revelation, I don't think any of us had heard of that before. We do know, of course, from Floyd and others that riders used (still use) EPO to raise reticulocytes after a transfusion, and of course inject saline or a substance that draws fluid into the circulatory system to lower the HT. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Ferrari had other tricks for masking EPO or its effects.

DeCanio wrote about JV telling him how to use altitude to beat the EPO test.

"Back to avoiding the positive test by Vaughters. He told when you use EPO it produces a synthetic product in your blood and this is what is flagged. But if you use EPO and put your body at altitude this will cause your body to replace those flags so you will not test positive for EPO. So having an altitude chamber or living at altitude while using EPO you will not test positive for EPO."

This always seemed a bit sketchy to me, but it is DeCanio relating second hand info that he probably does not understand himself.

The list of four avoids the most obvious reason. The tests do not work very well. They are easy to beat and a lot of substances and methods were undectable.
 

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Scott SoCal said:
Even 6th graders can count to 500.

500-600, to be precise.

Or was it "hundreds".

Well, something like that.

Anyway, the most tested man on the planet, oops, universe. And definitely no positives, no matter how you count.
 
LauraLyn said:
...And definitely no positives, no matter how you count.

Still perpetuating the myth I see, cunningly slipped in with a humerous comment

The sudden jump from 500 to more than 600 tests was in Armstrongs paid liars brief to Judge Sparks. USADA specifically queried this figure in their response. Funnily enough, the paid liars never again addressed this issue.
 

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sittingbison said:
Still perpetuating the myth I see, cunningly slipped in with a humerous comment

The sudden jump from 500 to more than 600 tests was in Armstrongs paid liars brief to Judge Sparks. USADA specifically queried this figure in their response. Funnily enough, the paid liars never again addressed this issue.

They actually stepped away from that number in their later submissions. They continued to claim no positives. (I didn't think anyone here was still believing that myth.)

Interesting, in the first submissions they even claimed that Lance never doped. It seems to me this would now constitute perjury.
 
I responded to Scott’s question about plasticizer testing on another thread, but will do it again here. I believe there are no plans to develop the test, because DEHP-free blood bags are available, and now that the secret is out, riders will use them. There are also questions about false positives, though they seem to be pretty infrequent.

A test of one of LA’s stored samples, though, could be done, if he has any. Python, I think, might know if there are any stored samples from the years beyond 1999. The main problem is that DEHP levels fall rapidly back to baseline, within about forty-eight hours. So you would need a urine sample within that time frame. A pre-Tour transfusion, for example, almost certainly would not be caught. The best chance would be if LA transfused on a TDF rest day (just as many of us think Contador did), and then won the following stage, and/or was in yellow. Someone interested and with some spare time might go back and check how many times LA was in this window during his Tour reign, or I might get around to it. Then we could zero in on the samples—if there are any remaining—that would be mostly likely to test positive. If, as strip(title)-tease RR has hinted, there was a positive in 04 or 05, maybe it was for DEHP?

Tests for autologous blood doping, based on changes in older cells or in other markers, are under way, but there is none that has been accepted yet. Not sure what JV was referring to, but it might just be the same thing Ferrari told LA, that if you elevate levels of your natural EPO, it will make it more difficult to test positive for synthetic. Maybe someone can ask JV if he meant something else.

A key question I’d like to see answered, but probably won’t be (completely), is how much of an advantage LA had over others in the peloton due to a better doping program. The Clinic view, for a long time, has been that LA never showed promise as a GT rider, and therefore must not simply have doped, but had a better program, in some sense, that allowed him to ramp up his natural gifts far more than his competitors could.

Tyler’s remarks on 60m implied that everyone was doing basically the same thing, but it seems that in his book he suggests LA did have at least a subtle advantage. In her brief review of his book, Bonnie Ford says:

In Hamilton's telling, Armstrong just executed better, on the bike, in the pharmaceutical realm, and in securing protected status from the governing body of his sport: He trained hard, stayed on the leading edge of the curve of doping expertise, succeeded in having a positive test covered up. He profited hugely where others went broke.

But this raises another question for me. The stories coming out now suggest he had protection at multiple levels: 1) teammates acting as sentries to warn if testers showed up. 2) testers allowing him time after they showed up; 3) officials calling off a raid; and 4) a positive covered up. If he could be sure of having protection at higher levels—having raids called off or getting positives dismissed—he wouldn’t have to worry about testers showing up, or for that matter taking care to dope in a way that would not test positive. So why all the care at the lower levels? Could he not be certain of getting help from UCI (Tyler's telling of the TdS positive, as it has been reported, suggests LA was initially worried that he had tested positive)? Did UCI tell him they would bail out his a— once in a while, but that they couldn’t do it very often? Was it just typical LA attention to detail, building multiple barriers to testing positive, so if one failed another would work?
 
the big ring said:
Around 300 according to this lawyer's claim on Nightline, back in 2010:

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/vid...mstrong-floyd-landis-steroids-health-11240605

Apparently they snatched Lance off the streets of L.A. to conduct a test.

That is quite the growth. Two hundred more tests in two years. That is twice per week on average, and he was retired from cycling for half the time. Maybe Armstrong just likes taking tests for the fun of it or he like people watching him whizz into a cup.
 

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Merckx index said:
I responded to Scott’s question about plasticizer testing on another thread, but will do it again here. I believe there are no plans to develop the test, because DEHP-free blood bags are available, and now that the secret is out, riders will use them. There are also questions about false positives, though they seem to be pretty infrequent.

A test of one of LA’s stored samples, though, could be done, if he has any. Python, I think, might know if there are any stored samples from the years beyond 1999. The main problem is that DEHP levels fall rapidly back to baseline, within about forty-eight hours. So you would need a urine sample within that time frame. A pre-Tour transfusion, for example, almost certainly would not be caught. The best chance would be if LA transfused on a TDF rest day (just as many of us think Contador did), and then won the following stage, and/or was in yellow. Someone interested and with some spare time might go back and check how many times LA was in this window during his Tour reign, or I might get around to it. Then we could zero in on the samples—if there are any remaining—that would be mostly likely to test positive. If, as strip(title)-tease RR has hinted, there was a positive in 04 or 05, maybe it was for DEHP?

Tests for autologous blood doping, based on changes in older cells or in other markers, are under way, but there is none that has been accepted yet. Not sure what JV was referring to, but it might just be the same thing Ferrari told LA, that if you elevate levels of your natural EPO, it will make it more difficult to test positive for synthetic. Maybe someone can ask JV if he meant something else.

A key question I’d like to see answered, but probably won’t be (completely), is how much of an advantage LA had over others in the peloton due to a better doping program. Tyler’s remarks on 60m implied that everyone was doing basically the same thing, but it seems that in his book he suggests LA did have at least a subtle advantage. In her brief review of his book, Bonnie Ford says:



But this raises another question for me. The stories coming out now suggest he had protection at multiple levels: 1) teammates acting as sentries to warn if testers showed up. 2) testers allowing him time after they showed up; 3) officials calling off a raid; and 4) a positive covered up. If he could be sure of having protection at higher levels—having raids called off or getting positives dismissed—he wouldn’t have to worry about testers showing up, or for that matter taking care to dope in a way that would not test positive. So why all the care at the lower levels? Could he not be certain of getting help from UCI (Tyler's telling of the TdS positive, as it has been reported, suggests LA was initially worried that he had tested positive)? Did UCI tell him they would bail out his a— once in a while, but that they couldn’t do it very often? Was it just typical LA attention to detail, building multiple barriers to testing positive, so if one failed another would work?

Doping has become increasingly professionalized in sports. It is not just about "levels of protection" and "personal attention to detail". It is also about building a system that is precise and accurate. That is really what the USADA case is about, and it is one of the more novel aspects of this case. It is also what has been said about SkyTeam in 2012: probably the most sophisticated system ever in cycling history. USPostal was a prelude.
 

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Merckx index said:
But this raises another question for me. The stories coming out now suggest he had protection at multiple levels: 1) teammates acting as sentries to warn if testers showed up. 2) testers allowing him time after they showed up; 3) officials calling off a raid; and 4) a positive covered up. If he could be sure of having protection at higher levels—having raids called off or getting positives dismissed—he wouldn’t have to worry about testers showing up, or for that matter taking care to dope in a way that would not test positive. So why all the care at the lower levels? Could he not be certain of getting help from UCI (Tyler's telling of the TdS positive, as it has been reported, suggests LA was initially worried that he had tested positive)? Did UCI tell him they would bail out his a— once in a while, but that they couldn’t do it very often? Was it just typical LA attention to detail, building multiple barriers to testing positive, so if one failed another would work?

UCI did not always have control of the testing - sometimes AFLD had opportunities, and sometimes he was racing in the US where USADA may have been able to test are 2 examples.

Better to have redundancy in the system and practice it at all times.

At a guess he had to pay the higher ups (UCI for coverup) more and so having team mates watch corridors would be far less expensive given you already had their salaries covered by the team.

We have no idea who the collection people were either - or who employed them. Were some ex-pro cyclists? Did any of them idolise Lance?
 

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sittingbison said:
Like mafia families, every time Hein did something fur Lance aka 1999, he gained power over him. Lance owed him.

Lance cannot owe anyone, he cannot have power wielded over him, HE weilds the power. This give Hein as little opportunity as possible.

This seems to give more credit to Lance than he deserves. It is like suggesting the school bully controls the school principle.

Lance was and still is not much more than a gladiator. The arena is owned by others, even if he did have their phone numbers in his Blackberry.