Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[thehog]

Lance isn't interested in T&R. If he wanted to do some good he would have co-operated last year, but in his sick mind, he found it too emasculating.

Lance wants a new forum to sling some muck and attempt to drag people down to his level. Notice he talks about 'dopers from other eras' getting away with it. Doubt he means good pal Eddy; he wants to stir some more rubbish about Lemond.

Lance is VERY interested in T&R.

It's the only way he can sink the UCI without further complicating his legal position.

His problem is he's doing his best to avoid "conclusion" to dope which demonstrates the fraud.

T&R is what Lance needs as its an amnesty and will seen as such under the law.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This. Personally I don't believe that a T&R process would do the slightest bit of good, and in fact would more likely be manipulated by the worst offenders to get off the hook for past and current disgresions. In other words, little or no "truth" and lots of "reconciliation" (or amnesty).

Don't agree - think it would do a lot of good.
2 quick points, the T&R discussed last year was only for the riders, it did not extend to management, owners etc.
LA cannot get a full reduction, he would still be caught with an 8 year ban.

What's so sinister about wanting to save cycling, he just wants to give back. Maybe hero is the right term.

Actually if he did finally come clean then he would start to restore some small semblance of credibility. But so far it is just more words and if he doesn't act soon it will be too late.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Lance is VERY interested in T&R.

It's the only way he can sink the UCI without further complicating his legal position.

His problem is he's doing his best to avoid "conclusion" to dope which demonstrates the fraud.

T&R is what Lance needs as its an amnesty and will seen as such under the law.

Not so sure. I think T & R is his new shield. Keeps saying he wants it, but will never follow through because he can not be truthful without making his situation worse.

10$ says he will now continue to claim he wants to come forward, but somehow never ever will.

 

[Stingray34]

Lance is VERY interested in T&R.

It's the only way he can sink the UCI without further complicating his legal position.

His problem is he's doing his best to avoid "conclusion" to dope which demonstrates the fraud.

T&R is what Lance needs as its an amnesty and will seen as such under the law.

Could be, yes I could see that. Would any such amnesty actually protect him under US Tort law, though?

The plotting and waiting must be killing him, though - the man of action is out of service.

 

[Stingray34]

Not so sure. I think T & R is his new shield. Keeps saying he wants it, but will never follow through because he can not be truthful without making his situation worse.

10$ says he will now continue to claim he wants to come forward, but somehow never ever will.

thehog could have a point, but this is how I feel, too. Posturing, firing shots across bows and making promises he knows he will never have to keep has always been part of his MO.

 

[Zweistein]

thehog could have a point, but this is how I feel, too. Posturing, firing shots across bows and making promises he knows he will never have to keep has always been part of his MO.

If he wanted to, he could tear the UCI off its hinges and really fix the sport but he doesn't have the balls for that even though he is running out of things to lose.

 

[Benotti69]

Don't agree - think it would do a lot of good.
2 quick points, the T&R discussed last year was only for the riders, it did not extend to management, owners etc.
LA cannot get a full reduction, he would still be caught with an 8 year ban.

Most management and owners are ex riders.

Actually if he did finally come clean then he would start to restore some small semblance of credibility. But so far it is just more words and if he doesn't act soon it will be too late.

In order to regain any credibility IMO he would need to tell all and that would mean shopping USAC, UCI, Nike, Trek, Oakley, Subaru, Nissan etc as all parties to the greatest sporting fraud and that will not happen.

 

[Stingray34]

If he wanted to, he could tear the UCI off its hinges and really fix the sport but he doesn't have the balls for that even though he is running out of things to lose.

A scorched earth policy seems to be one of the most effective ways for Lance to redeem himself, at least among cyclists and the fans of the sport. Beyond whatever legal liabilities he could open himself up to, I'd have to agree with you: bullies like to hide in the shadows and feed off the status quo; Lance doesn't have the required initiative.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I have found myself in the position of defending Armstrong's position this past week, and let me be clear, I am defending his position, not his actions.

First, thehog is right as usual (tongue only partially in cheek ), T&R would be a way for Armstrong to spill some beans in a forum that is recognized as providing immunity--though if I were in a civil action against him in the US, I'd find a way to use his words if they benefited my case--and the UCI is probably terrified of that reality. Also, a person in his legal position now would be a fool to just blurt out a confession in public. He needs to do it in private for sure, and the fact he hasn't done so to Betsy is troubling, but that is a separate issue from being an idiot legally. As much as everyone can say "If I were in his position, I'd just pay every one their money no matter what even if that meant I was penniless in the end," most of them are full of sh*t. I certainly cannot say that if I were in his position, I would not look for the best legal deal I could get in any situation because I would. No doubt. So I am not going to slam him too harshly for his reluctance to spill the beans Floyd/Tyler style because the two situations are completely different.

Secondly, I don't know if I see him seeking to be reinstated at some point as that evil of a thing. The man likes to compete and wants to be able to do so on a level commensurate with his athletic talent. Sure the doping made him more successful than if he had been riding paniagua, but he is still a world class athlete regardless, and if he wants to compete with people close to his level, he will have to race with organizations he is currently banned from competing in. That doesn't make him Satan.

Lastly, I have a little bit of optimism that he is slowly moving in the right direction. In the past week, he has begun conversing with people on twitter that he has blocked for years. He even gave a shout-out to RR. Sure that is a weak, modern method, but it is a move in the right direction. As I stated many times, I had my own battle with substances, and I didn't get clean because I was a good person trying to get better, I got clean because the sh*t hit the fan and I had no options left. Nor did my turn-around happen quickly or without major mistakes and some back-sliding. That is just part of the game, and what he is going through is strikingly similar to what I have seen thousands of people go through to get clean and turn their lives again. I think encouraging him to do the right thing now is the best thing anyone can do because he appears to be open to the encouragement. Of course it could all be a ruse, but the truest thing I have ever heard is that almost no person is all good nor all bad. I think there is some good in Lance, and I think some of that may be coming out...maybe.

Call me a fanboy I guess...

EDIT: And let me state emphatically that his decision not to see Betsy was complete BS. From reading the emails, it seemed CLEAR that Betsy wouldn't have revealed a word about what they talked about in private. She deserves a personal apology.

 

[Benotti69]

If he wanted to, he could tear the UCI off its hinges and really fix the sport but he doesn't have the balls for that even though he is running out of things to lose.

Armstrong never gave a damn about the sport. He only entered the sport as he could make more money than competing in triathlons.

 

[python]

@ chewba

you have a sharp mind, good intentions and apparently a good heart, BUT in this instance i find you naive...a person with armstrong's history of total lack of humbleness - deeply hurting and intimidating people when he had other, more humane options can NOT be judged by the small steps on twitter.

in my book he has exhausted all normal options available to misguided or misstepped persons..he has to show a MAJOR step towards reconciling his past BEFORE i could trust him.

and most importantly, as you you insightfully pointed out, he is involved in several major suits and thus would be a complete idiot to do any major cleaning of his dirty past. thus, all his baby steps are another ploy to gradually make himself relevant to the naive public like yourself.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

@ chewba

you have a sharp mind, good intentions and apparently a good heart, BUT in this instance i find you naive...a person with armstrong's history of total lack of humbleness - deeply hurting and intimidating people when he had other, more humane options can NOT be judged by the small steps on twitter.

in my book he has exhausted all normal options available to misguided or misstepped persons..he has to show a MAJOR step towards reconciling his past BEFORE i could trust him.

and most importantly, as you you insightfully pointed out, he is involved in several major suits and thus would be a complete idiot to do any major cleaning of his dirty past. thus, all his baby steps are another ploy to gradually make himself relevant to the naive public like yourself.

It isn't naive, it is the fact that I refuse to foreclose goodness in people. I have known people who did some really horrible sh*t who turned their lives around. Things that make what Lance did seem like child's play. So my hope is based in that reality.

Please also understand that in no way do I say that to minimize what he did to people like Betsy, Emma, Mike Anderson, and others. He put them through hell. But there are worse things that people do to others.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

It isn't naive, it is the fact that I refuse to foreclose goodness in people. I have known people who did some really horrible sh*t who turned their lives around. Things that make what Lance did seem like child's play. So my hope is based in that reality.

Please also understand that in no way do I say that to minimize what he did to people like Betsy, Emma, Mike Anderson, and others. He put them through hell. But there are worse things that people do to others.

It is true that even the most heinous can redeem and contribute to society, but that doesn't make it any any way acceptable for him to have any involvement with sport.

Perhaps he could go off and start a charity or something...

Or better stil join closed a monastic order...

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

I have found myself in the position of defending Armstrong's position this past week, and let me be clear, I am defending his position, not his actions.

First, thehog is right as usual (tongue only partially in cheek ), T&R would be a way for Armstrong to spill some beans in a forum that is recognized as providing immunity--though if I were in a civil action against him in the US, I'd find a way to use his words if they benefited my case--and the UCI is probably terrified of that reality. Also, a person in his legal position now would be a fool to just blurt out a confession in public. He needs to do it in private for sure, and the fact he hasn't done so to Betsy is troubling, but that is a separate issue from being an idiot legally. As much as everyone can say "If I were in his position, I'd just pay every one their money no matter what even if that meant I was penniless in the end," most of them are full of sh*t. I certainly cannot say that if I were in his position, I would not look for the best legal deal I could get in any situation because I would. No doubt. So I am not going to slam him too harshly for his reluctance to spill the beans Floyd/Tyler style because the two situations are completely different.

Secondly, I don't know if I see him seeking to be reinstated at some point as that evil of a thing. The man likes to compete and wants to be able to do so on a level commensurate with his athletic talent. Sure the doping made him more successful than if he had been riding paniagua, but he is still a world class athlete regardless, and if he wants to compete with people close to his level, he will have to race with organizations he is currently banned from competing in. That doesn't make him Satan.

Lastly, I have a little bit of optimism that he is slowly moving in the right direction. In the past week, he has begun conversing with people on twitter that he has blocked for years. He even gave a shout-out to RR. Sure that is a weak, modern method, but it is a move in the right direction. As I stated many times, I had my own battle with substances, and I didn't get clean because I was a good person trying to get better, I got clean because the sh*t hit the fan and I had no options left. Nor did my turn-around happen quickly or without major mistakes and some back-sliding. That is just part of the game, and what he is going through is strikingly similar to what I have seen thousands of people go through to get clean and turn their lives again. I think encouraging him to do the right thing now is the best thing anyone can do because he appears to be open to the encouragement. Of course it could all be a ruse, but the truest thing I have ever heard is that almost no person is all good nor all bad. I think there is some good in Lance, and I think some of that may be coming out...maybe.

Call me a fanboy I guess...

EDIT: And let me state emphatically that his decision not to see Betsy was complete BS. From reading the emails, it seemed CLEAR that Betsy wouldn't have revealed a word about what they talked about in private. She deserves a personal apology.

Mostly not buying it. All of his moves are scripted, and performed simply to arrive at his next best alternative to reinstatement, which will never occur.
He does not feel that he should be required to tell the truth, and does not care about the future of cycling.

He is however still extremely vindictive and might defecate on the UCI if there was no downside for him. However, the UCI went to all lengths to derail USADA, and protect him so I am not sure he feels the need for that or if in fact there is a treasure chest of dirty little secrets to begin with.

The unblocking of Twitter followers is just a way for him to reconnect with what is being written about him and is not about a new outreach program.

My $.02

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Mostly not buying it. All of his moves are scripted, and performed simply to arrive at his next best alternative to reinstatement, which will never occur.
He does not feel that he should be required to tell the truth, and does not care about the future of cycling.

He is however still extremely vindictive and might defecate on the UCI if there was no downside for him. However, the UCI went to all lengths to derail USADA, and protect him so I am not sure he feels the need for that or if in fact there is a treasure chest of dirty little secrets to begin with.

The unblocking of Twitter followers is just a way for him to reconnect with what is being written about him and is not about a new outreach program.

My $.02

That all may be true. I am optimistic,but not unrealistic enough to foreclose this being the case.

 

[blackcat]

i am concerned that a sociopath can possibly alter this disposition. i think not. but i aint a psych

 

[ChewbaccaD]

i am concerned that a sociopath can possibly alter this disposition. i think not. but i aint a psych

I know narcissists who do the best they can.

 

[blackcat]

@ chewba

you have a sharp mind, good intentions and apparently a good heart, BUT in this instance i find you naive...a person with armstrong's history of total lack of humbleness - deeply hurting and intimidating people when he had other, more humane options can NOT be judged by the small steps on twitter.

in my book he has exhausted all normal options available to misguided or misstepped persons..he has to show a MAJOR step towards reconciling his past BEFORE i could trust him.

and most importantly, as you you insightfully pointed out, he is involved in several major suits and thus would be a complete idiot to do any major cleaning of his dirty past. thus, all his baby steps are another ploy to gradually make himself relevant to the naive public like yourself.

or...

bernie madoff wife

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Most management and owners are ex riders.

Ya, ex-riders. The T&R mentioned current riders.

In order to regain any credibility IMO he would need to tell all and that would mean shopping USAC, UCI, Nike, Trek, Oakley, Subaru, Nissan etc as all parties to the greatest sporting fraud and that will not happen.

Yes, he would need to do all that too. Full, frank testimony under oath - also agree that it is unlikely to happen.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

@ chewba

you have a sharp mind, good intentions and apparently a good heart, BUT in this instance i find you naive...a person with armstrong's history of total lack of humbleness - deeply hurting and intimidating people when he had other, more humane options can NOT be judged by the small steps on twitter.

in my book he has exhausted all normal options available to misguided or misstepped persons..he has to show a MAJOR step towards reconciling his past BEFORE i could trust him.

and most importantly, as you you insightfully pointed out, he is involved in several major suits and thus would be a complete idiot to do any major cleaning of his dirty past. thus, all his baby steps are another ploy to gradually make himself relevant to the naive public like yourself.

Good post, but I'm with Chewy on this one.

2 points need separating. His doping side & his personal side. His doping/deceit etc has been exposed and he has been sanctioned appropriately.
I would have no problem if he got some reduction or relief (current rules are an 8 year ban), but only with full disclosure.

For me what he did to others was worse than the doping.
Probably for the first time he has had to consider his actions, up until now in his view it was probably just a game. So I do hold out the possibility of genuine remorse. But so far it has not happened, even though some of his recent tweets appear to be in the right direction, other signs are less so - most notably agreeing and then backing out to meeting Betsy.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

That all may be true. I am optimistic,but not unrealistic enough to foreclose this being the case.

Your faith in humanity is awesome, and I am in total agreement on that front.
I just don't see an epiphany of that nature for LA prior to him hitting rock bottom.

 

[Aleajactaest]

Good post, but I'm with Chewy on this one.

2 points need separating. His doping side & his personal side. His doping/deceit etc has been exposed and he has been sanctioned appropriately.
I would have no problem if he got some reduction or relief (current rules are an 8 year ban), but only with full disclosure.

For me what he did to others was worse than the doping.
Probably for the first time he has had to consider his actions, up until now in his view it was probably just a game. So I do hold out the possibility of genuine remorse. But so far it has not happened, even though some of his recent tweets appear to be in the right direction, other signs are less so - most notably agreeing and then backing out to meeting Betsy.

I don't think you can separate the two right now. He can't possibly take the risk of trying to heal the personal wounds he inflicted until his legal issues are resolved. I don't dispute that they are separate problems but the solutions are entangled.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Good post, but I'm with Chewy on this one.

2 points need separating. His doping side & his personal side. His doping/deceit etc has been exposed and he has been sanctioned appropriately.
I would have no problem if he got some reduction or relief (current rules are an 8 year ban), but only with full disclosure.

For me what he did to others was worse than the doping.
Probably for the first time he has had to consider his actions, up until now in his view it was probably just a game. So I do hold out the possibility of genuine remorse. But so far it has not happened, even though some of his recent tweets appear to be in the right direction, other signs are less so - most notably agreeing and then backing out to meeting Betsy.

Agreed on all points, especially the bolded.

I have a friend here that is close with someone who worked with Lance for a long time. I didn't know this until a few weeks ago as he isn't in a cycling circle, I know him socially. He said his friend said it was exhausting a lot of the time because Lance was always "at war" with someone. I hope that is the thing he learns is useless in society. I can relate to that on a personal level, and while not as severe, I need to remember the same lesson. Being competitive is fine; in fact, it makes the economy spin, but vendetta and personal war serves neither side.

All that said, I really do believe there is some good in him--and I think even people like Betsy see that (not speaking for her in any way, it just seemed that the tone of her emails to him showed some optimism about that)--so I hope he learns that life is better in the positive. You don't have to destroy your enemies, in fact, you don't have to have enemies at all personally...not even ex-wives.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I don't think you can separate the two right now. He can't possibly take the risk of trying to heal the personal wounds he inflicted until his legal issues are resolved. I don't dispute that they are separate problems but the solutions are entangled.

Yes he can. I've seen it done. It does limit what you can do, but it does not foreclose the process completely, and not meeting with Betsy was the wrong thing to do.

 

[Berzin]

In the mercenary corporate environment that Armstrong lived in, what matters more than any one man is the corporation. And the corporation is a self-perpetuating, whirling dervish of ingrained administrative corruption that feeds on itself and the sport like a zombie plague. And it must continue to do so or it will die.

This is why Pat McQuaid is campaigning for another term as UCI president on the basis of what he thinks is a job well done on the doping front. He actually believes this in his cynical, hypocritical, heart of hearts.

As the figurehead of the corporate entity that represents all that is wrong with cycling, he will never willingly step down nor admit any semblance of incompetence, corruption, or collusion with Armstrong and Bruyneel.

For some reason, and I have no idea why, Armstrong chose not to throw the UCI under the bus. He could have saved himself, but he didn't. For all of his brash bravado and disingenuous posturing, he went down by himself, and is now standing on the outside looking in. Meanwhile his boys "Fat" Pat and Hein Verbruggen go on as if it's business as usual.

Armstrong is left to flail against the virtual "echo chambers" he believes played a role in his downfall, while impotently calling for some face-saving truth and reconciliation panel that will never materialize.

Having on online panel discussion with Betsy, Jonathan, and whomever else will amount to nothing but another in a long line of failed PR stunts that will get him nowhere.

Trying to remain relevant in the public sphere without coming totally and completely clean isn't going to work. See the fallout from the Oprah interview. Armstrong has to expose Dr. Ferrari, the UCI, and the whole drug network in which he was a major player. Why he won't is somewhat of a mystery.

Maybe it's because, like a true bully, he only enjoys picking on people he knows can't and/or won't fight back. A true punk.