Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Netserk]

George does not quote Lance's actual words, Word and George are not good friends. .....but he makes it clear that those words left George with the impression that Lance wanted to the team to take EPO.

t is possible Lance was talking about what flavor of gelato he would get after their ride.....but the far likelier possibility is that George was left with the understanding that Lance wanted the team to take EPO because that what thrust of the conversation.

Swart is more clear. He says that Lance stated strongly that if riders wanted to ride the Tour they needed to take EPO.

And I don't disagree with that.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Now you are using RR's favorite ploy, twisting words to meet preconceived expectations that support existing biases. People don't like to hear the Armstrong affair is more sordid and complex on the part of all sides instead of the Manichaeistic narrative promoted here. It is a simple view of the world favored by Americans. Systemic problems are blamed on individuals. Befuddlement ensues after the evildoer is removed and the the next in line, a product of the same environment, proves to be no different.

Everything Armstrong did has been recast to buttress the tale of a master manipulator. Take, for example, discussions at Motorola about EPO use. While Armstrong's position was solid evidence of his own drug use, it is a contortion to portray this as Armstrong pushing people into drug use. The talk at Motorola was not remarkable. As EPO use transitioned from a few individuals to entire teams, the same conversations that took place between Motorola riders happened at every team. The decisions to use EPO were not made by each rider cloistered with his only his own thoughts to guide him. They were made with input from teammates, staff, and friends in the peloton, all concerned for their jobs.

Armstrong is a realist. There were riders he used to be able knuckle down in the saddle and drop at will on small hills. As EPO spread, the same riders could cause him to red line on false flat as he struggled to hold their wheels. Since the drug was undetectable and the UCI had never shown an inclination to fight doping anyway, he instinctively knew this was the future. There was no stopping it.

The riders at Motorolo collectively decided to use EPO. More than just Armstrong argued for the realist view, and no one could make a convincing argument for how the team could survive without its use. In fact, one of the primary motivations that underlay the group decision for everyone to use during the 1995 Tour was quite mundane. Motorola was a comfortable, English speaking oasis in a European sport. Riders liked it there and were not enthused about moving to teams with a different culture if Motorola folded because of a lack of results. Armstrong himself was confident in his own ability to succeed if he was using the same tools as everyone else, but he wanted the team to stay together because of loyalty to his teammates even though by that time he considered himself a seasoned European pro and would likely be seeking a bigger contract from another team.

So this explains the Actovegin/HemAssist dalliances and then, of course, the reset in 1999.

Ain't it odd how many of the pee-pee samples re-tested positive belonged to LA.

Yep, LA was just like everyone else... tryin' best he could to salvage his career and pay a coupla bills.

 

[BroDeal]

George and Stephen Swart must have been lying in their affidavits when they say their team leader was saying it was time to start using EPO

So what? Armstrong's opinion was one of many. His opinion was correct. There was no way forward without the use of EPO. Armstrong cannot be blamed for stating an obvious truth, a truth that Hincapie backs up with his affidavit. For years the haters used the huge performance gain that comes from EPO to argue that it was impossible for Armstrong to have been competing clean against doped competition, but now they want pretend that the riders at Motorola could have stayed in the European peloton if they had not used it. You cannot have it both ways.

By 1995 EPO use had become so prevalent that Hincapie was finding it hard to hold on during races. Riders were openly talking about it. The conversation with Armstrong that has been puffed up by USADA was the culmination of a year of talking about how things had changed.

USADA deliberately left out the opinion of the other riders to make Armstrong look more culpable. Swart's affidavit does not even state the opinion he expressed during the conversation. Neither does Hincapie's. Armstrong was not the team's regent, and the other riders were not his peons. He was a regular rider on the team. No one started using EPO because Armstrong told him to. Riders began using EPO because the only other choice was to go home.

 

[Race Radio]

So what? Armstrong's opinion was one of many. His opinion was correct. There was no way forward without the use of EPO. Armstrong cannot be blamed for stating an obvious truth, a truth that Hincapie backs up with his affidavit. For years the haters used the huge performance gain that comes from EPO to argue that it was impossible for Armstrong to have been competing clean against doped competition, but now they want pretend that the riders at Motorola could have stayed in the European peloton if they had not to used EPO. You cannot have it both ways.

By 1995 EPO use had become so prevalent that Hincapie was finding it hard to hold on during races. Riders were openly talking about EPO. The conversation with Armstrong that has been puffed up by USADA was the culmination of a year of talking about how things had changed.

USADA deliberately left out the opinion of the other riders to make Armstrong look more culpable. Swart's affidavit does not even state the opinion he expressed during the conversation. Neither does Hincapie's. Armstrong was not the team's regent, and the other riders were not his peons. He was a regular rider on the team. No one started using EPO because Armstrong told him to. Riders began using EPO because the only other choice was to go home.

Nice Hogman.....er, strawman. You need to get the spin straight, It was not because of Lance, other riders, or Ferrari that George used EPO.....it was because of his hero Frankie the dealer/pusher.

 

[gooner]

So what? Armstrong's opinion was one of many. His opinion was correct. There was no way forward without the use of EPO. Armstrong cannot be blamed for stating an obvious truth, a truth that Hincapie backs up with his affidavit. For years the haters used the huge performance gain that comes from EPO to argue that it was impossible for Armstrong to have been competing clean against doped competition, but now they want pretend that the riders at Motorola could have stayed in the European peloton if they had not used it. You cannot have it both ways.

By 1995 EPO use had become so prevalent that Hincapie was finding it hard to hold on during races. Riders were openly talking about it. The conversation with Armstrong that has been puffed up by USADA was the culmination of a year of talking about how things had changed.

USADA deliberately left out the opinion of the other riders to make Armstrong look more culpable. Swart's affidavit does not even state the opinion he expressed during the conversation. Neither does Hincapie's. Armstrong was not the team's regent, and the other riders were not his peons. He was a regular rider on the team. No one started using EPO because Armstrong told him to. Riders began using EPO because the only other choice was to go home.

So what about Lance's conversation with Brian Smith?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

So what? Armstrong's opinion was one of many. His opinion was correct. There was no way forward without the use of EPO. Armstrong cannot be blamed for stating an obvious truth, a truth that Hincapie backs up with his affidavit.

Yes he can.

For years the haters used the huge performance gain that comes from EPO to argue that it was impossible for Armstrong to have been competing clean against doped competition, but now they want pretend that the riders at Motorola could have stayed in the European peloton if they had not to used EPO. You cannot have it both ways.

Come back, we miss you.

By 1995 EPO use had become so prevalent that Hincapie was finding it hard to hold on during races.

So?

Riders were openly talking about EPO.

So?

The conversation with Armstrong that has been puffed up by USADA was the culmination of a year of talking about how things had changed.

So? Lance "puff" up sh!t all the time. SSDD.

USADA deliberately left out the opinion of the other riders to make Armstrong look more culpable.

Don't know much about prosecution, do you? That was Armstrong's job to do...only he wussed out. Oh wait, you think our system should be one where the state both prosecutes and defends. It isn't like the evidence there wasn't known or available for Armstrong. He was there. He had direct knowledge of what was said. He had every opportunity to LEGALLY challenge the facts of the case. Go get another bottle Bro, Lance is thirsty.

Swart's affidavit does not even state the opinion he expressed during the conversation. Neither does Hincapie's. Armstrong was not the team's regent,

You've got to be fu*king kidding me?

and the other riders were not his peons. He was a regular rider on the team.

Who else had won $1million by paying off the other riders? Who else had WC stripes on his sleve?

No one started using EPO because Armstrong told him to. Riders began using EPO because the only other choice was to go home.

Yea, and that excuses Armstrong how exactly?

Read the charging letter. You are understandably focusing on one aspect, but are avoiding everything else. I would too if I were arguing such a flawed, and baseless position. You only brought one bottle? Lance needed two. Back to the car.

 

[Race Radio]

So this explains the Actovegin/HemAssist dalliances and then, of course, the reset in 1999.

Ain't it odd how many of the pee-pee samples re-tested positive belonged to LA.

Yep, LA was just like everyone else... tryin' best he could to salvage his career and pay a coupla bills.

Funny how the retro testing of the 99 samples show that Lance was not like everyone else, 50% of the positives came from one rider. Lance.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So what? Armstrong's opinion was one of many. His opinion was correct. There was no way forward without the use of EPO. Armstrong cannot be blamed for stating an obvious truth, a truth that Hincapie backs up with his affidavit. For years the haters used the huge performance gain that comes from EPO to argue that it was impossible for Armstrong to have been competing clean against doped competition, but now they want pretend that the riders at Motorola could have stayed in the European peloton if they had not to used EPO. You cannot have it both ways.

By 1995 EPO use had become so prevalent that Hincapie was finding it hard to hold on during races. Riders were openly talking about EPO. The conversation with Armstrong that has been puffed up by USADA was the culmination of a year of talking about how things had changed.

Sorry Bro, its not as good as the other post.

Is that the same Hincapie who told a Detroit paper that seeing his mentor have EPO had a major impact?

USADA deliberately left out the opinion of the other riders to make Armstrong look more culpable. Swart's affidavit does not even state the opinion he expressed during the conversation. Neither does Hincapie's. Armstrong was not the team's regent, and the other riders were not his peons. He was a regular rider on the team. No one started using EPO because Armstrong told him to. Riders began using EPO because the only other choice was to go home.

He was a regular rider on the team - a team player, who went along with the conversation (which he started) to use EPO.

Was he still just a regular rider on the team when he sought out Ferrari in 1995?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Nice Hogman.....er, strawman. You need to get the spin straight, It was not because of Lance, other riders, or Ferrari that George used EPO.....it was because of his hero Frankie the dealer/pusher.

George had never even considered EPO before he saw it in Frankie's fridge. He was a fu*king boy scout prior to that. He only used non-performance enhancing drugs. Nothing performance enhancing.

 

[Race Radio]

Armstrong was not the team's regent, and the other riders were not his peons. He was a regular rider on the team.

Comedy gold. You gotta take it all the way. "Lance was hardly even a rider, more of a waterboy. A gofer. Frankie was the leader"

 

[Race Radio]

George had never even considered EPO before he saw it in Frankie's fridge. He was a fu*king boy scout prior to that. He only used non-performance enhancing drugs. Nothing performance enhancing.

It is only a matter of time before the story is Frankie hooked the team up with Ferrari and taught them how to transfuse

 

[ChewbaccaD]

It is only a matter of time before the story is Frankie hooked the team up with Ferrari and taught them how to transfuse

I wish Frankie would get into Tri's and do as many in Texas as he could get to.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Funny how the retro testing of the 99 samples show that Lance was not like everyone else, 50% of the positives came from one rider. Lance.

Yep. But he wasn't pushing the envelope, mind you.

I can only imaging what Fernando Escartin was yelling as Lance other-worldly rode away from him up to Sestrierres.

Just tryin' to get by. Payin' my bills. "Hey man, could you pass me the backdated TUE 'cause I just tested posi for a cortico..."

 

[MarkvW]

Funny how the retro testing of the 99 samples show that Lance was not like everyone else, 50% of the positives came from one rider. Lance.

Lance doesn't half-step when it comes to dope!
EPO is like cancer fertilizer!

 

[MarkvW]

Yep. But he wasn't pushing the envelope, mind you.

I can only imaging what Fernando Escartin was yelling as Lance other-worldly rode away from him up to Sestrierres.

Just tryin' to get by. Payin' my bills. "Hey man, could you pass me the backdated TUE 'cause I just tested posi for a cortico..."

He was yellin' "Yo, man! Where you get that sh*t?"

 

[DirtyWorks]

Comedy gold. You gotta take it all the way. "Lance was hardly even a rider, more of a waterboy. A gofer. Frankie was the leader"

You forgot Betsy who, according to BroDeal's legend, was an obedient Lemond operative who, to this day, is willing to do anything to damage Armstrong's reputation.

And Greg Lemond himself as the Godfather of an American cycling mafia whose dominance was being challenged by a completely innocent Armstrong who may as well have won because, you know, he's that great.

You didn't know that Frankie got Armstrong and Hincapie started with Ferrari? How do you think they hired Del Moral? Yup, Frankie. My sources tell me something big will break real soon on this very topic!

Not only did BroDeal recently swallow a dictionary, he's started a telenovella!

 

[Granville57]

Comedy gold. You gotta take it all the way. "Lance was hardly even a rider, more of a waterboy. A gofer. Frankie was the leader"

"Back then, Lance had to call Betsy to ask for permission to even enter certain races. Frankie was the mouthpiece, but Betsy was both the brains and the brawn. Nobody messed with Frankie, and nobody, nobody, messed with Betsy. When Lance and George begged them not to make them dope, they laughed in their faces."

True story.

 

[Race Radio]

"Back then, Lance had to call Betsy to ask for permission to even enter certain races. Frankie was the mouthpiece, but Betsy was both the brains and the brawn. Nobody messed with Frankie, and nobody, nobody, messed with Betsy. When Lance and George begged them not to make them dope, they laughed in their faces."

True story.

Let me guess, you have a source?

Little known fact, Betsy spiked the risotto with EPO. Got Lance hooked. He was just an innocent, naive, kid who liked to ride his bike until Betsy "The Evil Queen" Andreu came into his life

Poor Lance.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Let me guess, you have a source?

Little known fact, Betsy spiked the risotto with EPO. Got Lance hooked. He was just an innocent, naive, kid who liked to ride his bike until Betsy "The Evil Queen" Andreu came into his life

Poor Lance.

Bingo - the reason Lance went to Ferrari was to get away from the Andreus.

This is all contained in the affidavits that USADA didn't release because it would show Lance as just a regular rider on the team.

 

[MarkvW]

How can you be an Assistant Director of the USPS team in 2001 and 2002 (as Frankie Andreu was), and not be up to your neck in the minutae of team doping?

"Frankie's gotta eat." might be the same thing a street level drug dealer says to the cop who has just busted him for the nth time.

 

[mewmewmew13]

H3ll I just heard from a source..a good one..that Lance doesn't really even like cycling…
he just wanted to be left alone to play golf but Betsy and Frankie and Greg forced him to get onto his bike and ride!
harsh!

 

[gooner]

Who's this source that BroDeal is referring to?

My guess is it's a sock or a slipper hanging about the place in Lance's house.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

How can you be an Assistant Director of the USPS team in 2001 and 2002 (as Frankie Andreu was), and not be up to your neck in the minutae of team doping?

"Frankie's gotta eat." might be the same thing a street level drug dealer says to the cop who has just busted him for the nth time.

Hi Mark,
That was because he was away from the cesspool of glorious doping in Europe running the domestic team.
Good effort though.

 

[the sceptic]

Who's this source that BroDeal is referring to?

My guess is it's a sock or a slipper hanging about the place in Lance's house.

maybe its the same top secret source that told Weather Radio Armstrong had been shopping the Hincapie story around for months until he suddenly found out he was going to plant it in the local Andreu newspaper instead.

 

[Scott SoCal]

How can you be an Assistant Director of the USPS team in 2001 and 2002 (as Frankie Andreu was), and not be up to your neck in the minutae of team doping?

"Frankie's gotta eat." might be the same thing a street level drug dealer says to the cop who has just busted him for the nth time.

Good grief.

Frankie was DS of the American domestic-based team. Big races then were the Redlands classic as an example. Nobody on that team was doing EPO or blood bags back then. Hell, not even every member of the Tour de France team was on that sort of the program.