Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[the sceptic]

I pick apart peoples statements - I don't pick apart the poster., unless of course they make it personal. Then its game on.

And just in case there is any misunderstanding, you have been IMO sniping at a lot of my posts, if you have a problem with me, then step up.
If not then do not bring me in to something that I am not involved in.

Who said anything personal against RR?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Who said anything personal against RR?

Did I mention RR in my post? No.

 

[the sceptic]

Did I mention RR in my post? No.

Sorry, I thought you implied that people ITT had been picking apart RR, not his posts. But Im glad you agree that he like everyone else should be queried on his inconsistencies.

 

[Berzin]

Quit the personal bickering everyone and stay on-topic.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It would throw a pretty major wrench in the works of what Armstrong has implied and what a lot of us have believed to be true, that his transformation from one-day rider to GT winner was due in large part to EPO Ferrari. If it's true, it gets a good bit more murky. It would certainly challenge my own understanding about what transpired.

#1 If Wonderboy utters some claim, it's probably not true. Probably. There is ample history of this behaviour and it hasn't changed.

#2 It's clear that Wonderboy was doped from a teen in Carmichael's doping program. What exactly? I doubt even Carmichael knows. So, every result is doped. Every one.

#3 Exactly when EPO was used by Wonderboy? Who knows. I seriously doubt we'll never know because of all the liars constantly lying. And I don't know that it would help. This is the beauty of the affidavits. They tell such a clear, compelling story about Wonderboy that there's not much need for anything else.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sorry, I thought you implied that people ITT had been picking apart RR, not his posts. But Im glad you agree that he like everyone else should be queried on his inconsistencies.

I have always said that.
This is very much part of your groupthink. I will correct you every time you bring it up.

 

[ChrisE]

#3 Exactly when EPO was used by Wonderboy? Who knows. I seriously doubt we'll never know because of all the liars constantly lying. And I don't know that it would help. This is the beauty of the affidavits. They tell such a clear, compelling story about Wonderboy that there's not much need for anything else.

So it is settled that LA's EPO use didn't start until 95?

 

[Eshnar]

Are you saying that when a poster says something and is queried on it, that's an attack on that poster?

I'm pretty confident I didn't write anything like that.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So it is settled that LA's EPO use didn't start until 95?

You keep bringing up the affidavits as some sort of point that LA was not on EPO pre 95 - where exactly did any of them state that?

 

[jens_attacks]

Excellent post with many pertinent questions. Here are my thoughts on the subject-

Pre-cancer, Armstrong was probably taking mass quantities of cortisone, testosterone and HgH, moreso in relation to the EPO. You can tell from his physique and his then-modest goal of being a good one-day, short stage racer.

When he came back in 1998, his ambitions changed along with his training and doping regimens. Ferrari probably got him on a plan where he used testosterone for recovery as opposed to recovery AND muscle building.

When used as recovery agents, you can go very light on the HGH and testosterone and still get results, but the results are going to be different than if you are hitting these products hard.

From what I understand Armstrong may have quit using HgH post-cancer, but no one really knows for sure because he hasn't stopped lying about anything even after he got busted.

same opinion as mine. for sure, it wasn't just about the dope, because before cancer he took crazy amounts. in order to be competitive in '96 it meant that you must have had nuclear reactors inside your body.


anyway we were talking these last days about chances dan martin won clean liege last year. but what you guys think are the odds of lance to do this without epo?

LBL 1994

1. BERZIN Eugeni 07:16:30
2. ARMSTRONG Lance 00:01:37
3. FURLAN Giorgio 00:01:37
4. CHIAPPUCCI Claudio 00:01:37
5. DELLA SANTA Stefano 00:01:37
6. ROMINGER Tony 00:02:03
7. SCIANDRI Maximilian 00:05:38
8. SALIGARI Marco 00:05:42
9. CENGHIALTA Bruno 00:05:52
10. ELLI Alberto 00:05:58
11. TCHMIL Andrei 00:05:58
12. BALLERINI Franco 00:05:58
13. PENSEC Ronan 00:05:58
14. BÖLTS Udo 00:05:58
15. PERON Andrea 00:05:58
16. VONA Franco 00:06:05
17. CASAGRANDE Francesco 00:06:17
18. ARGENTIN Moreno 00:06:17
19. VIRENQUE Richard 00:11:08
20. GONTCHENKOV Alexandre 00:11:08

 

[SundayRider]

Excellent post with many pertinent questions. Here are my thoughts on the subject-

Pre-cancer, Armstrong was probably taking mass quantities of cortisone, testosterone and HgH, moreso in relation to the EPO. You can tell from his physique and his then-modest goal of being a good one-day, short stage racer.

When he came back in 1998, his ambitions changed along with his training and doping regimens. Ferrari probably got him on a plan where he used testosterone for recovery as opposed to recovery AND muscle building.

When used as recovery agents, you can go very light on the HGH and testosterone and still get results, but the results are going to be different than if you are hitting these products hard.

From what I understand Armstrong may have quit using HgH post-cancer, but no one really knows for sure because he hasn't stopped lying about anything even after he got busted.

The other thing about Ferrari was the exclusivity clause he had with Armstrong. The good doctore was not allowed to service any other riders who were gunning for the Tour, so who else got to benefit from his expertise in the peloton for the Tour? No one. And this wasn't just for the Tour. Ferrari wasn't treating any of Armstrong's Tour rivals in any other races from what I can tell. They all had to go elsewhere. And as we have seen, if Ferrari was the # 1 doping guru, whoever was #2 was a sad second indeed.

Before he became a GC rider his arms/upper body were absolutely huge for a pro cyclist.

 

[Race Radio]

anyway we were talking these last days about chances dan martin won clean liege last year. but what you guys think are the odds of lance to do this without epo?

Zero. As I understand it he was using EPO in 1994. Started working with Ferrari in 95 (Or late 94)

 

[MarkvW]

Are you saying that when a poster says something and is queried on it, that's an attack on that poster?

It seems this only applies to RR, while someone like Dr. Mas can query and pick apart every statement.

Let's have some consistency here one way or the other. I read RR's Worlds comments exactly as ChrisE did. Inconsistent and backtracking. Since he is in the know, it would seem all the more reason to probe further when cryptic comments are made, and when people are called trolls in those cryptic comments.

I hope Styrbjorn doesn't mind me taking his quote out of context:

The rule of law is subordinate to the purity of his quest.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Zero. As I understand it he was using EPO in 1994. Started working with Ferrari in 95 (Or late 94)

Is it not late 95?
When Ferrari arrived in California?

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Excellent post with many pertinent questions. Here are my thoughts on the subject-

Pre-cancer, Armstrong was probably taking mass quantities of cortisone, testosterone and HgH, moreso in relation to the EPO. You can tell from his physique and his then-modest goal of being a good one-day, short stage racer.

According to Hendershot, Motorola was basically an all-you-can-eat buffet. Lance probably had all sorts of crazy side effects, muscle mass and water-weight.

Ferrrari most likely perfected his PED stack, and after cancer reoriented things around stage racing. Managing weight etc etc.

Then Lance added the exclusivity with Ferrari and got into the UCI's pockets and there ya go.

 

[Race Radio]

Before he became a GC rider his arms/upper body were absolutely huge for a pro cyclist.

When he was 20 maybe but he lost much of that quickly

 

[jens_attacks]

Zero. As I understand it he was using EPO in 1994. Started working with Ferrari in 95 (Or late 94)

as i thought of course

the big stars already found the miracle called eprex by 1993. in my mind there is close to zero chance, armstrong won the worlds only on low octane.

 

[DirtyWorks]

So it is settled that LA's EPO use didn't start until 95?

No, it's not. We don't know, and IMHO, isolating the date of first use of drug XYZ is an exercise in futility.

What's worse, is going down this path of figuring out when EPO use started is reinforcing the utterly false Lone Athlete Doper story.

As the Times/Hendershot story make clear, this is not a ONE DRUG, LONE ATHLETE story. You've got a complicit cycling federation, team and Olympic cycling federation owner Thom Wiesel seeking out and intentionally hiring doping doctors documented not once, but twice, Hendershot performing uncontrolled and ***completely*** inexpert human experimentation and athletes consuming a long list of drugs.

 

[Race Radio]

as i thought of course

the big stars already found the miracle called eprex by 1993. in my mind there is close to zero chance, armstrong won the worlds only on low octane.

To be fair there was also a huge amount of luck involved. There was crazy rain that day and the vast majority of riders dropped out. When he attacked the stars looked around at each other and did not chase

 

[SundayRider]

When he was 20 maybe but he lost much of that quickly

Yeah looks pretty lightweight in that photo. Remember reading 'Lance to Landis' ages ago and a team mate claiming he looked like a football player after returning from one off season.

 

[Race Radio]

Yeah looks pretty lightweight in that photo. Remember reading 'Lance to Landis' ages ago and a team mate claiming he looked like a football player after returning from one off season.

Yes, that would have been the first training camp after he started working with Ferrari.

At the time building muscle mass was a key part of Ferrari's program. There was no 50% level and if you did not have muscle your body would not absorb the massive amounts of oxygen your blood had. The result was riders going full gas and not showing any effort. Ferrari figured adding muscle in the off season with a combination of drugs then getting as slim as possible and maintaining muscle mass

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

To be fair there was also a huge amount of luck involved. There was crazy rain that day and the vast majority of riders dropped out. When he attacked the stars looked around at each other and did not chase

EPO came into the peleton first via the Dutch, then the Italians. Ask Rooks, Theunisse and co.

 

[Berzin]

At the time building muscle mass was a key part of Ferrari's program. There was no 50% level and if you did not have muscle your body would not absorb the massive amounts of oxygen your blood had. The result was riders going full gas and not showing any effort. Ferrari figured adding muscle in the off season with a combination of drugs then getting as slim as possible and maintaining muscle mass.

Who was the doctor that worked with Banesto when Indurain won his first tour?

Seems to me that whoever it was had the above figured out, because Big Mig definitely fit the description of the type of rider who would benefit most from the oxygen overload that EPO provided, especially if his rivals didn't have the expertise to exploit this drug at the time.

 

[Race Radio]

Who was the doctor that worked with Banesto when Indurain won his first tour?

Seems to me that whoever it was had the above figured out, because Big Mig definitely fit the description of the type of rider who would benefit the most from the muscle/oxygen overload that EPO provided.

Just the type of rider to benefit from EPO the most, especially if his rivals didn't have the expertise to exploit this drug.

Padilla and Conconi. Ferrari studied under Conconi

In the early days the biggest thing to figure out was when and how much to take. Riders just thought you could take as much as you want whenever you want. Beyond the death issue there was also the fact that EPO gets your body to start producing EPO, which does take energy. Later riders understood it was better to lower the dose and spread it out every 3 days so it was not as much of an impact on your body.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I like the story where Liggett says that the cancer completely changed his body and he came back a different rider.