Official Lemond doping talk thread

[Darryl Webster]

I think you have let this forum form your opinion of LeMond. He gets his props in here because he was likely the last clean tour winner and if its in fact true then that is an important point. This forum is not cycling's encyclopedia. To the latter bold, really?!? His business was almost ruined, many see him as bitter and jealous of LA, its hardly been a non stop party I would suggest. He's a hero in the forum but that doesn't count for crap.

Very well put. I think when it all comes down to it Lemond has been an Impecable Gentelman and thats what we admire so greatly. Its a rare attribute in elite sports and the respect it garnishes is often hard earnt cus Gentlemen get abused.

 

[buckwheat]

Great post!

In a way, this thread is one of the least useful and least productive of all time. Virtually meaningless.

Except that it has drawn more attention to the facts, which are:

1. There are no accusers who have come forward to support the poo slinging counterattacks of the una pelota fanaticas.
2. When the aforementioned fanatics who post the accusations are asked to substantiate their claims, they back pedal or scurry away like terrified rodents when a cat enters the room. Naturally, when someone mentions a lawyer, things get reallyquiet.

I have been in love with bicycles for thirty years. When I was a 9years young I bought my first ten speed. For the next ten years I rode various ten speeds around the army bases where I grew up for the pure speed and fun of it all. Call it a truly pure experience. I think of it that way.
When I was 17, I worked in a big bike shop in Dallas, where coincidentally a man named Greg Lemond came to visit after winning some bike race in France. I had no clue what professional bike racing meant before that. Lemond was my introduction, and it was one that painted the sport with a broad and bright stroke.
Now folks, down the road was another bike shop where a young kid named Lance Armstrong hung out. He and I were the same age. We went to rival high schools. (I finished.) Even then he had a reputation for being a bit brash. I really never heard a good thing about him.
Move forward ten years or so, and suddenly I find myself friends with him. We rode mountain bikes in the off-season. I built and repaired his bikes. Then I went to work for him. And during that time I quickly learned what pro cycling at that level was really about, and I was gutted to say the least. It almost ruined my enjoyment of the sport. During this period was the only time I ever heard anything bad about Greg Lemond, and it wasn't related to his doping, but rather his criticism of it. These comments came from only one source and was accompanied by a level of vitriol seen only when David Walsh's name came up.
Rather ironic, all of this talk of Greg Lemond taking PEDs. While he may not be perfect in his personal life, I believe firmly that his record as a cyclist is untarnished, and will remain that way until someone actually comes forward.
No one will.
Because it more than likely never happened.
I heard rumor after rumor about all sorts of things in the peloton.
Never about Greg Lemond doping.
Oddly enough that bright picture of the sport that he helped form in my mind as a young man is re-emerging, albeit after a bitter hiatus.
So, I'll add a few of you who keep slinging this nonsense to my ignore list; and will avoid feeding the trolls who clearly are trying to draw attention away from the real problem we've got.

I believe LeMond's incredible physical gifts and his horrible secret propelled his athletic success.

He's admitted marital infidelity and I'm sure that behavior has cost his psyche terribly, along with the difficulties with his children.

The other pure thing he had in life was cycling. I believe that for LeMond it was an end in itself and I don't believe he sullied the purity it represented for him.

I think LeMond rode for a lot of the same reasons TexPat rode. It just so happened that LeMond was supremely gifted. He reminds me of a real life Roy Hobbs.

 

[Angliru]

No, I'm not having a laugh.

I didn't really mean to say doping has served LeMond well. I meant to say his association with Armstrong and doping, PUBLICITY WISE, has served him well. Publicity is publicity, and I never said it was all positive.

His current profile is much higher now than it would be without Armstrong.

In one post you say that Lemond would be considered one of the States' greatest riders if not for Armstrong's accomplishments (IMO Lemond is still considered one of the great's regardless of Armstrong) and in the above quote you say his profile is higher I'm assuming because of the perpetual conflict that exists between the two. If there was no Armstrong, Lemond would unquestionably be the State's most accomplished cycling pro. His profile would likely be even higher than it is now because in my opinion he would be more respected and there wouldn't be those among the Armstrong camp/supporters that feel it is sacrilege to say anything positive about Lemond.

 

[andy1234]

In one post you say that Lemond would be considered one of the States' greatest riders if not for Armstrong's accomplishments (IMO Lemond is still considered one of the great's regardless of Armstrong) and in the above quote you say his profile is higher I'm assuming because of the perpetual conflict that exists between the two. If there was no Armstrong, Lemond would unquestionably be the State's most accomplished cycling pro. His profile would likely be even higher than it is now because in my opinion he would be more respected and there wouldn't be those among the Armstrong camp/supporters that feel it is sacrilege to say anything positive about Lemond.

If There were no Armstrong, the profile of cycling in the US, and by proxy LeMond, would be a fraction of what it is today. You only had to witness the mass exodus of US spectators from the tour following Armstrong's first retirement.

 

[pmcg76]

Jeez 21 pages and still nothing to hammer LeMond. I saw some guy post somewhere else that he had heard from a mechanic who worked part-time with 7-11 that it was common knowledge that LeMond doped. So common in fact that its never been mentioned anywhere else....ever.

I feel sorry for the 'LeMond doped' brigade as they can come up with nothing. Maybe I will help them out a little even if I dont think LeMond doped.

There were rumours swirling around the Renault team of 84 who dominated the Tour easily. Links with the infamous Mr.Mabuse have been muted but never confirmed.

LeMond says he never witnessed doping at Renault during his 4 years there which is not what Fignon said in his book suggesting the younger guys were curious to find out everything for themselves from the older guys.

The doctor linked to the ADR team was Yvan Van Mol who looked after Johan Museeuw and laters Patrick Lefevres team who have been accused of doping on numerous occassions.

In 89, an article appeared in the LA times shrotly after the Tour in which LeMonds former contract lawyer said that PDM management had encouraged their riders to dope.

In the last few seasons at Z/Gan, the team doctor was Francis Bellocq who was an advocate of hormonal equilibrium, a process that saw hormones being replaced when they became depleted. Bellocq died in early 1993.

Of course no actual proof anywhere but surely better than 'LeMond won a TT at record pace' or 'he came back from illness'.

 

[Benotti69]

this is taken from the 'Koechli & Helvetia/La Suisse-the clean team' thread and belongs here;

This thread is like..so last month but I wanted to update it anyway. I opened this thread seeking information on the Helvetia team and their director Paul Koechli. Koechli was a proponent of clean cycling and Helvetia were regarded as a clean team so I was trying to gather info on these claims. The thread then descended into a Steve Bauer doped/didnt dope mess and then headed of in several directions.

Even though I posed the opening question, lo and behold, what should I just come across in my own cycling library. From David Walsh's 1993 book, Inside the Tour de France, Chapter 10: The doctors tale.

Jean-Paul Van Poppel,(former 80s sprint star & director of Cervelo Test team, Vacansoleil next year) who was the subject of a seperate chapter in the book talking about doping.

"People see injections as doping. A man riding the Tour needs more vitamins than the normal person. In my mind what is not banned is not doping. But there are riders who ride the Tour de France without vitamins and all that stuff. Its possible".

"I know Paul Koechli's team(Helvetia), they never rode with any vitamins or anything else. He was against all of this. He doesnt like injections, just Supradine. No needles never. Its possible for a strong rider like Steve Bauer who rode for Koechli's team."

"Whatever happened to Koechli's ideas"

As if to answer the question, Walsh talks to the man himself, Paul Koechli who says his ideas were a success.

"I founded a company in Switzerland which controlled the team and I ran that team from 1988 to 92 without one needle. The process was more important to me that the results and I could do it because it was my team and I owned the company. I had the freedom to do it. We had less money but we had very good results. We had the yellow jersey in the Tour for 10 days, Steve was fourth in the 88 Tour and the many riders in my team became convinced it was possible to do this job without doing what so many had told them they should do".

Koechli's success with the La Vie Claire team in the 80s is also mentioned, the team won 2 Tours with Hinault & LeMond. The script continues:

Although he is reluctant to be specific, Koechli was not impressed by everything at La Vie Claire.

"About my experience in France, I cannot say no one ever took drugs. I never saw it but I know it happened. I changed the team because of this reason. The difficulty was at the time I went to La Vie Claire, the team was already built"

Central to Koechlis philosophy is the belief that cyclists take drugs because of a psychological dependence. Physically they dont need them, a view confirmed by the performance of Greg LeMond.

"I know that Greg, when he was in my team, did not use any stuff. I say that 200% certain and he won the Tour. So you can win the Tour without drugs. This is important because so many riders are dependant. It is like a ritual, they cannot live without them"

On Bauer & LeMond

"They had a different attitude, they had their own knowledge about training and physiology and that kept them away from what should not be done. They also had strong personalities and so they could resist. But if you have grown up in a bad environment, it is vey difficult to resist."

Bernard Tapie who funded the La Vie Claire said Bauer & LeMond were the only two riders he was sure didnt use drugs.

All very interesting stuff I think, a clean team and possible to win the Tour cleanly, well in the 80s at any rate. Please note this book was from 1993 when doping was not talked about at all in comparison to today and most directors woulndnt even entertain the subject. Also, there is no Lance v LeMond agenda here becaue well Lance wasnt anybody at that stage and LeMond was still racing, Koechli is simply telling it like he saw it. Believe what you want.

cheers pmcg76.

 

[pmcg76]

One myth I do see about LeMonds comeback is that it was only after the iron injection at the 89 Giro that his form improved. Not true.

He actually had a very good start to the 89 season, he finished 3rd at Tour of Americas, 17th at Het Volk, 6th at Tirreno-Adriacto and 4th at Criterium International(behind Indurain, Roche, Mottet) Good results for a Tour contender but his form then suddenly slumped and he was even struggling at Tour de Trump. LeMond himself said he thought he was back to form based on his early season results but his form just disappeared. It is clear that it was due to health problems that he was suffering.

 

[flicker]

I believe LeMond's incredible physical gifts and his horrible secret propelled his athletic success.

So true. I believe that some trauma has brought many to cycling and helped them achieve greatness.

Some of us are even still going through the trauma.

 

[scribe]

If any former rider with a family fortune measured in the hundreds of millions of dollars were to sue a forum poster - it would be Greg lol.

That would be a GREAT trial!

LeMond vs flicker.
A team of high priced lawyers vs flicker with a public defender.
Pick me for the jury pick me pick me.

I am sure you don't realize this, but he has been tape recording this entire conversation.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I believe LeMond's incredible physical gifts and his horrible secret propelled his athletic success.

So true. I believe that some trauma has brought many to cycling and helped them achieve greatness.

Some of us are even still going through the trauma.

I'd have to agree. Although I used to tell riders that 'spite can be one of the greatest motivators in cycling'. Nothing like attacking someone you don't like when they're in difficulty... Check out the vids posted in the Helvetia thread for some explicit examples...