Official Lemond doping talk thread

[Benotti69]

Not a great comparision though, because the two you mention were far better riders.

2 dopers still in denial better than LeMond. how do you figure that? not that you can really compare Ullrich. When LA wasn't on epo he could do nowt in the tour, yes he won a stage, compared to LeMond. Ullrich came from the Former Republic of Dopeland.

 

[flicker]

Well done Barrus.
I've been dipping in and out of the clinic today and the rubbish from a small pack of jokers, using baseless Lemond jibs as a smokescreen for real issues surrounding Armstrong, has ruined all discourse.

Make 'em shape up, or ship 'em out I say.

To many people in cycling take themselves to seriously, that is why I am a jokester. You notice whom I make fun of most of is myself. I will be the first to tell you that I am a nobody in the cycling world.

My issue with LeMond is he raced against dopers his whole career and then has taken a stand against Armstrong. Why, I have told you many times he is jealous and bitter.


If you do not believe me ask people who know him personally.

As far as a doper I heard he doped one time in a pursuit team or TT at an international meet. Mind you at an amatuer level. He was DQd at a race here in my town for improper gearing as a junior. I do not care about that. It is curious that he blamed the gearing infraction on his Dad.

If he doped one time with PEDs he should come out and admit it. I do not care one way or another. I just do not like hippocrites, which I think Greg is. What LeMond presents himself as, which in my opinion is a pillar of virtue I believe is a farce, no different than what the haters here comment upon about Lance.

If anyone here doesn't like my sense of humor that is their problem.

Nevertheless Greg is a great champion, the best cyclist I ever raced against or saw in person. That includes every rider I watched at the Tour of California.(Except for Lance, who as we all know is over the hill)

The thing about pot who cares, it may be legal in California tomarrow. Tim Lincecum and that Olympic swimmer smoked it it is not a PED.

 

[Digger]

To many people in cycling take themselves to seriously, that is why I am a jokester. You notice whom I make fun of most of is myself. I will be the first to tell you that I am a nobody in the cycling world.

My issue with LeMond is he raced against dopers his whole career and then has taken a stand against Armstrong. Why, I have told you many times he is jealous and bitter.


If you do not believe me ask people who know him personally.

As far as a doper I heard he doped one time in a pursuit team or TT at an international meet. Mind you at an amatuer level. He was DQd at a race here in my town for improper gearing as a junior. I do not care about that. It is curious that he blamed the gearing infraction on his Dad.

If he doped one time with PEDs he should come out and admit it. I do not care one way or another. I just do not like hippocrites, which I think Greg is. What LeMond presents himself as, which in my opinion is a pillar of virtue I believe is a farce, no different than what the haters here comment upon about Lance.

If anyone here doesn't like my sense of humor that is their problem.

Nevertheless Greg is a great champion, the best cyclist I ever raced against or saw in person. That includes every rider I watched at the Tour of California.(Except for Lance, who as we all know is over the hill)

The thing about pot who cares, it may be legal in California tomarrow. Tim Lincecum and that Olympic swimmer smoked it it is not a PED.

If your career was cut short by EPO, and you were clean, would you be annoyed?

 

[kielbasa]

Not a great comparision though, because the two you mention were far better riders.

Thanks for stating the obvious, but we're talking about natural talent. Everyone was "better" around 2000.

Incidentally, Zabriskie holds the record for the fastest TT in the Tour, not Lemond. For some reason that error still gets repeated here.

 

[AngusW]

I just do not like hippocrites, which I think Greg is.

You are wrong! And so is your spelling.

Greg LeMond is many things, but he is not Hippocrates.

This is Hippocrates...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocrates

 

[flicker]

If your career was cut short by EPO, and you were clean, would you be annoyed?

Yes, but for your information no amount of EPO or any of that crap would make this donkey anything but what he is a donkey. That is me, slow and getting slower.

Greg was on the downward swing of his career+ carrying the lead he carries in his body could not be good for him as an athlete, no?

If Greg made a stink about EPO in the early 90s I would have more respect for Greg.

 

[Race Radio]

Hard to repeat these talking points without paying tribute to their source, Armstrong's obsession with LeMond.

That case made it clear that Armstrong became obsessed with smearing Lemond after Greg said this

'When Lance won the prologue to the 1999 Tour I was close to tears, but when I heard he was working with Michele Ferrari I was devastated. In the light of Lance's relationship with Ferrari, I just don't want to comment on this year's Tour. This is not sour grapes. I'm disappointed in Lance, that's all it is'

Pretty tame quote, a sentiment that was likely shared by the vast majority of fans. Armstrong has a long history of being vindictive towards anyone that questions the myth and he set out to ruin Greg.

He called Burke and got him forced Greg to write an apology with the threat that he would lose his main source of income. Lance called other LeMond business partners and encouraged them to take advantage of Greg's moment of weakness.

Armstrong hired a PR Firm, Public Strategies, to develop the narrative that leMond was a deranged stalker. For a while it worked. People still write today about Greg being crazy....but they cannot pinpoint an example that supports this. The press was naive about Armstrong and the sport....they would repeat whatever talking points they were given.

Armstrong threated Greg. Told him he would find 10 people who said he took EPO. He and Johann started reaching out to former teammates and support staff with offers of cash if they invented a story of Greg doping. There were no takers. They thought they had one, the amount got up to $300,000, but in the end they found nobody who would lie for money.

 

[flicker]

You are wrong! And so is your spelling.

Greg LeMond is many things, but he is not Hippocrates.

This is Hippocrates...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocrates

I would tr4y to come back with a snappy comeback but my mind is all in a TWITTER!

 

[compete_clean]

Although a regular forum user, and I think it is Flicker, repeatedly claimed that a former pro who was on the same team as Greg, told him that Greg doped. I have also told this

I know who the person is and let me clarify a couple of things:

1. The guy was only briefly a teammate of LeMond. I just checked cycling archives and he might have raced on the same team as LeMond for a couple of years although I can't remember them actually racing together in races.

2. He doesn't know that GL doped. He has told a few people in the US, connected with cycling, that he 'thinks' GL doped in 1989 (EPO).

 

[Race Radio]

One of the more popular talking points is "They all doped" The fact is they all did not. PMCG76 said it best

They seem to ignore the people in the know like Laurent Fignon who said it was possible to win clean in the 80s even though he doped himself.

Like Willy Voet who said there were clean top riders like Charly Mottet despite naming countless people who did dope.

Like Paul Koechli, who ran a clean team in Helvetia/La Suiise without any needles and said LeMond won the Tour clean. Before people say that was because he was his manager, Koechli never said Hinault won the tour clean and he was his manager too. Bernard Tapie, owner of the team said the only guys he knew that definitely didnt dope were LeMond and Bauer, not Hinault, not Bernard.

Like Peter Winnen who says it was possible to win clean in the 80s but everything changed with EPO.

These poster are not just refuting other posters, they are refuting guys from that period who were involved in cycling, people who have said they doped themselves or that doping was present.

The fact is doping in the 80's was all about recovery and racing 200 days a year. Most products could be tested for and none would enable you to suddenly climb 13% faster like EPO.

 

[scribe]

LeMond does not believe in miracles, hope or Unicorns. He does believe in Cancer.

LeMond is a French name.....think about it.

We have found common ground!

 

[Altitude]

Prior to EPO, definitely not. After EPO, I would say fair enough to your comment. A doped a** never won the Derby was still true prior to EPO. This changed though with EPO.

If you couldn't win in the 50s and 60s without drugs, chances are you couldn't in the 80s either.

 

[scribe]

.... that he 'thinks' GL doped in 1989 (EPO).

Well. That's good enough for us in the clinic.

 

[Race Radio]

Another common talking point by the Groupies is why is it only now that Greg talks about drugs? Blah, Blah, Lance, Jealous, blah

The fact is Greg has always been Anti doping. It became obvious when he started working with Koechli and more so when he left PDM. They wanted to start a team wide doping program that he wanted no part of

LA times story

He gave interviews in the 90's (Before Armstrong ever won a Tour) about the destructive effects of Italian doping doctors (Ferrari)
http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/lemond98.html

Both publicly and privately Greg has been anti doping for decades. Why? Not because he was jealous of Lance
http://greglemond.com/blog/doping-and-those-we-love/

 

[Digger]

If you couldn't win in the 50s and 60s without drugs, chances are you couldn't in the 80s either.

See post by RR above.

Fignon's book says it all for me. He admits to doping but says the things he saw with the advent of EPO just unbelievable.

Willy Voet says that Mottet never doped. Caritoux won the Vuelta in the 80s whilst clean. No one says that you couldn't win in these periods while clean.

 

[redtreviso]

I'm glad Greg LeMond psss's in Armstrong's wheaties. If I was him I wouldn't tell someone what time it was without hosing forth on LA's wheaties.

 

[Race Radio]

If you couldn't win in the 50s and 60s without drugs, chances are you couldn't in the 80s either.

Maybe you could not but Charly Mottet, Giles Delion, Helvetia/LaSuisse, Greg LeMond, Steve Bauer, Christophe Bassons, Nicolas Aubier, Eric Caritoux, etc, etc, did.

 

[Digger]

Yes, but for your information no amount of EPO or any of that crap would make this donkey anything but what he is a donkey. That is me, slow and getting slower.

Greg was on the downward swing of his career+ carrying the lead he carries in his body could not be good for him as an athlete, no?

If Greg made a stink about EPO in the early 90s I would have more respect for Greg.

Again I would ask you to read Fignon's book. Even Fignon had no idea that EPO usage was so prevalent. He was old school like Lemond and reckons he was one of the last to figure out what was going on. All he knew was that the speeds were mental, just like Greg. In fact, their experience of EPO is almost identical - he blamed age, lack of fitness etc and simply did not want to believe that he was racing against EPO warriors.

 

[Altitude]

See post by RR above.

Fignon's book says it all for me. He admits to doping but says the things he saw with the advent of EPO just unbelievable.

Willy Voet says that Mottet never doped. Caritoux won the Vuelta in the 80s whilst clean. No one says that you couldn't win in these periods while clean.

It's important to understand that the guys who were considered clean by the rest of the peloton weren't actually clean. And of course you aren't going to have guys providing candid statements like Coppi or Anquetil because by the 80's that "omerta" everyone is always talking about around here was strong.

Fignon was a great champion, but of course he'll say it was possible to win without drugs because it makes his wins more credible. "Yeah I doped, but that's not the reason I won"

 

[Race Radio]

It's important to understand that the guys who were considered clean by the rest of the peloton weren't actually clean. And of course you aren't going to have guys providing candid statements like Coppi or Anquetil because by the 80's that "omerta" everyone is always talking about around here was strong.

Fignon was a great champion, but of course he'll say it was possible to win without drugs because it makes his wins more credible. "Yeah I doped, but that's not the reason I won"

Not exactly. There have been plenty of riders and writers who have talked about doping in the 80's. They have talked about who was clean and who was charged. LeMond has always been talked about as clean. Hampsten, Mottet and others as well.

If they were not "Actually clean" then please provide us with some evidence that they were not. Right now you have teammates, DS', and support staff saying they were......do you know something they don't?

 

[BullsFan22]

I am not really sure who or what to believe anymore. I know of stories that quite a lot of amateur riders doped in the old days, and I am sure quite a few of today's amateurs do as well. As far as pros are concerned, the GT's are stacked with dopers, whether they believe in fairness or not, they have no other choice if they want to win or reach their goals of a high finish or stage wins. You can't possibly believe that somebody wanting a high place in the GC is gonna race three weeks with only two rest days, long transfers, without some sort of 'outside help.' LeMond seems to be quite different, and if what most of you say about him is true, the fact that he's been actively involved in anti-doping for decades, then I have even more respect for him, even though I am not 100% sure he didn't dope. Lance however, is another story.

 

[Altitude]

Maybe you could not but Charly Mottet, Giles Delion, Helvetia/LaSuisse, Greg LeMond, Steve Bauer, Christophe Bassons, Nicolas Aubier, Eric Caritoux, etc, etc, did.

And you know this to a certainty? Please, provide your evidence. I do not claim to "know" that Lemond doped, only that I highly suspect he did. You on the other hand seem to be positive that he didn't. There is no chance that Greg Lemond took PED's at any point in his career? If your answer to that is "yes" then you are being extremely obtuse.

By the way, I happen to know someone who raced with Bauer and he gives a slightly different version.

 

[Digger]

And you know this to a certainty? Please, provide your evidence. I do not claim to "know" that Lemond doped, only that I highly suspect he did. You on the other hand seem to be positive that he didn't. There is no chance that Greg Lemond took PED's at any point in his career? If your answer to that is "yes" then you are being extremely obtuse.

By the way, I happen to know someone who raced with Bauer and he gives a slightly different version.

based on the fact that he won? That's all?
Also, do you believe anyone ever won clean?

 

[Altitude]

based on the fact that he won? That's all?
Also, do you believe anyone ever won clean?

Maybe pre WWI. And of course Lance!

 

[flicker]

Maybe pre WWI. And of course Lance!

WW1, are Pot Belge and Bromptons' Cocktail considered doping? I am kind of naive. How about Benzedrine and dexedrine. Are those doping products. I want to know because I am clueless.