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Re: Re:
I’m not going to rag on Valverde ... as juiced as he was. But your double standards ... make me think you be hanging wit dee real Omertà lads. Sans logique.
ClassicomanoLuigi said:
I’m not going to rag on Valverde ... as juiced as he was. But your double standards ... make me think you be hanging wit dee real Omertà lads. Sans logique.
Re: Re:
There is no doping program that can turn you into one of the best in the world at aerobic, anaerobic and neuromuscular intervals, unless you are already an extreme talent.
You're only looking at talent in a very narrow way there - by looking at results. Try looking at power profiles instead; any athlete who can put out w/kg in the top 5% of the WT peloton for 60 minute, 3 minute and 10 second efforts is an incredible natural talent - doping or not.brownbobby said:
There is no doping program that can turn you into one of the best in the world at aerobic, anaerobic and neuromuscular intervals, unless you are already an extreme talent.
Re: Re:
I agree with you 100%.....now trying telling that to all the people in this forum who claim that a certain Mr. Froome (apologies, I know this is the Valverde thread) has zero natural talent.
DFA123 said:
I agree with you 100%.....now trying telling that to all the people in this forum who claim that a certain Mr. Froome (apologies, I know this is the Valverde thread) has zero natural talent.
Re: Re:
Although I do agree that Froome clearly has shown some natural talent before his transformation. You don't make it out of the Kenya/South Africa cycling scene if you are a genuine donkey - let alone finish 32nd in the Giro.
Well Froome is a different case. He has poor anaerobic and neuromuscular power for a pro rider, he doesn't have the insane rounded power profile like the really talented guys (Merckx, Sagan, Valverde, Hinault etc.. who could do everything on a bike). It's certainly possible to have a huge aerobic engine thanks to doping, yet not be especially naturally talented.brownbobby said:
Although I do agree that Froome clearly has shown some natural talent before his transformation. You don't make it out of the Kenya/South Africa cycling scene if you are a genuine donkey - let alone finish 32nd in the Giro.
Re:
1- They hate to see someone that turns from donkey to racehorse and
2- Someone who start selling the BS of technology, big heart, high cadence, illnesses, cancer, etc, to justify their doping, and in the process taking all cycling fans as idiots.
I think that's what it is.
I don't agree with you. What I think happens here in this forum is that:Zinoviev Letter said:
1- They hate to see someone that turns from donkey to racehorse and
2- Someone who start selling the BS of technology, big heart, high cadence, illnesses, cancer, etc, to justify their doping, and in the process taking all cycling fans as idiots.
I think that's what it is.
Re: Re:
I think it is a double standard in a way but fans in here are willing to give him a pass given his history and his consistent performances throughout the years.
At least these dopers get the benefit of the doubt about the talent.brownbobby said:
I think it is a double standard in a way but fans in here are willing to give him a pass given his history and his consistent performances throughout the years.
Re: Re:
a) an African gets just the same opportunities as someone from a cycling heartland. They should progress just the same.
b) Science is rubbish
So essentially it's xenophobia and ignorance. What you are all clinging to is some sort of cycling traditionalism. It's the same as Brexit and Trump supporters clinging to a distant era.
So in essence their anger is thatEscarabajo said:
a) an African gets just the same opportunities as someone from a cycling heartland. They should progress just the same.
b) Science is rubbish
So essentially it's xenophobia and ignorance. What you are all clinging to is some sort of cycling traditionalism. It's the same as Brexit and Trump supporters clinging to a distant era.
Re: Re:
I disagree. That is the case now, but only because of the Froome /Sky situation. In the past there is bias towards certain types of riders.
For an example look at Cadel Evans who I followed since 1999. Evans does not fit your definition but was never accepted here besides his squeaky voice and quirky personality. Evans always showed talent from 1999 and after his 2009 World's win (BTW, where was Valverde?) could not be accused of being a wheel sucker and had the misfortune of his career running into a certain Alberto Contador.
Valverde is obviously a supreme talent but watching him ride does not inspire me. He is despite now 37 years old, just stronger than most sits in the wheels and has a sprint virtually unrivalled by any other rider who can both climb big cols and TT. Timid tactics and courage have always been the chinks in his armour but largely ignored in these forums.
As far as doping is concerned I put Valverde in the same box as Tonton.
Escarabajo said:
I disagree. That is the case now, but only because of the Froome /Sky situation. In the past there is bias towards certain types of riders.
For an example look at Cadel Evans who I followed since 1999. Evans does not fit your definition but was never accepted here besides his squeaky voice and quirky personality. Evans always showed talent from 1999 and after his 2009 World's win (BTW, where was Valverde?) could not be accused of being a wheel sucker and had the misfortune of his career running into a certain Alberto Contador.
Valverde is obviously a supreme talent but watching him ride does not inspire me. He is despite now 37 years old, just stronger than most sits in the wheels and has a sprint virtually unrivalled by any other rider who can both climb big cols and TT. Timid tactics and courage have always been the chinks in his armour but largely ignored in these forums.
As far as doping is concerned I put Valverde in the same box as Tonton.
Re: Re:
Even the Evans fans around here admit he was a hardcore wheel sucker. After winning the Worlds he became a bit more adventurous, but even then was still one of the most defensive riders around. That's by far the biggest criticism of him around here.
Another reason he wasn't well seen is that he came from MTB, generally regarded in those days as a cesspool that managed to be dirtier than road cycling, which was quite a feat back then.
Being a Ferrari client and having Max Testa as doctor were also factors.
No they haven't been. He's constantly and rightfully criticized here for those flaws. Go into the Strade Bianche topic, there's several posts saying that in the last 24 hours alone.
I feel there's another large reason the Valverde doping criticism is lowered these days compared to what it used to be. Quite simply, after so many years everything about it has been said several times over. People ran out of things to say about it a long time ago. There's no new evidence in...what? A decade?
Add that everyone has the same opinion with small differences (doper but talented) and there's nothing to discuss. So people don't talk about it much. A discussion thrives on differing viewpoints so if everyone agrees what's there to say?
Cookster15 said:
Even the Evans fans around here admit he was a hardcore wheel sucker. After winning the Worlds he became a bit more adventurous, but even then was still one of the most defensive riders around. That's by far the biggest criticism of him around here.
Another reason he wasn't well seen is that he came from MTB, generally regarded in those days as a cesspool that managed to be dirtier than road cycling, which was quite a feat back then.
Being a Ferrari client and having Max Testa as doctor were also factors.
Cookster15 said:
No they haven't been. He's constantly and rightfully criticized here for those flaws. Go into the Strade Bianche topic, there's several posts saying that in the last 24 hours alone.
I feel there's another large reason the Valverde doping criticism is lowered these days compared to what it used to be. Quite simply, after so many years everything about it has been said several times over. People ran out of things to say about it a long time ago. There's no new evidence in...what? A decade?
Add that everyone has the same opinion with small differences (doper but talented) and there's nothing to discuss. So people don't talk about it much. A discussion thrives on differing viewpoints so if everyone agrees what's there to say?
When you say bias towards certain types of riders, what kind of bias? For sure, Evans wasn't well liked, but I have a hard time to see what that had to do with the clinic. For most of his career he was whiny, insecure, and always with a chip on his shoulder. His riding style wasn't charming, nor was his personality. On top of that, he (like Froome) wasn't pleasant for the eye either (on the bike).
Whatever makes one cheer for a rider, it's difficult to see why any non-Aussies would cheer for him, and as he was often in contention for races, it's natural that as the opponent of riders one did cheer for, that he would be disliked.
Whatever makes one cheer for a rider, it's difficult to see why any non-Aussies would cheer for him, and as he was often in contention for races, it's natural that as the opponent of riders one did cheer for, that he would be disliked.
No Evans fan (or even honest non fan) thought he was a wheel sucker after the 2009 worlds. My comments were in the context of Escarabo's two points. I am also commenting in the context of the love in for Valverde above by several posters. Some of this love is well earned. But much is not well earned, he is just very strong and has a sprint not possessed by any other GC rider. Tonton helped balance this so I just added my 2c worth as I dropped in to see what was being discussed after Strade Bianche.
Re: Re:
Sorry. You lost me somewhere in your words that I do not understand. I thought I was clear, but I have a hard time trying to find the connection between what I said and xenophobia, science is rubbish, Africa and last but not least Trump.
I don't have a problem with Froome and Valverde. I really don't care about the rubbish about marginal gains that they are trying to sell. If you believe is science is your problem, not mine. And please do not try to convince me. I am too old and I have been watching cycling for too long.
And about Trump, please stick to the subject because I found that remark offensive.
Thanks.
Parker said:
Sorry. You lost me somewhere in your words that I do not understand. I thought I was clear, but I have a hard time trying to find the connection between what I said and xenophobia, science is rubbish, Africa and last but not least Trump.
I don't have a problem with Froome and Valverde. I really don't care about the rubbish about marginal gains that they are trying to sell. If you believe is science is your problem, not mine. And please do not try to convince me. I am too old and I have been watching cycling for too long.
And about Trump, please stick to the subject because I found that remark offensive.
Thanks.
Re: Re:
Ok. We agree to disagree. Before Froome there was the Texan. Similar situation. It started earlier than Froome.Cookster15 said:
BTW, I didn't like Valverde that much at the beginning, but in the last 3 years I have to admit his consistency and domination is something that you have to be amazed of.
Re:
Miracles don't exist in cycling and you should only be amazed by exciting racing, not Valverde's ultra passive behaviour during big races.
Escarabajo said:
Miracles don't exist in cycling and you should only be amazed by exciting racing, not Valverde's ultra passive behaviour during big races.
Re:
I am actually tired of him winning everything now- he just never ever stops. And no one ever even seems to raise an eyebrow.Alexandre B. said:
Re: Re:
All the attention goes to Sky, giving Movistar and Valverde free reign.
Spanish cyclists have an unfair advantage in general because no one in their country cares about doping. They actively cheer for cheaters. When Valverde was banned for doping he was still being paid by Movistar and after his ban ended they took him back immediately. Not once was Movistar criticized for this by Spanish media.
A 38 year-old riding better than ever, after he has already been banned for a serious doping offence... How naive does one need to be to believe this crap?
Cycling would be a much better place without Sky and Movistar. Hopefully they implode soon.
therealthing said:
All the attention goes to Sky, giving Movistar and Valverde free reign.
Spanish cyclists have an unfair advantage in general because no one in their country cares about doping. They actively cheer for cheaters. When Valverde was banned for doping he was still being paid by Movistar and after his ban ended they took him back immediately. Not once was Movistar criticized for this by Spanish media.
A 38 year-old riding better than ever, after he has already been banned for a serious doping offence... How naive does one need to be to believe this crap?
Cycling would be a much better place without Sky and Movistar. Hopefully they implode soon.
Re: Re:
Suspension of disbelief.
I've wondered about the difference in public perception of PED's and how it changes according to the country in which you live.
I had the great pleasure to meet some cycling fans at a race in Europe, and when a rider in the break crashed while going way too fast into a corner, one of the fans said " Oh,too much dopage!"
Point being is I got the impression that those hard-core cycling fans were very well aware of the situation but did not care a bit.
Same can be said about pro sports in North america.
I honestly think that cycling would suffer a great deal if teams like Sky and Movistar withdrew their support.
Anyone who pays attention knows that PED's are just as rampant as they were before.
The thing for me is I know it's a circus full of monkeys, but there still remains a core element of beauty that makes it hard to turn away. In fact, the doping is part of the fun.
El Pistolero said:
Suspension of disbelief.
I've wondered about the difference in public perception of PED's and how it changes according to the country in which you live.
I had the great pleasure to meet some cycling fans at a race in Europe, and when a rider in the break crashed while going way too fast into a corner, one of the fans said " Oh,too much dopage!"
Point being is I got the impression that those hard-core cycling fans were very well aware of the situation but did not care a bit.
Same can be said about pro sports in North america.
I honestly think that cycling would suffer a great deal if teams like Sky and Movistar withdrew their support.
Anyone who pays attention knows that PED's are just as rampant as they were before.
The thing for me is I know it's a circus full of monkeys, but there still remains a core element of beauty that makes it hard to turn away. In fact, the doping is part of the fun.
Re: Re:
He wasn't anywhere this good from 2003-2016 than in 2017-2018.
He's bordering on Cancellara levels of domination now (from 2010 onwards). And we all know Cancellara used an engine (Philippe Gilbert thinks so as well, although he never mentioned his name it was obvious who he was talking about).
Blanco said:therealthing said:
As if it had ever been different
He wasn't anywhere this good from 2003-2016 than in 2017-2018.
He's bordering on Cancellara levels of domination now (from 2010 onwards). And we all know Cancellara used an engine (Philippe Gilbert thinks so as well, although he never mentioned his name it was obvious who he was talking about).
If only we knew what Gilbert was on when he suddenly became better than Valverde ever was. For a single year.
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