Online Petition for Operation Puerto

Apr 25, 2013
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Anyone who believes that some of the most prolific dopers of the past decade should actually have to face some consequences needs to sign the petition referenced in this article:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/05/news/petition-to-halt-spanish-court-from-destroying-puerto-blood-hits-20k_285562

People like Mancebo--who while no doubt an exceptional talent--spent years racing doped up, becoming a much stronger rider than he ever would have clean, are now racing in the states and dueling it out with guys who have raced clean their entire lives and have no such advantage. Taking results, paychecks, etc. from people who have made the right moral choices their whole careers and are still good enough to challenge him. Where is the fairness in that?

Who cares if he is supposedly racing clean NOW...if someone stole from their job for 10 years, should he still be fired even if he at some point stopped stealing?!?! Umm..YES. This is such bull****.

Don't let this whole Puerto thing just dissolve after all these years; make these men own up to their crimes. That's what happens in the real world.
 
May 26, 2009
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rjohnson said:
Don't let this whole Puerto thing just dissolve after all these years; make these men own up to their crimes. That's what happens in the real world.
I know man, just like the real world where all those Non-Spanish and Non-Italian authorities cracked down.

Oh wait... only Italy and Spain actually prosecute the suppliers.

I think you are barking up against the worng tree. Slam every other cyclist union and governemnt before you wail about Puerto.
 
Apr 25, 2013
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Oh okay, so because other people got away with ****, we should let everyone? Get a clue. When there's a chance to actually do something the right away, you take it. Who cares what happens before.

When people agree to abide by a certain set of rules, and then break those rules, they DESERVE to be punished. Welcome to civilized society.
 
May 26, 2009
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rjohnson said:
Oh okay, so because other people got away with ****, we should let everyone? Get a clue. When there's a chance to actually do something the right away, you take it. Who cares what happens before.

When people agree to abide by a certain set of rules, and then break those rules, they DESERVE to be punished. Welcome to civilized society.
1. The riders were not on trial. The riders did not break a criminal law, they broke a sporting rule
2. The evidence is in the hands of the Spanish judicial system, not in the hands of WADA.
3. There isn't a government in the world who just hands over private judicial data to a third party. And that's a very reassuring thing!

So mr. I got a clue: You want to prosecute riders who didn't do a crime.

Your view of a civilized world is truly frightening. You don't want to follow rules, you want to haphazardly institute them. Civilized is not a very accurate description.....
 
May 7, 2013
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Wow, what an angry and narrow minded view of justice. Please don't put people off signing a reasonable petition with some sort of desire for revenge.
 
May 26, 2009
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MrTea1976 said:
Wow, what an angry and narrow minded view of justice. Please don't put people off signing a reasonable petition with some sort of desire for revenge.
The petition is not reasonable.

It has no basis in reality, it ignores privacy laws, international conventions and it only has the goal to punish people (which is clearly venguous).
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Franklin said:
I know man, just like the real world where all those Non-Spanish and Non-Italian authorities cracked down.

Oh wait... only Italy and Spain actually prosecute the suppliers.

I think you are barking up against the worng tree. Slam every other cyclist union and governemnt before you wail about Puerto.
Nice job there.

The Fuentes was not about supplying PED's. The Fuentes case was about rules broken regarding medical care.

What other cyclist unions are there that pay athletes to ride bikes at broadcasted events with a worldwide audience?

Don't let the facts get in the way of your world view.

#########################
rjohnson, I'm guessing you don't really understand how WADA agencies work. In most countries, the National Anti-doping Agency is a non-governmental organization. I believe this to be true in Spain. They have no authority to ask for, or use the blood bags.

In most cases, the national anti-doping agency has no authority to open cases either. They need either a bunch of athletes to show up and turn themselves in to the National Anti-doping agency, or the sports federation to open the case.

This is by design. It enables the IOC to pretend they have an anti-doping system and permit doping. This is an IOC matter. If you want to petition, then demand the IOC permit WADA the authority to open cases on their own.
 
May 26, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
Nice job there.

The Fuentes was not about supplying PED's. The Fuentes case was about rules broken regarding medical care.

What other cyclist unions are there that pay athletes to ride bikes at broadcasted events with a worldwide audience?

Don't let the facts get in the way of your world view.
Rabo sure got their fair due.
Humanplasma sure got the criminal and sport judicial systems in arms.

Dirtyworks, sorry, the facts are dramatically at my side. Only the Italians and Spanish prosecute doping facilitators.

Guess it's not me who lest his world view overrule the facts ;)
 
Feb 10, 2010
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rjohnson said:
Oh okay, so because other people got away with ****, we should let everyone? Get a clue. When there's a chance to actually do something the right away, you take it. Who cares what happens before.

When people agree to abide by a certain set of rules, and then break those rules, they DESERVE to be punished. Welcome to civilized society.
The end result of Franklin's world view is more of the same widespread cheating and uncontrolled human experimentation the IOC and UCI endorse.

You are going to have to ignore Franklin's broken arguments.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Franklin said:
Rabo sure got their fair due.
Of what? Some doping controversy. Whoop dee doo.

Franklin said:
Humanplasma sure got the criminal and sport judicial systems in arms.
And that slowed doping dramatically! Oh wait...

Franklin said:
Dirtyworks, sorry, the facts are dramatically at my side. Only the Italians and Spanish prosecute doping facilitators.
Oh snap! And there's less doping in Spain and Italy as a result of some aparatchiks getting the perp-walk. Yup. Cleanest athletes ever.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
The end result of Franklin's world view is more of the same widespread cheating and uncontrolled human experimentation the IOC and UCI endorse.
Well, if the alternative is giving up or substantially watering down data protection and privacy laws, or worse, charging & convicting people for actions that were not prohibited by law at the time..I'd be ok with that.

Actually, though, Franklin's world view really implies nothing of the sort. Just an absurd non sequitur on your part.
 
May 26, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
The end result of Franklin's world view is more of the same widespread cheating and uncontrolled human experimentation the IOC and UCI endorse.
I know! Me pushing for international prosecution of doping doctors is so Pro-doping! It's like the most pro-doping idea ever.

And hey, disregarding privacy laws is a great thing, amirite?

You are going to have to ignore Franklin's broken arguments.
I know, pointing out facts has been rather offensive to you, but I glady repeat the facts.

1. The riders broke no law
2. The riders were thus not on trial
3. Governments never hand over criminal data to third parties

Dirtyworks, you know fully well that these facts are not broken but actually the reality. :cool:

However, you feel it neccesarily to insult me. It's cool, if you can't handle the message, attack the messenger.

Oh and please explain to me why disrupting the supply chain is a bad thing.
Please explain why you have no isue wth no other country prosecuting dodgy doctors?
Please explain why pushing for these things is a bad thing?

I am very much anti doping and don't condone cheating. However, I realize there are laws and there are sport rules. They simply are not the same.
 
May 26, 2009
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SeriousSam said:
Well, if the alternative is giving up or substantially watering down data protection and privacy laws, or worse, charging & convicting people for actions that were not prohibited by law at the time..I'd be ok with that.

Actually, though, Franklin's world view really implies nothing of the sort. Just an absurd non sequitur on your part.
I guess my deep, deep disgust of the constant Spain and Italy bashing just got under my skin.

I see no way that the judge could hand over the bloodbags. Sure I'd love to see the names (I'm just as curious as everyone else), but I fully realize it's a very dangerous precedent, especially considering there is no international regulation in place. So for now, yes, I agree that the bloodbags must be destroyed.

If anything this case shows the need for international regulations. The UNESCO treaty certainly is a good step in the right direction. As I said in another thread, it's probably not coincidential that the recent strides against doping are paralel with the attention doping got at UNESCO level, as that's the only way to get governemnts involved, considering it usually involves both countrymen and foreigners and usually crosses borders.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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SeriousSam said:
Well, if the alternative is giving up or substantially watering down data protection and privacy laws, or worse, charging & convicting people for actions that were not prohibited by law at the time..I'd be ok with that.
Athletes already waive a number of privileges. They permit the federations to collect, test and store samples. Add to that sharing biological data with WADA. IOC can't have that happen though.

SeriousSam said:
Just an absurd non sequitur on your part.
When you are out of reasoned arguments, a personal attack fills the void nicely. I get it. Don't change a thing. Anti-doping works great. Never tested positive. Cleanest peloton ever.

Please post your imagined consequences of Franklin's world view. Be specific. Because the cases in Italy and Spain sure put a dent in doping!
 
May 26, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
When you are out of reasoned arguments, a personal attack fills the void nicely. I get it. Don't change a thing. Anti-doping works great. Never tested positive. Cleanest peloton ever.
Okay, point out where I said this.

You can choose any of my posts I ever posted here.
 
rjohnson said:
Anyone who believes that some of the most prolific dopers of the past decade should actually have to face some consequences needs to sign the petition referenced in this article:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/05/news/petition-to-halt-spanish-court-from-destroying-puerto-blood-hits-20k_285562

People like Mancebo--who while no doubt an exceptional talent--spent years racing doped up, becoming a much stronger rider than he ever would have clean, are now racing in the states and dueling it out with guys who have raced clean their entire lives and have no such advantage. Taking results, paychecks, etc. from people who have made the right moral choices their whole careers and are still good enough to challenge him. Where is the fairness in that?

Who cares if he is supposedly racing clean NOW...if someone stole from their job for 10 years, should he still be fired even if he at some point stopped stealing?!?! Umm..YES. This is such bull****.

Don't let this whole Puerto thing just dissolve after all these years; make these men own up to their crimes. That's what happens in the real world.
only if they go after footballers too.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Franklin said:
I see no way that the judge could hand over the bloodbags.
We actually agree on this point. The way the rules appear to be set up, there is no way the blood bags could pass to Spain's national anti-doping agency.

Franklin said:
If anything this case shows the need for international regulations.
I agree with this too. But, the IOC passively encourages doping and have gone to great lengths to protect athletes doping. The structure of WADA and the bio-passport system being two great examples.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Franklin said:
Okay, point out where I said this.

You can choose any of my posts I ever posted here.
That was actually directed at SeriousSam.

For me it's the exposed rhetorical lever that no law was broken is the perfect excuse to do nothing. I respond swiftly and harshly to that. Don't mistake that as a personal attack. Which, is probably easy to do anyway given I do not soften my opinions.

Finally, addressing the supply-side of doping is not the answer. In this case, you've got the IOC, who is both supporting doping and pretending they have an anti-doping system. Until the federations stop promoting doping, there will always be suppliers. The biggest problem is at the IOC's level. The sports federations will fall in line afterwards.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Franklin is right when he says Spain and Italy (at least lately) are doing the most to combat doping.
Dirty Works is right when he says they should do more, so should every other country. Most lack the will and the $.
Franklin is right about current laws effectively meaning that nothing more is likely to happen regarding Puerto. Somewhere Alberto is sighing in relief (along w/a whole bunch of others).

Not sure the OP is right about Mancebo picking on a bunch of "clean" riders, although I'm sure quite a few are.:cool:
 
Oct 28, 2012
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Hugh Januss said:
Franklin is right when he says Spain and Italy (at least lately) are doing the most to combat doping.
Dirty Works is right when he says they should do more, so should every other country. Most lack the will and the $.
Franklin is right about current laws effectively meaning that nothing more is likely to happen regarding Puerto. Somewhere Alberto is sighing in relief (along w/a whole bunch of others).

Not sure the OP is right about Mancebo picking on a bunch of "clean" riders, although I'm sure quite a few are.:cool:
Fancy posting some evidence that links Alberto to Fuentes?
 
Ever getting the truth out of Puerto will forever be hamstrung by the rules as they were at the time of the investigation. But while that may forever be a problem from the perspective of ever hoping to achieve satisfactory closure from the Operación, it is the right state of affairs from a legal precedent point of view. Besides, we can pretty much guess who most of the affected riders were, piecemeal. I'm not sure why you pick on Paco Mancebo either - he's probably suffered more for his involvement than a lot of others. After all, I'll lay you good money that Ivan Basso's 2 year suspension has done less to reduce his earning potential than Mancebo's riding in exile picking up salaries from teams like Heraklion Kastro-Murcía and prize moneys from races like the Tour de Guadeloupe. He's doing Continental level US races probably to draw a paycheque, similar to all the guys like Jiménez, Nozal, Blanco, Bernabéu, Zaballa and (not Puerto but post-sanction anyhow) Santi Pérez riding in Portugal. Their earnings probably took a bigger hit than at least three of the four riders who've actually been sanctioned for Puerto (Basso, Scarponi, Valverde and Jaksche).

I'm not sure why the "how did that stop doping?" argument has come up, if I'm totally honest - of course it hasn't stopped doping, because that isn't going to happen. It is true however that Italy and now Spain have begun punishing the doctors, the enablers, and this is good. But this will not stop doping as long as there are others who are doing it. After all, Fuentes might now be gone, but Maynar, Losa and others are still around, no?
 
Yes, but I seem to recall reading about he and Zeferino being acquitted and getting a fine instead. The forum thread on that is here but it doesn't quote its source, just link to it, and the original Portuguese source text is no longer available to actually verify whether this was the case or not.
 
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