Over 80 EPO derivatives.....

[Benotti69]

German anti-doping inspector Helmut Pabst: it is difficult to believe "that something has changed at the top of the system in recent years."

According to Pabst there are over 80 EPO derivatives currently in circulation.

For most of them there is no detection method.

Now tell me clean riders are beating EPO users?

If even half (40) were known and had tests for that leaves riders 40 different EPO's to dope from!!!!!!

cycling is still in the dark era.

Jorge Jaksche
In cycling, only the athletes have been sacked, team leaders, managers, soigneurs, who were involved in the system remained.”

Jaksche compares the system to pimps and prostitutes: “The pimps sitting in their warm cars while the girls are on the road at minus two degrees and are taken into custody by the police." There has been no real catharsis in cycling.

 

[Pentacycle]

And yet there are still cyclists who get caught... I'm beginning to wonder what Rabottini, Di Luca and others are thinking when they still use old-school stuff. Not much probably.

 

[python]

German anti-doping inspector Helmut Pabst: it is difficult to believe "that something has changed at the top of the system in recent years."

According to Pabst there are over 80 EPO derivatives currently in circulation.

...

are you getting soft on doping, ben ?

the number of epo derivatives and variants - and my data is prolly outdated - is over 100 as i recall reading several years back...the russians and the chinese lead the grey market pack.

and even if they all are theoretically detectable - and most are as wada has made tremendous strides in updating its laboratories with more universal detection rules - the good old MICRODOSING is still unbeatable...i mean practically unbeatable when a user is less than an outright idiot.

there are still infinite ways to beat the epo testing given the average testing routines...

 

[blackcat]

but Benotti, the problem still stands, knowing what you have got in your ampoule, it is a counterfeit saline solution, or a counterfeit brand but the legit biochemical composition, or a bigPharma brand like an Amgen,

so the problem still stands, knowing your supply channel. Unless it is coming thru some structured doping program in peoples republic China or at a Russian sports institute, which is why i like the python model. Being sure you have legit product, and just testing below the threshold, and keeping the bio passport at Slipstream plausible deniability ranges.

Ryder and Wigans, not plausible deniability ranges. Their ranges, they needed JV to assert the technical measurement device was/were incorrectily calibrated. P'raps one of them. but the miniscule chance of one, multiplied by the miniscule chance of another one, = miniscule^2.


if one knows he/tammythomas/she can access these 100+ derivatives and they are legit, you can just take one dose, of 100 shares of a 1/100th of a dose. And watch your bio passport. Then on the off chance, they have a measurement for any of those derivatives like the epocera that the Saunier Duval guys and Bernie Kohl were taken down for (but we all know they were the useful idjits when prolly one third of the peloton including the Slippers guys were accessing epocera too)

then, if one is merely taking a 1/100th dose of each individual epo derivative, they cant bust you.

 

[blackcat]

is that Pabst Blue Ribbon?

I had a picture of Landis with a Pabst the drink of hipsters, but i have lost it, and do i regret that.

I am pretty sure i got it off one of Chade o Grey's facebook pages. Cant no longer (pleonasm) get it and he has shut down summa those facebook accounts.

 

[DirtyWorks]

but Benotti, the problem still stands, knowing what you have got in your ampoule, it is a counterfeit saline solution, or a counterfeit brand but the legit biochemical composition, or a bigPharma brand like an Amgen.

Well, yes it's possible, but in 2014, the compound has been around for so long that I don't see how it hasn't been emulated with good results for legitimate use in countries with permissive intellectual property laws. Companies like Amgen would like to put an end to that obviously, and that's how the fear about counterfeit brands stays alive.

Also remember we know some doping athletes are perfectly willing to use unknown substances. I'm reminded of John Hendershot's uncontrolled human experimentation as just one example.

 

[Benotti69]

are you getting soft on doping, ben ?

the number of epo derivatives and variants - and my data is prolly outdated - is over 100 as i recall reading several years back...the russians and the chinese lead the grey market pack.

and even if they all are theoretically detectable - and most are as wada has made tremendous strides in updating its laboratories with more universal detection rules - the good old MICRODOSING is still unbeatable...i mean practically unbeatable when a user is less than an outright idiot.

there are still infinite ways to beat the epo testing given the average testing routines...

my humble apologies Py.

 

[Benotti69]

but Benotti, the problem still stands, knowing what you have got in your ampoule, it is a counterfeit saline solution, or a counterfeit brand but the legit biochemical composition, or a bigPharma brand like an Amgen,

so the problem still stands, knowing your supply channel. Unless it is coming thru some structured doping program in peoples republic China or at a Russian sports institute, which is why i like the python model. Being sure you have legit product, and just testing below the threshold, and keeping the bio passport at Slipstream plausible deniability ranges.

Ryder and Wigans, not plausible deniability ranges. Their ranges, they needed JV to assert the technical measurement device was/were incorrectily calibrated. P'raps one of them. but the miniscule chance of one, multiplied by the miniscule chance of another one, = miniscule^2.


if one knows he/tammythomas/she can access these 100+ derivatives and they are legit, you can just take one dose, of 100 shares of a 1/100th of a dose. And watch your bio passport. Then on the off chance, they have a measurement for any of those derivatives like the epocera that the Saunier Duval guys and Bernie Kohl were taken down for (but we all know they were the useful idjits when prolly one third of the peloton including the Slippers guys were accessing epocera too)

then, if one is merely taking a 1/100th dose of each individual epo derivative, they cant bust you.

Spot on BC. What riders are being sold by dealers is prolly as accurate as what junkies buy on the streets of any major city.

Internal testing probably solves a lot of that as does using the 'good' stuff and microdosing it.

Wonder was Ricco planning on becoming a dealer when he got caught buying hospital supplies?

 

[blackcat]

Well, yes it's possible, but in 2014, the compound has been around for so long that I don't see how it hasn't been emulated with good results for legitimate use in countries with permissive intellectual property laws. Companies like Amgen would like to put an end to that obviously, and that's how the fear about counterfeit brands stays alive.

Also remember we know some doping athletes are perfectly willing to use unknown substances. I'm reminded of John Hendershot's uncontrolled human experimentation as just one example.

my problem on the counterfeit is (the first definition of counterfeit that is, you are sold a pup and its saline solution)

that the counterfeit ampoule you get wont raise your crit, you may well get a placebo rise, but you wont get a red cell rise.

I think Benotti then makes that caveat, that internal testing and monitoring your own crit will tell you if you are getting counterfeit epo or the good epo.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Over 80 EPO derivatives.....

Which goes to my theory that the doping technology is outpacing the anti-doping testing technology by such a wide margin that the old axiom -- you can't fail a PEDs test without first failing an IQ test -- is spot-on. Still.

 

[MarkvW]

Over 80 EPO derivatives.....

Which goes to my theory that the doping technology is outpacing the anti-doping testing technology by such a wide margin that the old axiom -- you can't fail a PEDs test without first failing an IQ test -- is spot-on. Still.

I can't be the only one who doubts Jens Voight broke the hour on pane e acqua.

But 'marginal gains' will beat the dopers every time!

 

[Gavandope]

Over 80 EPO derivatives.....

Which goes to my theory that the doping technology is outpacing the anti-doping testing technology by such a wide margin that the old axiom -- you can't fail a PEDs test without first failing an IQ test -- is spot-on. Still.

Spot on. The labs are losing the arms race, without mules to take all these derivatives to and find methods to detect them much faster upon the drugs release. Bearing in mind it's likely it's still probably used to mask smaller, more frequent transfusions no wonder with the knowledge of the drugs half life they are miles ahead in defeating the passport game. Add in performance data for set climbs and output regarding blood levels, and periods at altitude thrown into the mix even a physics bod like me can see only idiots get caught.

 

[neineinei]

Why would they risk using dodgy stuff when the chances of getting tested are minimal and the detection window is so small for the good old tried and trusted EPO?

Keeping the bio passport within the limits is the biggest challenge. If you micro dose in the evening you will be fine by the time the testers comes knocking in the morning. If you load up with some EPO derivative there is no test for, it will still mess up your bio passport.

 

[zigmeister]

Source or GTFO.

And on that note, just because there are 80 derivatives, how many exactly are available on the open market to purchases? Even black market? Just a few. Because most powders/drug sources are coming from China in raw materials often. So, whatever the sources can get/manufacturer, is what you get.

Not like you can walk into a pharmacy and walk up to the "wall of EPO" and get what you want.

Being able to get some very rare derivative, or having contacts who can get them, tested them, would put you darn near close to the sources, black market element, or you are them yourself!

 

[Benotti69]

Source or GTFO.

...........................

German anti-doping inspector Helmut Pabst

According to Pabst there are over 80 EPO derivatives currently in circulation.

You can go dig for the link if you are not too lazy and if you are too lazy GTFO.

 

[The Hitch]

German anti-doping inspector Helmut Pabst

According to Pabst there are over 80 EPO derivatives currently in circulation.

You can go dig for the link if you are not too lazy and if you are too lazy GTFO.

What could an doping expert possibly know about doping that the real experts like David Millar don't?

 

[Race Radio]

German anti-doping inspector Helmut Pabst

According to Pabst there are over 80 EPO derivatives currently in circulation.

You can go dig for the link if you are not too lazy and if you are too lazy GTFO.

To be fair the word Pabst used in reference to this list of EPO was "Partial". Some of them are undetectable. The drugs he is referring to, in general, are not EPO but substances that are similar.

What strikes me as odd is if there are undetectable options, many of which supposedly come from Russia and China, why are riders like Iglinsky still testing positive for EPO?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

To be fair the word Pabst used in reference to this list of EPO was "Partial". Some of them are undetectable. The drugs he is referring to, in general, are not EPO but substances that are similar.

What strikes me as odd is if there are undetectable options, many of which supposedly come from Russia and China, why are riders like Iglinsky still testing positive for EPO?

For the same reason that some will train with old and outdated science, some will use old dopin techniques. The mother of the imbicile...

On the flip side, the fact that so many Russian track and field get their passport bounced without failing a test may show undetectable derivatives. (When it comes to Russian athletes and doping, you can always count on a huge sample size)

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

To be fair the word Pabst used in reference to this list of EPO was "Partial". Some of them are undetectable. The drugs he is referring to, in general, are not EPO but substances that are similar.

What strikes me as odd is if there are undetectable options, many of which supposedly come from Russia and China, why are riders like Iglinsky still testing positive for EPO?

Do you know if the EPO test is still a treshold test?

 

[sniper]

...
What strikes me as odd is if there are undetectable options, many of which supposedly come from Russia and China, why are riders like Iglinsky still testing positive for EPO?

someone else gave satisfying explanation of this today in some other thread:
1. because with traditional EPO it is still easy to fly below the radar, unless you lack basic knowledge of the passport.
2. because with traditional EPO you know what you are consuming, i.e. you know the risks, etc. Plenty of info available on the product. No need to experiment with Chinese or Russian derivatives.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

someone else gave satisfying explanation of this today in some other thread:
1. because with traditional EPO it is still easy to fly below the radar, unless you lack basic knowledge of the passport.
2. because with traditional EPO you know what you are consuming, i.e. you know the risks, etc. Plenty of info available on the product. No need to experiment with Chinese or Russian derivatives.

Are you saying the uncool brother isnt able to read?

 

[Race Radio]

For the same reason that some will train with old and outdated science, some will use old dopin techniques. The mother of the imbicile...

On the flip side, the fact that so many Russian track and field get their passport bounced without failing a test may show undetectable derivatives. (When it comes to Russian athletes and doping, you can always count on a huge sample size)

True. Plus there are few OOC tests in some areas.

For me the big puzzle these days is the weight/power related drugs. There is clearly something going on.

 

[sniper]

True. Plus there are few OOC tests in some areas.

For me the big puzzle these days is the weight/power related drugs. There is clearly something going on.

could you expand? you sound like you're onto something new here.
(surely you're not saying that only now you realize that weight/power related drugs are circulating..?)

 

[Bavarianrider]

To be fair the word Pabst used in reference to this list of EPO was "Partial". Some of them are undetectable. The drugs he is referring to, in general, are not EPO but substances that are similar.

What strikes me as odd is if there are undetectable options, many of which supposedly come from Russia and China, why are riders like Iglinsky still testing positive for EPO?

Well i guess not always is the stuff inside the bottle the oe that is on the cover.

 

[Race Radio]

could you expand? you sound like you're onto something new here.
(surely you're not saying that only now you realize that weight/power related drugs are circulating..?)

No, it has clearly been going on for several years. The question is the exact substances and methods. Lots of theories, few facts.