Over 80 EPO derivatives.....

[Bavarianrider]

could you expand? you sound like you're onto something new here.
(surely you're not saying that only now you realize that weight/power related drugs are circulating..?)

Nothing new. Aicar/GW1516 he is referring to.

 

[Benotti69]

To be fair the word Pabst used in reference to this list of EPO was "Partial". Some of them are undetectable. The drugs he is referring to, in general, are not EPO but substances that are similar.

What strikes me as odd is if there are undetectable options, many of which supposedly come from Russia and China, why are riders like Iglinsky still testing positive for EPO?

Maybe Inglinsky was given the testable epo because someone wanted to rid off him.

Who knows, the murky waters of cycling are so putrid anything is possible. There can be many explanations.

 

[Race Radio]

Nothing new. Aicar/GW1516 he is referring to.

Nope, there is a test for that

 

[blackcat]

On the flip side, the fact that so many Russian track and field get their passport bounced without failing a test may show undetectable derivatives. (When it comes to Russian athletes and doping, you can always count on a huge sample size)

unlike pro sport in America

 

[DirtyWorks]

Nothing new. Aicar/GW1516 he is referring to.

IMO, it is some new combination of HGH/Test + Something_else. HGH and Test is really easy to manage to never test positive and remain way above human norm. Meanwhile, the claim is Aicar and gw1516 use is detectable.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323550604578412913149043072

A long, detailed write-up on the topic. Maybe the medically knowlegable can comment on some of the claims.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2013/04/thyroid-madness-everything-you-need-to.html


I'm repeating the point that things aren't adding up with the radical changes in fat % at the WT level despite climbing times decreasing. Maybe it is as simple as AICAR and gw1516. There's enough posted about gw1516 to know it would have meaningful effects for elite cyclists.

 

[May0maniac]

IMO, it is some new combination of HGH/Test + Something_else. HGH and Test is really easy to manage to never test positive and remain way above human norm. Meanwhile, the claim is Aicar and gw1516 use is detectable.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323550604578412913149043072

A long, detailed write-up on the topic. Maybe the medically knowlegable can comment on some of the claims.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2013/04/thyroid-madness-everything-you-need-to.html


I'm repeating the point that things aren't adding up with the radical changes in fat % at the WT level despite climbing times decreasing. Maybe it is as simple as AICAR and gw1516. There's enough posted about gw1516 to know it would have meaningful effects for elite cyclists.

HGH + Test seems to be a given, plus microdosing of EPO or derivates. About the changes in bodyfat %, even in the past there've riders like the Chicken and Tyler Hamilton. I've always assumed that those guys weren't great EPO responders, so they tried to improve their W/kg by loosing a big amount of weight. Maybe it's just a way to to enhance the benefits of microdosing, but i have to admit that some guys weight losses without loosing much of their power (Wiggo) seem very suspect and could be the result of AICAR and gw1516.

 

[sniper]

before I see black on white that AICAR is being tested for, I will assume it is not being tested for.
that it is detectable doesn't mean much.

 

[Netserk]

before I see black on white that AICAR is being tested for, I will assume it is not being tested for.
that it is detectable doesn't mean much.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-samples-to-be-tested-for-aicar

The UCI has already sent samples from the Tour de France and other races to Cologne to be tested for the substance, a UCI spokesman confirmed to Cyclingnews.

 

[sniper]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-samples-to-be-tested-for-aicar

thanks! (could've looked for that myself).

So that's from 2013 and it's the latest we've heard from it?
It doesn't sound conclusive as to whether or not they are actually testing for it, especially as regards 2014.

The UCI has already sent samples from the Tour de France and other races to Cologne to be tested for the substance, a UCI spokesman confirmed to Cyclingnews.

If there would be regular AICAR testing I would have expected at least one or two positives, but I can't recall any (though again I might be overlooking it).

 

[Race Radio]

HGH + Test seems to be a given, plus microdosing of EPO or derivates.

Test in training, certainly. A bit more risky in a GT if you are a GC guy as the IRMS test is used on the top riders samples. HGH works for some, does not work for others. The tests for HGH and IGF-1 are weak but earlier this year the steroid module was added to the ABP making the use of them much more risky. Microdosing EPO, sure.....but still risky in a GT. Cortisone, without a TUE, is OK to use OOC as long as it is 8-9 prior to a race. Someday there might be a transfusion test but from what I have heard retro testing will not be possible.

Still think there are other things. Oxygen vector drugs that don't raise Hct, drugs developed for diabetes.

The top level of Pro Cycling has had a steady stream of organize doping busts. Festina, TVM, USPS, Puerto, Mantova, but in the last 4 years there have been few. Individuals? yup. Large, organized, programs. Nope. Many riders stopped, or never started, others went deep underground......which makes it much harder to know what is being used

 

[sniper]

Test in training, certainly. A bit more risky in a GT if you are a GC guy as the IRMS test is used on the top riders samples. HGH works for some, does not work for others. The tests for HGH and IGF-1 are weak but earlier this year the steroid module was added to the ABP making the use of them much more risky. Microdosing EPO, sure.....but still risky in a GT. Cortisone, without a TUE, is OK to use OOC as long as it is 8-9 prior to a race. Someday there might be a transfusion test but from what I have heard retro testing will not be possible.

Still think there are other things. Oxygen vector drugs that don't raise Hct, drugs developed for diabetes.

The top level of Pro Cycling has had a steady stream of organize doping busts. Festina, TVM, USPS, Puerto, Mantova, but in the last 4 years there have been few. Individuals? yup. Large, organized, programs. Nope.

intriguing.

Many riders stopped, or never started

i doubt many of these are to be found in the propeloton. I'd guess a minority.

others went deep underground......which makes it much harder to know what is being used

Hawaii certainly is far away and the ex-usps doc running an HGH clinic there could indeed be labled underground.
but is Leinders 'deep underground'?
There are still clear hints of what's going on in front of our eyes.

 

[Race Radio]

intriguing.
i doubt many of these are to be found in the propeloton. I'd guess a minority.

Hawaii certainly is far away and the ex-usps doc running an HGH clinic there could indeed be labled underground.
but is Leinders 'deep underground'?
There are still clear hints of what's going on in front of our eyes.

I think the majority of the ProTour are not using Oxygen vector doping.

There are still plenty of questionable doctors and DS' in the ProTour. When was the last time one of them was caught with a car filled with drugs or fingered by a rider as a supplier? These kind of things used to happen all the time.

I am not saying the sport is clean, I am saying that many riders are and those who are not have changed the structure of their program.

 

[sniper]

I think the majority of the ProTour are not using Oxygen vector doping.

There are still plenty of questionable doctors and DS' in the ProTour. When was the last time one of them was caught with a car filled with drugs or fingered by a rider as a supplier? These kind of things used to happen all the time.

I am not saying the sport is clean, I am saying that many riders are and those who are not have changed the structure of their program.

ok, so you are referring to oxygen vector doping specifically when u say 'many have stopped or never started'.
fair point about the suppliers.
I guess indeed it seems that either there is less demand for PEDs or the chains/methods of supply have changed dramatically (i.e. gone underground).
i am still skeptic about the peloton being that much cleanER. While there might be less quantities of PEDs out there (which is a good thing), i doubt the mentality has changed in the way JV and Cookson and others pretend it has.
But you are closer on the peloton than probably most in here and your posts always make for intriguing reading.

 

[Race Radio]

I guess indeed it seems that either there is less demand for PEDs or the chains/methods of supply have changed dramatically (i.e. gone underground).
.

I think both.

To be clear, I am talking about the World Tour. Doping is still very prevalent by riders and teams outside of the ABP. In some countries, and the Gran Fondo world, it is worse then ever.

 

[ralphbert]

In some countries, and the Gran Fondo world, it is worse then ever.

Lolz, is there anything lamer than doping to win a grand fondo? Doping to come second I guess. I pity those fools. Mr T style.