Over- and underachievers during the last 20 years

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Liberty I mostly agree but why is it in 2008 everyone forgets about Cadel's crash on stage 9 and how those injuries effected his energy, recovery and eventual performance not just in his forlorn chase of Sastre but in the final TT? Other teams praised Evans strength on the stage where he got yellow.
Nobody forgets Evans crash in 2008. His response to someone brushing his shoulder will reign in the Hall of Epic Cadel Responses. He was a spastic that year.

he was a great rider though.
 
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Not talking about W/kg cause then the entirety of the 2011 can just be ignored.
Again, not sure of the numbers, but leading all the way up the Galibier (and dropping all but a few riders) the way that he did has to count as a top level climbing performance. It wasn't exactly one of Pantani's performances up ADH, but still, it was strong.

As somewhat of a minor Evans fan (being Australian I naturally took a little more interest in him than the average rider), I find a great contradiction in valuing him as a climber and trying to see him as 'cleaner' (not trying to being the clinic here, but often the clinic and road racing discussion go hand in hand imo, and is difficult to 100% separate) than some others. Arguing that he never did a supersonic time on ADH bodes well for that argument, but it doesn't bode well for him being a great, or very good climber.

In the 2006 TDF for example up ADH, Evans lost significant time to many of his rivals, who's times were let's say, interesting. But that performance can also be a good argument against his being a great climber.

In 2012 he rode strongly up the ****, back when we all were not sick of that climb. Second to Froome that day? Something like that. Anyway, his Tour performance that year fell apart, but that was a pretty strong climbing performance.

In 2005 he stayed with the heads of state on the way to Mende. Not exactly a mountain, but those were pretty strong heads of state (not sure if this term is really used much in the forum, but blame Phil and Paul for my constant use of it).

In 2006 he was in the final select group in the queen stage in the Pyrenees, well, until he lost a little ground in the final km or two. But being with Sastre and only behind 3 main contenders was pretty good.

I don't know too much about Evans' performances from the Giro and Vuelta, as I haven't watched those races as much as the Tour (preparing to be banned :grimacing::laughing:), but what could be questioned more about Cadel, is his time trial performances. After all, in his era there was more ITT, and maybe it was his ability against the clock that was overrated? He was a consistently good climber, but he didn't take the multiple minutes always that maybe he should have in time trials, or at least he didn't take the time that his reputation suggested he should.

This is a very muddled post. It probably suits the perplexing nature that many of us find with rating Cadel Evans amongst the other greats of his era.
 
Nobody forgets Evans crash in 2008. His response to someone brushing his shoulder will reign in the Hall of Epic Cadel Responses. He was a spastic that year.

he was a great rider though.
His head was entirely in the wrong place in 2008. Too much energy wasted on the media, bad positioning in the bunch and defending that 1 second lead cost Evens the race for sure.
 
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Again, not sure of the numbers, but leading all the way up the Galibier (and dropping all but a few riders) the way that he did has to count as a top level climbing performance. It wasn't exactly one of Pantani's performances up ADH, but still, it was strong.

As somewhat of a minor Evans fan (being Australian I naturally took a little more interest in him than the average rider), I find a great contradiction in valuing him as a climber and trying to see him as 'cleaner' (not trying to being the clinic here, but often the clinic and road racing discussion go hand in hand imo, and is difficult to 100% separate) than some others. Arguing that he never did a supersonic time on ADH bodes well for that argument, but it doesn't bode well for him being a great, or very good climber.

In the 2006 TDF for example up ADH, Evans lost significant time to many of his rivals, who's times were let's say, interesting. But that performance can also be a good argument against his being a great climber.

In 2012 he rode strongly up the ****, back when we all were not sick of that climb. Second to Froome that day? Something like that. Anyway, his Tour performance that year fell apart, but that was a pretty strong climbing performance.

In 2005 he stayed with the heads of state on the way to Mende. Not exactly a mountain, but those were pretty strong heads of state (not sure if this term is really used much in the forum, but blame Phil and Paul for my constant use of it).

In 2006 he was in the final select group in the queen stage in the Pyrenees, well, until he lost a little ground in the final km or two. But being with Sastre and only behind 3 main contenders was pretty good.

I don't know too much about Evans' performances from the Giro and Vuelta, as I haven't watched those races as much as the Tour (preparing to be banned :grimacing::laughing:), but what could be questioned more about Cadel, is his time trial performances. After all, in his era there was more ITT, and maybe it was his ability against the clock that was overrated? He was a consistently good climber, but he didn't take the multiple minutes always that maybe he should have in time trials, or at least he didn't take the time that his reputation suggested he should.

This is a very muddled post. It probably suits the perplexing nature that many of us find with rating Cadel Evans amongst the other greats of his era.
From what I've seen, Evans was basically systematically among the 5-10th place on big climbing stages in most of the Giro/Vuelta he did, apart from the easier ones where he'd get some higher places on punchier finishes, etc.

I do think his ITT might have been slightly overrated during his career, as he was often expected to just destroy the puny climbers in the TTs when he finished 5-10th in the ITTs most times. He rarely really destroyed the ITTs, though his 2011 TT was great.

Overall I don't think he underperformed, as I rate all multiple GT winners of his era and since then higher than him, and some single GT winners as well. Probably the upper echelon of single GT winners.
 
Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread but I'm starting to think that MAL is not the Superman we thought he'd be. After 2018's breakout season he seems to have lost a gear. He's just what, 26, but I'd hate to think his best years are behind him.
 
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From what I've seen, Evans was basically systematically among the 5-10th place on big climbing stages in most of the Giro/Vuelta he did, apart from the easier ones where he'd get some higher places on punchier finishes, etc.

I do think his ITT might have been slightly overrated during his career, as he was often expected to just destroy the puny climbers in the TTs when he finished 5-10th in the ITTs most times. He rarely really destroyed the ITTs, though his 2011 TT was great.

Overall I don't think he underperformed, as I rate all multiple GT winners of his era and since then higher than him, and some single GT winners as well. Probably the upper echelon of single GT winners.
Evans' TT was probably at its best in 2007 where he was later awarded the win in both TTs.

Is that description OK Mods?
 
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Nobody forgets Evans crash in 2008. His response to someone brushing his shoulder will reign in the Hall of Epic Cadel Responses. He was a spastic that year.

he was a great rider though.
Yes he carried on as he struggled with the pressure pre 2009 but I hope you are not suggesting his 2008 crash was a brush on the shoulder? o_O. It was a huge crash caused by a Euskaltel rider falling right in front of him. Plenty of damage. Road rash, bruises etc. Maybe you are referring to the don't touch my dog outburst? Oh and yes while you might claim nobody forgets that crash, like I said it seems many ignore it. I think it was Vaughters (?) who said Evans ride to hold yellow on the Hautacam by 1 second with those injuries was heroic. Maybe not the smartest thing to do in terms of conserving his energy but gutsy nonetheless.
 
Yes he carried on as he struggled with the pressure pre 2009 but I hope you are not suggesting his 2008 crash was a brush on the shoulder? o_O. It was a huge crash caused by a Euskaltel rider falling right in front of him. Plenty of damage. Road rash, bruises etc. Maybe you are referring to the don't touch my dog outburst? Oh and yes while you might claim nobody forgets that crash, like I said it seems many ignore it. I think it was Vaughters (?) who said Evans ride to hold yellow on the Hautacam by 1 second with those injuries was heroic. Maybe not the smartest thing to do in terms of conserving his energy but gutsy nonetheless.
No I was talking about when he freaked out on the reporter who patted him on the back a day or so after the crash. Or the time one almost stepped on his dog.
 
Yes he carried on as he struggled with the pressure pre 2009 but I hope you are not suggesting his 2008 crash was a brush on the shoulder? o_O. It was a huge crash caused by a Euskaltel rider falling right in front of him. Plenty of damage. Road rash, bruises etc. Maybe you are referring to the don't touch my dog outburst? Oh and yes while you might claim nobody forgets that crash, like I said it seems many ignore it. I think it was Vaughters (?) who said Evans ride to hold yellow on the Hautacam by 1 second with those injuries was heroic. Maybe not the smartest thing to do in terms of conserving his energy but gutsy nonetheless.
Evans helmet was split in half and the bruising to his back probably hampered him in the TT and the crash happened on a descent so it was no light road rash or whatever. One of the other team managers paid tribute to Evans the next day after the stage. I think he witnessed the crash and said that Evans showed a ton of character which he often did. He knew how to suffer that's for sure.
 
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Evans' TT was probably at its best in 2007 where he was later awarded the win in both TTs.

Is that description OK Mods?
I think the 2011 TT was his best and just confirmed the form he had all season. If they had been giving him the time checks he would have beaten Martin that day which was no easy thing when Martin was time trialling so well then. He was a handful of seconds down on Martin at the third check but so far ahead of the Schlecks that they didn't want him trying for the stage win and risking a crash but Evans was a superb bike handler and probably could have handled it without doing something silly.
 
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Evans helmet was split in half and the bruising to his back probably hampered him in the TT and the crash happened on a descent so it was no light road rash or whatever. One of the other team leders paid tribute yo Evans the next day after the stage. I think he witnessed the crash and said that Evans showed a ton of character which he often did. He knew how to suffer that's for sure.
Thanks yes that is what I recall and it was said after Cadel held yellow by 1 second on the Hautacam.

The thing about fans of this sport is many have selective memories or simply don’t follow other riders closely enough to notice. The thing I admired most about Cadel (other than he was Australian) was his ability to suffer. No he wasn’t a gifted climber but he was a tremendously strong, skilled and courageous rider in all conditions. That is a gift in itself. I was certain he would crack on the Galibier that day closing down two minutes on Andy. Amazing suffering which deserves respect from anyone who has ever raced a bike.
 
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His head was entirely in the wrong place in 2008. Too much energy wasted on the media, bad positioning in the bunch and defending that 1 second lead cost Evens the race for sure.
Yes not sure why so many people considered him the hot favourite that year, probably because there was no Contador. But on paper the CSC team was incredibly strong and you also had both Schlecks and Sastre against Evans. They also had Voght, O'Grady, Cancellara, Anker-Sorenson. Evans team management was acting like Evans had the race won and you know how Evans didn't like the media spotlight. No doubt the pressure built on him during the race especially after his crash and the TT just didn't happen. Sastre also rode a better TT than usual.

Evans made a mistake in 2007, missing a split in the front group and it wasn't even on a climb which was unusual for him. But he could have quite easily had two grand tours in the bag. To lose one by under 20 seconds then the next one by under a minute put even more pressure on him re 2009/10. 2009 was a disaster and 2010 he was in Yellow when he had another fall but he had already ridden the Giro for a good fifth place and a stage win. I don't think anyone believed he was going to hang on to yellow in the 2010 Tour. Evans was also upset that Lotto didn't re-sign Horner after he told them he needed Horner as his best mountain domestique which all led to leaving the team later. I bet Marc Sergeant was pissed when Evans won the worlds in 2009 only to sign with BMC for the following season.
 
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Here, you earned it!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4vbAz3-jvs


Rasmussen was Menchov domestique in the first place. The danish was a stage hunter for all his career, while Menchov was the rider for the GC in Rabobank. He only got the team leadership in 2007 TDF thanks to a breakaway, which was his trademark style. He always took advantage of breakaways for achieving high GC places because he was awful in TT and flat stages.

Denis was 2nd in 2005 Vuelta, 5th in 2006 Tour (with Rasmussen working for him) and 1st in 2007 Vuelta (again nothing to do with Rasmussen).

Other notable results before the Rasmussen DSQ inlcude best young rider in 2002?/2003? TDF finishing 11th overall, winning Itzulia, stages in TDF, Vuelta, Dauphine winning atop Ventoux.
Rasmussen never won the best young rider in the TDF.

And calling his breakaway to Tignes "only a breakaway" doesn't do it justice. He murdered the field that day, and was the strongest rider in the race.
 
Rasmussen never won the best young rider in the TDF.

And calling his breakaway to Tignes "only a breakaway" doesn't do it justice. He murdered the field that day, and was the strongest rider in the race.
Rasmussen on Tignes was probably a bit like Carapaz that they let him go then forgot to chase him down hard enough and did a big surprised pikachu when he didn't drop 8 minutes in the ITT. Difference though is that in Carapaz' case the main ITT had already happened so they knew exactly how much they had to play with and handed him pink anyway.

That's not to say Rasmussen used every chance he had to drop the TTers himself. He just sat on on the Galibier IIRC then he waited really long to take off on the Aubisque.
 
Rasmussen on Tignes was probably a bit like Carapaz that they let him go then forgot to chase him down hard enough and did a big surprised pikachu when he didn't drop 8 minutes in the ITT. Difference though is that in Carapaz' case the main ITT had already happened so they knew exactly how much they had to play with and handed him pink anyway.

That's not to say Rasmussen used every chance he had to drop the TTers himself. He just sat on on the Galibier IIRC then he waited really long to take off on the Aubisque.
He had also trained a lot for the ITT and knew he was much better than two years previously. He didn't doubt that he could defend himself decently there.
 
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I think what cost Evans the 2008 Tour was waiting for too long before taking responsibility on Alpe d'Huez. He rectified this in 2011 and that won him that Tour, but that was a different, much less cowardly Evans.
 
I think what cost Evans the 2008 Tour was waiting for too long before taking responsibility on Alpe d'Huez. He rectified this in 2011 and that won him that Tour, but that was a different, much less cowardly Evans.
He dropped 2 minutes + on Hautacam as well and lost 47s on the easier Pratonevoso earlier, I don't think he could've gone that much faster.
 
I think what cost Evans the 2008 Tour was waiting for too long before taking responsibility on Alpe d'Huez. He rectified this in 2011 and that won him that Tour, but that was a different, much less cowardly Evans.
Nope. Evans had a huge crash on stage 9 and that is what cost him on the Alpe and TT. On the Alpe he was on the front from the moment Sastre attacked and simply didn't have the strength to do any more. In 2011 he was certainly more relaxed but you can't say it was lack of courage that cost him in 2008. That simply isn't true.
 
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