Pedalling imbalance thread.

[CoachFergie]

Not appropriate for a power meter thread so...

So, to correct your riders problem, you had him pedaling in the PowerCranks fashion just one leg at a time?

Why on earth would anyone concerned with rehab or performance train with an independent crank. We did single leg pedalling with a counter weight on the opposite crank.

And, you think some imbalances simply can't be fixed? (forget the A Simmons examples and give us an example of what you mean.)

Know of several riders who have various level of tears to the meniscus that have received medical advice that won't be 100% repaired and the rider has to work around that.

Could you present any data that riding on the track leads to any imbalance

When the new indoor velodrome was built in Invercargill within a year there was a number of riders presenting with pain in the right knee.

 

[coapman]

Not appropriate for a power meter thread so...



Why on earth would anyone concerned with rehab or performance train with an independent crank. We did single leg pedalling with a counter weight on the opposite crank.



Know of several riders who have various level of tears to the meniscus that have received medical advice that won't be 100% repaired and the rider has to work around that.



When the new indoor velodrome was built in Invercargill within a year there was a number of riders presenting with pain in the right knee.

Excluding injury what in your opinion is the cause of muscle imbalance ?

 

[CoachFergie]

I'm a cycling coach not a muscle balance coach so but I would expect the repetition of a non-optimal movement pattern.

 

[FrankDay]

I'm a cycling coach not a muscle balance coach so but I would expect the repetition of a non-optimal movement pattern.

Could you explain what exactly is "a non-optimal movement pattern"?

 

[FrankDay]

Not appropriate for a power meter thread so...

Not sure why not since power meters are now measuring r/l balance

Why on earth would anyone concerned with rehab or performance train with an independent crank. We did single leg pedalling with a counter weight on the opposite crank.

Because, using independent pedals (both at the same time like regular cranks) would behave essentially the same as doing a single leg drill with a counter weight on the other crank (the weight of the leg acts as the counterweight for the downstroke) with just a couple of differences. 1. the rider doesn't have to unclip and become unbalanced on the bike and 2. the rider can work both legs at the same time.

Know of several riders who have various level of tears to the meniscus that have received medical advice that won't be 100% repaired and the rider has to work around that.

Really? So, you just accept such advice as gospel and "give up". As a physician I simply don't see something as simple as a meniscus tear being so severe that it couldn't be rehabbed completely although it might require surgery.

When the new indoor velodrome was built in Invercargill within a year there was a number of riders presenting with pain in the right knee.

And, that is evidence of what exactly?

 

[CoachFergie]

So, you just accept such advice as gospel and "give up". As a physician I simply don't see something as simple as a meniscus tear being so severe that it couldn't be rehabbed completely although it might require surgery.And, that is evidence of what exactly?

When were you last licensed to practice as a Physician?

Well it is true that just because one is a Dr that they can be trusted. Some Dr's do a real dis-service to the title. But then some do appear to know what they are talking about so I will take their advice.

Evidence of a knee injury in that they say so and have to cut back their riding till the issue is solved.

 

[42x16ss]

I'm a cycling coach not a muscle balance coach so but I would expect the repetition of a non-optimal movement pattern.

Could it be related to riding on the banking over an extended period?

 

[CoachFergie]

Could it be related to riding on the banking over an extended period?

It's what I would expect as the number of right knee issues peaked about six months after the track was built.

 

[2beeDammed]

when I first started to use the Keo power system I noticed a massive imbalance between left and right leg, almost 80/20 split. This worried me greatly until I tried to work out what was going on. Ends up the problem was how tight I had my shoes done up, a few more clicks than usual on the offending foot and problem solved

 

[sciguy]

when I first started to use the Keo power system I noticed a massive imbalance between left and right leg, almost 80/20 split. This worried me greatly until I tried to work out what was going on. Ends up the problem was how tight I had my shoes done up, a few more clicks than usual on the offending foot and problem solved

Wow that's really interesting. Do you think the tightness of the shoe actually influenced your power output or how the pedal measured it? Did your total power increase a good deal with a tighter shoe? I'll cinch my shoes up a bit tighter for extremely high power output work but really have never seen any effect with looser or tighter shoes using my SRM.

I'd be interested to hear what happens to balance and total power if you experimented with your other shoe intentionally set a bit loose.

Thanks for sharing.

Hugh

 

[hiero2]

Wow that's really interesting. Do you think the tightness of the shoe actually influenced your power output or how the pedal measured it? Did your total power increase a good deal with a tighter shoe? I'll cinch my shoes up a bit tighter for extremely high power output work but really have never seen any effect with looser or tighter shoes using my SRM.

I'd be interested to hear what happens to balance and total power if you experimented with your other shoe intentionally set a bit loose.

Thanks for sharing.

Hugh

Hmm. Hugh - I would say that your question is exactly what he was trying to say. I wouldn't say, based on his post, that your conclusions had merit. I would say that you were trying to be dismissive of his experience.

I would strongly recommend you try and figure out why his experience has truth or merit. Unless we can not believe anything he says, but the post sounds quite reasonable to me, there must be SOME reason he had the experience he did. Try and figure out the why.

 

[sciguy]

Hmm. Hugh - I would say that your question is exactly what he was trying to say. I wouldn't say, based on his post, that your conclusions had merit. I would say that you were trying to be dismissive of his experience.

I would strongly recommend you try and figure out why his experience has truth or merit. Unless we can not believe anything he says, but the post sounds quite reasonable to me, there must be SOME reason he had the experience he did. Try and figure out the why.

Despite how my message came across to you , I really wasn't trying to be dismissive of the poster's experience.........just would really like to understand the why of the situation. Since the Polar pedals are relatively new and have not seen wide circulation at this point, it may turn out that they show some sort/s of idiosyncratic behavior depending on the tightness of one's shoes. As a fellow involved with athletes who use a wide variety of power meters I'd really like to know if this is the case. I have no direct experience with Polar pedals but still wish to understand them.

Best Regards,

Hugh

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Hmm. Hugh - I would say that your question is exactly what he was trying to say. I wouldn't say, based on his post, that your conclusions had merit. I would say that you were trying to be dismissive of his experience.

I would strongly recommend you try and figure out why his experience has truth or merit. Unless we can not believe anything he says, but the post sounds quite reasonable to me, there must be SOME reason he had the experience he did. Try and figure out the why.

SciGuy's post sounded quite reasonable to me, drew no conclusions, nor dismissed 2beeDammed's reported experience, and it's you who is dismissive of SciGuy's attempt to clarify and establish reasons for 2beeDammed's reported experience, which on the face of it could be either one or a combination of the following:

- an actual imbalance
- an inaccurate or faulty power meter
- shoe usage that affects actual imbalance
- shoe usage that affects the power meter's accuracy or operation
each of which has different implications as to what it means for 2beeDammed.

Or it could be something else.

 

[hiero2]

Despite how my message came across to you , I really wasn't trying to be dismissive of the poster's experience.........just would really like to understand the why of the situation. Since the Polar pedals are relatively new and have not seen wide circulation at this point, it may turn out that they show some sort/s of idiosyncratic behavior depending on the tightness of one's shoes. As a fellow involved with athletes who use a wide variety of power meters I'd really like to know if this is the case. I have no direct experience with Polar pedals but still wish to understand them.

Best Regards,

Hugh

Hugh, I would say that is an excellent clarification. Thank you.

SciGuy's post sounded quite reasonable to me, drew no conclusions, nor dismissed 2beeDammed's reported experience, and it's you who is dismissive of SciGuy's attempt to clarify and establish reasons for 2beeDammed's reported experience, which on the face of it could be either one or a combination of the following:

- an actual imbalance
- an inaccurate or faulty power meter
- shoe usage that affects actual imbalance
- shoe usage that affects the power meter's accuracy or operation
each of which has different implications as to what it means for 2beeDammed.

Or it could be something else.

Dismissive of Sciguy? Perhaps, perhaps, but examining that gets us nowhere. Notice that his reply clarified his intent and meaning quite nicely.

Moving on to your breakdown of the possibilities, I would say that was a well done listing. It might even be helpful for 2beeDamned to assay his opinion of the causation.

 

[2beeDammed]

Well the overall the power reading didn't seem to change much once I figured out what was going on and tightened the buckle. Now having said this, all this happened in the first few rides using a power meter, so I had no real history to look back on and compare power readings with. Maybe one leg was compensating for the one with the loose buckle and would have eventually tired ? Not sure, my guess is that the issue was with the way the data is collected not the data itself.
So to settle this I imagine it would be best to conduct some sort of a test. I was thinking something like a sprint test. Standing start, sprint 325m as fast as possible and record max watts and average watts. Done first day with correct fit tension of the shoes, next day leave one shoe buckle slightly lose. Any other ideas ?
Just for the record the original reason for the loose shoe was a change of brands. After years of using Shimano shoes that are some what narrow and didn't need much tension to hold them in place. Early this year I swapped to Sidi and they are much wider and take a fair bit more adjustment to fit, so when I put my shoes on at 5.30am I was still putting them on 'Shimano' style.

 

[elapid]

Dismissive of Sciguy? Perhaps, perhaps, but examining that gets us nowhere.

I wouldn't be so dismissive of an analysis of your reply to Sciguy. All other members other than you were not concerned about Sciguy's reply. As an administrator/moderator, perhaps you should not be so quick to judge an individual comment, especially from someone who is not usually a protagonist and because of his scientific background is quite inquisitive (as reflected in his questions regarding the PM findings with a tight/loose shoe).

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Well the overall the power reading didn't seem to change much once I figured out what was going on and tightened the buckle. Now having said this, all this happened in the first few rides using a power meter, so I had no real history to look back on and compare power readings with. Maybe one leg was compensating for the one with the loose buckle and would have eventually tired ? Not sure, my guess is that the issue was with the way the data is collected not the data itself.
So to settle this I imagine it would be best to conduct some sort of a test. I was thinking something like a sprint test. Standing start, sprint 325m as fast as possible and record max watts and average watts. Done first day with correct fit tension of the shoes, next day leave one shoe buckle slightly lose. Any other ideas ?
Just for the record the original reason for the loose shoe was a change of brands. After years of using Shimano shoes that are some what narrow and didn't need much tension to hold them in place. Early this year I swapped to Sidi and they are much wider and take a fair bit more adjustment to fit, so when I put my shoes on at 5.30am I was still putting them on 'Shimano' style.

Look forward to the results.

As a comment, an 80:20 balance would be highly unusual*, and is suggestive of a power meter issue than a real imbalance (e.g. one pedal is not reporting correctly / data dropouts or something like that).

Hence why I am curious to see whether the shoe tightness itself is affecting the quality of the data, more than whether it's affecting your ability to generate power. I can't quite see how it would/could affect the readings, but hey these things are fairly new so who knows what quirks we'll find.

* As an example, I have a prosthetic left lower leg and my imbalance is in the 45-48:55-52 range.

 

[FrankDay]

* As an example, I have a prosthetic left lower leg and my imbalance is in the 45-48:55-52 range.

How are you measuring that imbalance?

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Before clipless pedals, back when the world was condemned to rat trap pedals, the rule -- especially among velodrome racers -- was that if you can feel your toes, the your toe straps are too loose. They all rode double toe straps to be sure they could get enough tension to cut off all circulation:



Sounds like maybe they knew what they were on about. The upside was that in winter, you didn't need booties because your toes would be numb after a ride, even if it was warm, lol. And if your toes got frostbit, you'd never notice (until they thawed).

 

[CoachFergie]

From the Racing and Training with a Power Meter Facebook Page...

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

An item about power balance and what it really means:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/left-right-out-of-balance.html