Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[tobydawq]

I only go to CN to avoid tennis GOAT wars and then this is what I get.

Is that the only reason?

 

[Oldermanish]

Oh, I agree, and if he doesn't get the big wins, his career will not be entirely successful. And if not, then I'll give Sagan the trophy between them.

How magnanimous for you to come to a Sagan thread and define conditions where you'd bestow a trophy.
Wout is a great rider and one of my favorites because he is an aggressive and honest racer. He seems to have a sense of humor as well. It's way too early to settle his account with history and demeaning another great who is retiring is chauvinistic and childish at best.

 

[ij74]

Oh, I agree, and if he doesn't get the big wins, his career will not be entirely successful. And if not, then I'll give Sagan the trophy between them.

Yep. If he fails to win at least a few of them, he´ll be always be considered the Belgian Pozzato.

 

[Extinction]

How magnanimous for you to come to a Sagan thread and define conditions where you'd bestow a trophy.
Wout is a great rider and one of my favorites because he is an aggressive and honest racer. He seems to have a sense of humor as well. It's way too early to settle his account with history and demeaning another great who is retiring is chauvinistic and childish at best.

It's a forum, get over yourself. We are here to talk shop, in this case cycling. If you don't like my thoughts, fine, but don't assume to know my actual intentions. For the record, I have always been a fan of Sagan and actually am rather neutral towards Wout. So It has nothing to do with your high-minded lessons, but sincere recognition of prowess. Trophy is only another metaphorical concept, as if we don't make assessments all the time. So don't be a sourpus.

 

[frisenfruitig]

He has nothing comparable to Sagan



OK, Van aert has Strade, and Sagan has Roubaix, which is a bigger win



Sagan has won 3 GW and Van Aert only 1. Sagan better



Ok, Van Aert won Amstel, and Sagan won Ronde van Vlaanderen, which is bigger. And when Sagan won De Ronde, it was actually clear to see that he crossed the line first (he drop Cancellara like a stone in the Paterberg)



Sagan has more TDF stage wins



Yes , Green Jersey is quite a significant win for a rider. Which is why Sagan 7 green jerseys put him in a different league to Van aert 1



Fair enough, this is Van aert biggest win and it was very good. But it does not compare to 3 consecutive World championships Road race wins. A historic and unique achievement.



So you named 5 races, only 1 of which is at the top echelon of the sport (monument/World championships/ Grand tour GC) , and you already talking about races Van Aert lost.

By the way Van der Poel rode a poor final in that 2020 RVV. He led onto the paterberg, drove the pace consistently and led out the sprint, despite having a teammate behind when Van aert didn't. He gave Van aert an armchair ride to the finish and Van aert still lost.

You could mention how sagan barely lost 2013 Sanremo to ciolek, or sagan barely lost 2016 Sanremo when he was in prime position and crashed by gaviria mistake. Sagan gifted 2013 strade bianche to his teammate Moser. Sagan was catching Gilbert for 2017 ronde van Vlaanderen when a spectator left their clothes over the barrier.

So sagan has a lot of what ifs also. Winning matter the most




OK. So let's go to arnau de lie/olaf kooij/magnus Sheffield threads. And discuss whether they are better than Sagan, because in 12 years they could be on track for doing so.

You admit that Sagan is better than Van aert yourself, but if the future goes as you hope Van aert might be comparable to him. Anything can happen in the future. Sagan could win something big this year.

We can talk also about Sagan wins in Giro and vuelta. Sagan Giro points jersey. Sagan wins at tirreno, Paris Nice. Sagan wins in quebec and Montreal. Sagan win California GC, sagan wins at Suisse, Sagan European championships etc

I never claimed that WVA has more big wins than Sagan, anyone with a brain can see that is not the case. Some people here have claimed that WVA only has 1 big win or that he is underwhelming in big races and that just isn't the case.

That being said I do think when both riders have retired and we look back at their careers WVA will have the more impressive palmares. Mainly because I believe he will have more longevity than Sagan has shown.

I could be wrong of course. It may well be that he never wins the RVV or PR. It doesn't seem very likely but perhaps some new gods will emerge and surpass WVA and MVDP.

 

[Panda Claws]

Why are people rewriting history when it comes to Sagan's WC victories? He wasn't really the main marked man in any of those and it was probably the one race a year where it barely mattered that his team sucked. Belgians would work anyway and nobody could look at Slovakia to do anything.
Also it were three sprints.

Of course still very impressive.

 

[Extinction]

I never claimed that WVA has more big wins than Sagan, anyone with a brain can see that is not the case. Some people here have claimed that WVA only has 1 big win or that he is underwhelming in big races and that just isn't the case.

That being said I do think when both riders have retired and we look back at their careers WVA will have the more impressive palmares. Mainly because I believe he will have more longevity than Sagan has shown.

I could be wrong of course. It may well be that he never wins the RVV or PR. It doesn't seem very likely but perhaps some new gods will emerge and surpass WVA and MVDP.

To the bolded, since the comparison has been made, I think you have to consider what each rider was/is capable of doing. Sagan is unquestionably a phenomomal rider, who is perhaps no longer able to score the really big wins in the monuments and Worlds of his golden years, but still quite capable of stage wins in the major week-long races and GTs in this his final year. By contrast Wout should have another few years (3-5?), because his transition into World Tour road racing came later, in which the monuments, Worlds and stage wins are all within his reach.

Now Van Aert has the class to win all the monuments Sagan won, regardless of whether or not he actually does, which still remains to be seen. But he is the type of rider that can win Flanders and Roubaix. Moreover, given his on-the-day performances in the mountains of the Tour, I'd say it's feasable that Wout could also win Liege. Clearly he can further win Worlds on various courses, even a climbers one, although here he's always going to be sharing leadership with Evenepoel, which will make it harder to succeed. Again, considering his win on the double Ventoux stage and his mountain domestique duties, when he often wittles the competition down to all but the big GC guys, as well as his TTing prowess; I would not put it past him on the right course to even win stage races like PN, TA, the Dauphine or Tour de Suisse. These, of course, would require all the stars properly aligning, including who on the team is riding and under what alloted roles, but possible. Having been so close already, he could also win the Worlds ITT. Lastly, he can even take a field sprint against the fastest in the world on no less of a finish than the Champs Ellisse.

A formitable skill set indeed.

As great as Sagan has been, he can't climb, TT or sprint as well. I thought he was going to be another Boonen/Cancellara type winner at the Ronde and the Hell of the North, but failed to meet expectations, which is the reason I feel as if his career, despite all the successes, fell short of the mark. That and failing to win MSR (who knows maybe this year, but I think it's probably too late). Yet in the end it's results that count, one's palmarès that has the final say (as the old badger Hinault recently reminded some pros who didn't recognize and belittled him on a training ride). And here Van Aert must still win those cobbled monuments and Worlds, which have thus far alluded him, to surpass Sagan. Nonetheless he truly is Superman.

 

[Oldermanish]

Why are people rewriting history when it comes to Sagan's WC victories? He wasn't really the main marked man in any of those and it was probably the one race a year where it barely mattered that his team sucked. Belgians would work anyway and nobody could look at Slovakia to do anything.
Also it were three sprints.

Of course still very impressive.

Bergen had him sitting in the 3rd position at least 400m from the line in a tight pack. Everyone stacked on his wheel couldn't even begin closing the gap when he kicked.
The US version had him going uphill, from distance and all of the principal candidates were right there. Again, no one closed the gap for what, 3 km?
You are nothing but marked in those positions and he made the best of it in each situation. If folks expect him to take hard pulls for 220km they will be disappointed.

 

[Netserk]

Why are people rewriting history when it comes to Sagan's WC victories? He wasn't really the main marked man in any of those and it was probably the one race a year where it barely mattered that his team sucked. Belgians would work anyway and nobody could look at Slovakia to do anything.
Also it were three sprints.

Of course still very impressive.

And I thought the meme poster had a bad memory of the 2016 Ronde.

 

[Panda Claws]

And I thought the meme poster had a bad memory of the 2016 Ronde.

I'll admit to not recalling 2015 but in 2016 and 2017 nobody was looking at Sagan and he did not have to do any work.

 

[wansteadimp]

I'll admit to not recalling 2015 but in 2016 and 2017 nobody was looking at Sagan and he did not have to do any work.

Well Bergen literally no one was looking at anything in the finale.

 

[PeterB]

At the moment van Aert is similar to Kwiatkowski to me: a really really good rider who does not however have results to back up considering him as one of the very best riders of his generation. Of course he has also his CX career thanks to which he is more visible but purely on the road result-wise, Wout will need to win a few more to match Sagan's status. Despite being objectively the better rider overall, potentially.

So still too early to compare their careers as we don't know what Wout has ahead of him. It's like we would have compared Sagan against Boonen in 2016 and concluded that Sagan was the better one because he was better than Boonen at that time. So it's not the right time to compare Sagan and van Aert yet.

 

[tobydawq]

I'll admit to not recalling 2015 but in 2016 and 2017 nobody was looking at Sagan and he did not have to do any work.

How can anyone forget 2015?

That's like the most spectacular finish to a bike race ever...

 

[RedheadDane]

How can anyone forget 2015?

That's like the most spectacular finish to a bike race ever...

And I couldn't even watch it, because Viasat had sole TV rights, and I think my parents would have found it a bit weird to have me sitting in their living room in the middle of the night!

 

[Oldermanish]

And I couldn't even watch it, because Viasat had sole TV rights, and I think my parents would have found it a bit weird to have me sitting in their living room in the middle of the night!

Did they find you there before?

 

[RedheadDane]

Did they find you there before?

I'm not sure if I might have done it when I still lived with them. But I'd moved out by 2015.

 

[tobydawq]

And I couldn't even watch it, because Viasat had sole TV rights, and I think my parents would have found it a bit weird to have me sitting in their living room in the middle of the night!

It finished at around 11 pm...

But yeah, they did, and that was horrible. Long, long commercial breaks on every lap, including the last one. Thank God they gave up that right after 2015.

 

[Oldermanish]

Well Bergen literally no one was looking at anything in the finale.

Except Sagan's rear wheel getting further away. Not bad for someone who "As great as Sagan has been, he can't climb, TT or sprint as well ". In those WC he showed they he could do all of those things. If his pursuit escape in 2015 Van Avermaet (who didn't seem to be attacking the whole race while saving himself) couldn't follow him on a hill, couldn't close the pursuit/TT to the finish even with help.
No one could do that at Flanders when he attacked similarly on the hill and digging deep to stay away from the entire field. Capped off by a stellar wheelie of joy. It's worth checking out how lean Sagan was, having changed his physique to suit efforts IMO.
Roubaix was an honest mano y mano ass kicking of the entire field.
Not sure what you guys want but Peter did this for himself during his time not to be second-guessed and compared to riders yet to win anything. Sorry if this sounds "why so serious?" but everyone that casually pimps their favorite rider as the Future Great by demeaning another's actual accomplishments is ignoring the point of the sport. It's hard, you have to endure and finish...then you need to get the result. Sagan's results, like Hinault's, Lemond's and many others are actual and in the books.

 

[RedheadDane]

It finished at around 11 pm...

Still a bit of a weird time to be sitting in your parents' living room, watching cycling.
And yes, I am aware that you were probably ten back in 2015...

 

[tobydawq]

Still a bit of a weird time to be sitting in your parents' living room, watching cycling.
And yes, I am aware that you were probably ten back in 2015...

Well, not if you ask them...

 

[Peyroteo94]

How are we really comparing WVA to Sagan? I fail to see where WVA was the absolute number one contender and really delivered in the cobbled classics like Ronde or PR or we still can add the Worlds. Until he wins one of them, he is not even in the league of MVP and Sagan is more far away.

 

[ij74]

That being said I do think when both riders have retired and we look back at their careers WVA will have the more impressive palmares. Mainly because I believe he will have more longevity than Sagan has shown.

If you look at it from the perspective that he started to stagnate relatively early (when he was 30), then yes. But if you look at when Sagan started winning (2010!), then good luck to Wout Van Aert.

 

[ij74]

And you guys are naive if you think the WVA won't have more contenders. Every year young talents arrive and I expect that soon a new machine will appear that will dominate peloton.

 

[Taxus4a]

I would prefer he would have put some objetives before to leave, but I hope anyway this year he can figh with the best for San Remo or other races.

 

[Oldermanish]

And you guys are naive if you think the WVA won't have more contenders. Every year young talents arrive and I expect that soon a new machine will appear that will dominate peloton.

The endless supply of quality sprinters most certainly impact any one rider displaying decade(s) of serious results. That's why the true greats are spoken of with appropriate respect.
WVA is a rare talent but, as you say; more contenders and you talent show up now. They're better screened, trained and tested than generations before. The flame-out rate is also accelerated as all of the talent works harder to maintain or improve.
WVA also didn't have to deal with Oleg Tinkoff constantly crowding victory shots and then degrading PS to the press constantly for....getting too many 2nd places.