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Phlebotomists as team docs

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sniper said:
no, i don't have all the answers. but neither do i see any reason to give JV the benefit of the doubt like many back then were giving Lance and Bruyneel the benefit of the doubt. There are too many parallels. In fact, I currently see no indications whatsoever that suggest JV's Garmin is clean. He's claiming Sky is clean fcol, and is using the same rethorics as Lance and Bruyneel used to sell us and fully in line with Brailsford. Give me one reason why JV or his doctors deserve the benefit of the doubt? Because he says so? Give me something tangible (other than Kimmage's 2008 internship please, cuz that's outdated). If you don't have anything, then he, like everybody else in cycling, does NOT deserve the benefit of our deeply rooted doubts.

You know what? You will never convinced. I have asked you before how the hell you go about proving you have't done something or aren't doing something and your answer to that was plain lame. If it tickles your fancy to think JV is as dirty as Bruyneel and Armstrong, you are welcome to it. But Don't moan if people get a bit tired of you every now and then.
 
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GJB123 said:
You know what? You will never convinced. I have asked you before how the hell you go about proving you have't done something or aren't doing something and your answer to that was plain lame. If it tickles your fancy to think JV is as dirty as Bruyneel and Armstrong, you are welcome to it. But Don't moan if people get a bit tired of you every now and then.

you're constantly putting words into my mouth. Is that the only way you can rebut my posts?
anyway, keep sticking your head in the sand. Must be nice and warm there.
 
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GJB123 said:
You know what? You will never convinced. I have asked you before how the hell you go about proving you have't done something or aren't doing something and your answer to that was plain lame. If it tickles your fancy to think JV is as dirty as Bruyneel and Armstrong, you are welcome to it. But Don't moan if people get a bit tired of you every now and then.

when/where did I say "JV is as dirty as Bruyneel and Armstrong"?
you're constantly putting words into my mouth. that's unnecessary, really.
Bottom line: if you wanna keep sticking your head in the sand, fine by me, but don't ask me to do the same!
 
sniper said:
when/where did I say "JV is as dirty as Bruyneel and Armstrong"?
you're constantly putting words into my mouth. that's unnecessary, really.
Bottom line: if you wanna keep sticking your head in the sand, fine by me, but don't ask me to do the same!

No, you tiptoe around that quite nicely by saying you don't like that he talks about marginal gains like certain people we know and that his hurts or perhaps destroys his credibility. The insinuation though is clear and evident for everybody to see no matter how you try and sugarcoat it afterwards. You are not fooling anyone.

And you know what, you might even be right about JV and Garmin but the way you go about trumpeting your opinion is not very classy, to say the least.

Regards
GJ
 
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GJB123 said:
No, you tiptoe around that quite nicely by saying you don't like that he talks about marginal gains like certain people we know and that his hurts or perhaps destroys his credibility. The insinuation though is clear and evident for everybody to see no matter how you try and sugarcoat it afterwards. You are not fooling anyone.

And you know what, you might even be right about JV and Garmin but the way you go about trumpeting your opinion is not very classy, to say the least.

Regards
GJ

Well that's a fair post for a change. Indeed, JV's credibility should be open for discussion. The history of cycling compels us to distrust much of what we are fed by pro-cycling's main actors. But let's not discuss it here, as I asked a couple of normal questions in the OP which had little to do with JV's credibility.
 
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@Fearless Greg Lemond
Great post at the end of that troll-poll-thread.
Too bad Dr. Mas and JV trolled the poll to death.
IMO, it was becoming quite a well-informed thread with lots of interesting facts.
Not sure if Red Flanders needed to close it down this fast. JV looked pretty ugly out there, so perhaps a good decision. At any rate, your last post nailed it.

@Red Flanders: feel free to close this one down as well. I've gotten the info I wanted and more Garmin-related discussion is obviously unwanted right now.
 
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I don't know how professional cycling team doctor contracts work, so maybe I am missing the point of this thread. In other words I am not sure if the doc is going to get paid the same amount whether he/she draws blood or not, so that might invalidate my argument. Anyway, take below for what it is.

My mom is a phlebotomist. The degree to become a phlebotomist is a minimum 2 year associates degree, or you can go further and get a bachelor's. The bachelor's is not in phlebotomy, but "medical technology" or something similar. This is what my mom has and it allows her to do more the just draw blood, but preform EKG's, urinalysis, and other more basic nurse-like functions (blood pressure, etc). It also allows her to get paid more which brings me to the point of why a team may employe a phlebotomist.

Reason being they aren't paid much at all. Having a phlebotomist on the books is a hell of a lot cheaper then a doctor. Your basic phlebotomist will get paid starting 13-15 (US dollars) an hour. A phlebotomist with a bachelor's degree who can preform EKG's, will get closer to the 20 dollar range or more an hour. If you are needing just blood drawn, and sending them to a lab for interpretation, then having a phlebotomist will save some money and can make total sense for a team to employe one, and use the team doc for other purposes. Some phleb's get quite good at analyzing results and noticing what deviations are occurring from a "normal" patient. However, that is not their job so it wouldn't really be wise to rely on solely their opinion of the lab results.

For what it is worth, she used to work in southeastern Pennsylvania would sometimes get client's referred to her who were cyclists training at the Kutztown (http://www.thevelodrome.com/) Velodrome. The most I could get my mom to say about that (protecting HIPAA of course) was that there were some "really different results".
 
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FWIW, based on Haro's CV, he is also the lead physiologist at Hodgson-Moore Pathology Services, http://www.hodgson-moore.com/

There is not much regarding Hodgson-Moore's services about the net, but here are a few tidbits:
http://itsligo.ie/2011/06/27/innovation-centre-company-appoints-former-real-madrid-physiologist/
http://www.studionorthwest.tv/innovators/hodgson-moore-pathology-services/
http://www.lookwest.ie/news/partner...ses-point-sligo-?tmpl=component&print=1&page=

Obviously, we could read a lot into this; certainly, this would be an opportune arrangement to monitor a doping program. OTOH, if H-M Pathology is above level, monitoring blood markers for indicators of fatigue and/or disease to adjust training regimes is the type of analytic edge we would expect to interest JV.
 
sniper said:
no, i don't have all the answers. but neither do i see any reason to give JV the benefit of the doubt like many back then were giving Lance and Bruyneel the benefit of the doubt. There are too many parallels. In fact, I currently see no indications whatsoever that suggest JV's Garmin is clean. He's claiming Sky is clean fcol, and is using the same rethorics as Lance and Bruyneel used to sell us and fully in line with Brailsford. Give me one reason why JV or his doctors deserve the benefit of the doubt? Because he says so? Give me something tangible (other than Kimmage's 2008 internship please, cuz that's outdated). And while you're at it, try addressing and accounting for some of the extreme dodginess surrounding the Clean Team (the Bruyneel-link, the Contador-link, the Girona-link, the Spanish-docs-link, the marginal-gains-talk, the Sky-is-clean-claim, etc.)

More to the point: do you think Sky is clean?

I am pretty sure that some of these points have been debated and there was no evidence of anything nefarious but you still keep on bleating about them.

For example Girona, what is the problem with Garmin being based in Girona and how does it relate to doping. This has been discussed before but you still keep banging on about how its proof of doping. Its not.

US riders were based in Girona before 99 and indeed before the French introduced any sort of law's on doping which were introduced in 99. JV, Tyler, Hincapie, Jemison and other posties were based there pre 99 so it cant have been for doping reasons. Yes Lance re-located there from France but that was more to do with escaping France and with a load of Postals already based in Girona, it was a perfectly logical move. Perhaps he should have moved back to Italy to be closer to Ferrari:rolleyes:.

Having been to Girona and spent time cycling there, I can affirm it is a fantastic place for training with quality quiet roads, some tough and not so tough climbs and fantastic weather for most of the year. The town itself is beautiful and atmospheric, large enough but also easy access to the surrounding country side and the airport is within easy reach of town, 10min by taxi, 25 by bus. In summary Girona is the perfect place for a team to be based and when quite a few of your riders are already based there it makes sense.

Apart from Garmin, I know quite a few of the Greenedge boys are based there as well as quite a few riders from Rabobank, Spidertech, United Healthcare and quite a few female pros. In fact I know of one rider who left Girona because he felt the cycling community there was too big and he felt like he never escaped from the ProBubble as it was 24/7. Yet none of those nasty Spaniards are based there?

The only place that would seem to negate idea of doping would be France but if all pro teams were based in France, surely that would be evidence of doping using your standards. After all, there was the Oz community of O'Grady, Vogels, Sweet, Voigt, Moncassin all based around Toulouse post 99. Do you think Toulouse was a haven for dopers also and of course Europcar are based in France and I am sure you are suspicious of them as well.

I can just see it now, sorry guys we want you all to uproute and move to France because some loon on the internet who knows nothing about Girona thinks its a haven for dopers because Lance lived there for a short time.

So what exactly has Girona got to do with doping?
 
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amp300 said:
I don't know how professional cycling team doctor contracts work, so maybe I am missing the point of this thread. In other words I am not sure if the doc is going to get paid the same amount whether he/she draws blood or not, so that might invalidate my argument. Anyway, take below for what it is.

My mom is a phlebotomist. The degree to become a phlebotomist is a minimum 2 year associates degree, or you can go further and get a bachelor's. The bachelor's is not in phlebotomy, but "medical technology" or something similar. This is what my mom has and it allows her to do more the just draw blood, but preform EKG's, urinalysis, and other more basic nurse-like functions (blood pressure, etc). It also allows her to get paid more which brings me to the point of why a team may employe a phlebotomist.

Reason being they aren't paid much at all. Having a phlebotomist on the books is a hell of a lot cheaper then a doctor. Your basic phlebotomist will get paid starting 13-15 (US dollars) an hour. A phlebotomist with a bachelor's degree who can preform EKG's, will get closer to the 20 dollar range or more an hour. If you are needing just blood drawn, and sending them to a lab for interpretation, then having a phlebotomist will save some money and can make total sense for a team to employe one, and use the team doc for other purposes. Some phleb's get quite good at analyzing results and noticing what deviations are occurring from a "normal" patient. However, that is not their job so it wouldn't really be wise to rely on solely their opinion of the lab results.

For what it is worth, she used to work in southeastern Pennsylvania would sometimes get client's referred to her who were cyclists training at the Kutztown (http://www.thevelodrome.com/) Velodrome. The most I could get my mom to say about that (protecting HIPAA of course) was that there were some "really different results".

Really good info Amp300, thanks alot for sharing.


ToreBear said:
Excelent.

I'm awaiting another visit from JV. After this visit, Garmin-Sharp will announce that the "team" have hired a full time psychiatrist.
:D
TheInternet said:
FWIW, based on Haro's CV, he is also the lead physiologist at Hodgson-Moore Pathology Services, http://www.hodgson-moore.com/

There is not much regarding Hodgson-Moore's services about the net, but here are a few tidbits:
http://itsligo.ie/2011/06/27/innovation-centre-company-appoints-former-real-madrid-physiologist/
http://www.studionorthwest.tv/innovators/hodgson-moore-pathology-services/
http://www.lookwest.ie/news/partner...ses-point-sligo-?tmpl=component&print=1&page=

Obviously, we could read a lot into this; certainly, this would be an opportune arrangement to monitor a doping program. OTOH, if H-M Pathology is above level, monitoring blood markers for indicators of fatigue and/or disease to adjust training regimes is the type of analytic edge we would expect to interest JV.

Yeah, I saw that as well.
I agree with the boldface.

pmcg76 said:
(...)snipped for brevity

You're obviously right about Girona that it's not necessarily an odd marker (though the other odd markers i mentioned in my post remain, but they are nothing more than that: odd markers, and indeed as you say they've been raised previously and need not be discussed further now). Thanks alot pmcg76 for taking the effort to explain those details re Girona, which i admit i wasn'T aware of.
 

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