Power Climbers are boring

[ThisFrenchGuy]

First thread, hope it was not discussed to death...
I am a very occasional fan of cycling, I guess i'm the TdF/casual type really.

So I was thinking, while watching the Tour this year (I kinda skipped 2007 and 2009), and came to the conclusions that "power climbers" were really, really boring.
I mean the guy climbing, **** on its selle, at a steady pace, grinding down the opposition through "high cadence".

Do not get me wrong: I am not trying to minimize their accomplishment. I am sure the effort is no less impressive. My remark is purely from an aesthetic perspective, the point of the view of a spectator, not a practitioner.

Sure, sometimes "power climbers" do indulge me in the spectacle of pain, which is a major part of televised cyclism, like a panting Jan Ullrich running behind a victory he never managed to catch again. But power climbers never seem to really bonk. I guess that's the whole point of it, going at a steady pace to avoid fringales, that moment where they just seem to stop while still pedaling (Garate was like that when Tony Martin caught him on Ventoux after his raid). Of course the power climber never give the impression to "attack" per se, to get up on his pedals to get that extra speed that will create the gap.

The problem seem that in recent years, power climbing was really popular, it seems. And watching a procession of power climbers up an hill makes for terrible TV. Sure the fastest will always be up there first...

I do not mind a good mix of power climber with more "dancing guys" though, good drama to be had: will the stone face guy cracks or be able to follow? More irregular patterns forces the power climber out of his nature to follow some of the attackers? Will the offensive guy just bonk fiercely?

I realize the issue has its roots in much larger things: pro sports went on a path of extreme effectiveness, the riders are maxing out their potential and buffed out a bit (weight vs power balance, esp. for all around GC racers), and even things like more conservative strategies: as the prizes grew larger and larger, a GT win can no longer be left to luck and the race must be kept into control by the teams aiming for victory.

Not sure if it deserved its own thread but heh.

 

[ingsve]

I think part of the issue is that more teams seem to favour the strategy of setting a very high pace in te climbs with their domestiques. This discourages some attack riders from attacking because the tempo is so high their extra effort on an attack won't be faster enough to make a good gap. What this means is that the only attacking riders that do manage to attack are only the very best ones like the Schlecks. If the tempo was lower other riders might be more willing to attack and makes things happen.

 

[avantage]

Garate just sat up because he realized the wind was too much of an obstacle for him.
But regarding the subject, yes, they're boring. In fact power climbers kill the Tour's excitement.
I'm a Wiggo fan, but he didn't changed his tempo too often on the climbs. Works well, but quite boring.

 

[LugHugger]

The good news is that this year we had Contador as the explosive climber extraordinaire. Make sure that you watch next year with the return of The Chicken [Michael Rasmussen] to duke it out on Alpe d'Huez with Contador

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I think part of the issue is that more teams seem to favour the strategy of setting a very high pace in te climbs with their domestiques. This discourages some attack riders from attacking because the tempo is so high their extra effort on an attack won't be faster enough to make a good gap. What this means is that the only attacking riders that do manage to attack are only the very best ones like the Schlecks. If the tempo was lower other riders might be more willing to attack and makes things happen.

I hesitated in mentioning that in the first message. The thing is, this tactic is effective to protect the best riders, so the strong teams would be mad not to use it in the most important climbs. I don't see that going away... however Astana and Saxo were the only one this year able to do that several times in the TdF. It is also predictable... maybe the outsiders are at fault and should have more imagination to derail the plan? Dunno.

Regarding Garate he did not bonk proper. I do not know why he slowed down to a crawl, not sure it was only strategy. Tony Martin did help him winning the stage though by towing Garate for the end of the climb. Garate was smart in his choices. He, Martin and the third man had the guts to attack even though it was supposedly doomed.

 

[dienekes88]

I think it'd be boring if they were all the same. If you have a lot of attacking riders, but not that many who can ride the high tempo... then you might end up with a lot more tactical stuff like Ventoux. Everyone's looking at one another... nobody wanting to make the attack and drive a group only to get countered later. On top of that, if you have all these guys who can accelerate, you might not unhitch anyone with a vicious acceleration. On the other hand, if everyone is just trying to push the big gear until everyone else falls over... that's a little boring.

It's exciting if you pull back the camera and think about the overall picture. Waiting and hoping to see if one of your favorites (if he happens to be a steady climber like Twiggo) try to claw his way back into the group is exciting. Having such big differences in the styles is a source of excitement.

 

[Oldman]

The good news is that this year we had Contador as the explosive climber extraordinaire. Make sure that you watch next year with the return of The Chicken [Michael Rasmussen] to duke it out on Alpe d'Huez with Contador

Running anywhere near clean, Rasumussen seriously lacks the credentials.

 

[davidg]

I think that there is a subtle difference between a power climber and a group riding tempo because no-one is prepared to attack.

Go back and find a few Merckx, Hinault or Indurain vids, where they set the pace themselves and just ground the opposition down, even the so-called climbers.

 

[Carboncrank]

The good news is that this year we had Contador as the explosive climber extraordinaire. Make sure that you watch next year with the return of The Chicken [Michael Rasmussen] to duke it out on Alpe d'Huez with Contador

I'll be shocked if Rassmussen can ride competitively under Passport.

Saxo had the right idea this year pushing pace from the bottom of the climbs but when you do that not many are going to have anything left for fireworks kind of racing further up.

AC and the Schlecks provided some fun this year with a good sprint thrown in by Lance but if you have an attacking climber you'd better have some horses to pull them along against the kind of team Astana has had. It was hardly fair this year. But, whatareyagonnado?

 

[DarkWing]

I'll be shocked if Rassmussen can ride competitively under Passport.

Saxo had the right idea this year pushing pace from the bottom of the climbs but when you do that not many are going to have anything left for fireworks kind of racing further up.

AC and the Schlecks provided some fun this year with a good sprint thrown in by Lance but if you have an attacking climber you'd better have some horses to pull them along against the kind of team Astana has had. It was hardly fair this year. But, whatareyagonnado?

not if he's on the same program as Contador

 

[badboyberty]

I think the problem on Ventoux was the direction and the strength of the wind made solo attacks foolhardy at the best. Pellizotti tried for the stage win but just couldn't survive in no-man's land alone. Yeah, things would have been more interesting had Andy Scheck and Alberto Contador entered the stage separated by seconds instead of minutes, but when your at real risk been blown backwards down the hill sitting behind someone else is the place your going to want to be.

It's not power climbers that's the problem, it's second rate course design. If the ASO let RCS Sport plan the route for next year's TdF it'll be so much better.

 

[The_Z_man]

The good news is that this year we had Contador as the explosive climber extraordinaire. Make sure that you watch next year with the return of The Chicken [Michael Rasmussen] to duke it out on Alpe d'Huez with Contador

Those two might duke it out on L'Alpe, but it probably won't matter too much in the grand scheme of things, because the Alps will most likely come first.

Now watching them duke it out on the slopes of Luz Ardiden or Hautacam, is another story. The Pyrenees is where the action is going to be.

 

[balkou]

not if he's on the same program as Contador

Lame comment! Unless you're at a lab and you know more than we mortals do.

Anyway, back to the topic. It think the term "power climbers" is a little bit contradictory. You see, you certainly apply more power when you're going en danseuse than when you're sitting in the saddle, aren't you?

 

[pickettt]

Lame comment! Unless you're at a lab and you know more than we mortals do.

I don't know that it's so lame. Alberto Contador was implicated in Operation Puerto. We don't know the politics as to why he was excused ( Unless you're at a lab and you know more than we mortals do.) Rasmussen has not been proven to be any more guilty of doping than Contador. Incidently, I don't necessarily believe either one of them to be innocent.

 

[pedaling squares]

I don't know that it's so lame. Alberto Contador was implicated in Operation Puerto. We don't know the politics as to why he was excused ( Unless you're at a lab and you know more than we mortals do.) Rasmussen has not been proven to be any more guilty of doping than Contador. Incidently, I don't necessarily believe either one of them to be innocent.

Sure it's lame. There is a whole clinic dedicated to this topic and this is (look at the top of your screen) a doping discussion free forum. Ergo..... lame.

 

[psychlist]

Running anywhere near clean, Rasumussen seriously lacks the credentials.

I agree with you.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think this argument should be split in two. The real culprit isn't the type of climbing as much as the risk-averse style that so many teams employ of fast tempo riding as a strategy.

You don't even need to look back to Merckx or Hinault. In this year's Giro Ivan Basso attacked many times, and he's more of a power climber. He was making bold moves, and dictating the race. And he did it mostly with power climbing as you state.

There are remedies for this also. First, is course design. The climbs need to be steep enough, especially at the end, or stacked enough, to compliment the style of those who are bold, and make it hard for "trains" to set up. Another potential remedy is to eliminate race radio, or eliminate split times being allowed to the team cars. This way riders who choose to attack, will have a chance to stay away as the chase groups won't be allowed to have the team car calculate and determine how how and when to chase.

But yes, I agree, it makes for boring racing. Absolutely.

 

[Carboncrank]

I think this argument should be split in two. The real culprit isn't the type of climbing as much as the risk-averse style that so many teams employ of fast tempo riding as a strategy.

You don't even need to look back to Merckx or Hinault. In this year's Giro Ivan Basso attacked many times, and he's more of a power climber. He was making bold moves, and dictating the race. And he did it mostly with power climbing as you state.

There are remedies for this also. First, is course design. The climbs need to be steep enough, especially at the end, or stacked enough, to compliment the style of those who are bold, and make it hard for "trains" to set up. Another potential remedy is to eliminate race radio, or eliminate split times being allowed to the team cars. This way riders who choose to attack, will have a chance to stay away as the chase groups won't be allowed to have the team car calculate and determine how how and when to chase.

But yes, I agree, it makes for boring racing. Absolutely.

I think it was the dominance of Astana that made it boring. That's what good managers alway want to do. Win big, overwhelm, control as many aspects as you can. It makes it boring to watch for some people. There are parallels in other sports. A manager or coach earning his money could care less if it's close or exciting to watch.

Next year should be different.

 

[pedaling squares]

I think that course design is the more appropriate remedy than eliminating radios. A stack of fairly steep cols, even if they are not too long, usually burns off the domestiques. But we too often end up seeing team leaders following each others' wheels instead of unleashing an attack that might gain them minutes or see them flame out altogether. Nothing against the Wiggins style, he has to play to his strengths, but I sure preferred the Schecks' attacking style at the TDF, it made the race far more exciting.

 

[Darrylc]

First thread, hope it was not discussed to death...
I am a very occasional fan of cycling, I guess i'm the TdF/casual type really.

So I was thinking, while watching the Tour this year (I kinda skipped 2007 and 2009), and came to the conclusions that "power climbers" were really, really boring.
I mean the guy climbing, **** on its selle, at a steady pace, grinding down the opposition through "high cadence".

Do not get me wrong: I am not trying to minimize their accomplishment. I am sure the effort is no less impressive. My remark is purely from an aesthetic perspective, the point of the view of a spectator, not a practitioner.

Sure, sometimes "power climbers" do indulge me in the spectacle of pain, which is a major part of televised cyclism, like a panting Jan Ullrich running behind a victory he never managed to catch again. But power climbers never seem to really bonk. I guess that's the whole point of it, going at a steady pace to avoid fringales, that moment where they just seem to stop while still pedaling (Garate was like that when Tony Martin caught him on Ventoux after his raid). Of course the power climber never give the impression to "attack" per se, to get up on his pedals to get that extra speed that will create the gap.

The problem seem that in recent years, power climbing was really popular, it seems. And watching a procession of power climbers up an hill makes for terrible TV. Sure the fastest will always be up there first...

I do not mind a good mix of power climber with more "dancing guys" though, good drama to be had: will the stone face guy cracks or be able to follow? More irregular patterns forces the power climber out of his nature to follow some of the attackers? Will the offensive guy just bonk fiercely?

I realize the issue has its roots in much larger things: pro sports went on a path of extreme effectiveness, the riders are maxing out their potential and buffed out a bit (weight vs power balance, esp. for all around GC racers), and even things like more conservative strategies: as the prizes grew larger and larger, a GT win can no longer be left to luck and the race must be kept into control by the teams aiming for victory.

Not sure if it deserved its own thread but heh.

You watched it this year, but skipped 2007 and 2009Hehe

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I have no memory of those 3 weeks.
(I meant 2008)

Thanks for all the answers.

 

[karlboss]

alpe d'huez Jan ullrich 1998...awesome. If there are only power climbers then i agree may as well watch grass grow, but when there is someone who can use accelerations next to them, it becomes interesting and you wonder when if ever they will breakaway. Jan on that climb just rode faster and harder straight off the front. It was like he was his own team train. hahaha It may not have actually been like that but thats how I remember it, huge gear short line through the corners...