So you're saying that Tucker and Dugas are "Skybots"?
acoggan said:Sorry, I thought you were objecting to presenting stage race data and hour record data in the same breath, not referring to doping (note that I downgraded Vaughter's doped performance in training using his 4-6% estimate to project his undoped performance).
Ferminal said:I originally meant that if you want to set some "doping line" that holds true for everyone (which I don't) it should only be used to compare performances of the same type. Even the difference between an MTF at the end of a stage and the same climb as an MTT is noticeable, comparing to an hour record someone trained towards for months is going even further. Sure you can make a somewhat educated guess, but that defeats the whole purpose of a doping line providing certainty.
If you want to see how Tour MTFs fare against a doping line the doping line should be established based on the historical best efforts of clean riders in the Giro or Tour, a task which is practically impossible sans the small bits of info we get from le breton. Unfortunately the only plentiful data we have is of dopers which is a bit unfair, just because they doped doesn't beyond any doubt rule out a clean rider matching their feats. Thus my point that it's a pretty futile exercise and not one which should be relied upon to provide us with any real certainty. It is my uninformed opinion that we can get the same degree of uncertainty/certainty out of looking at times for the same climb in the past and accounting for the differences as we can from trying to work out the W/kg for the climb and then compare it to some special number we derived from equally error prone measurements, or some number from Eddy in Mexico which is pushing the limits of the domain. That's just me, others may find a higher degree of certainty in the single number.
acoggan said:We seem to be in complete agreement. I only started pointing out values of 6+ W/kg because those who do believe that it is possible to establish a definitive 'doping line' generally seem to think that even that is impossible w/o assistance.
Turner29 said:Jonathan Vaughters is pretty open now about his past and states that during training, undoped, he could hit 6.5 w/kg for 15-20 minutes. This implies an undoped FTP of over 6.0 w/kg, consistent with his undoped FTP estimate of 6.2 w/kg.
JV1973 said:For me, it didn't make such a huge difference, as my hct% was quite high anyway (47-51% range naturally). roughly, I was around 360 watts at 1 hour power, at sea level, without doping. With EPO, I was around 375 watts at 1 hour power. My weight was pretty consistent in the 60-62kg range.
My biggest problems had to do with glycogen resythesis and protein degradation, not 02 consumption. Otherwise: I didn't recover too well after day 7-8 or so. Maybe that would have been solved with insulin or something, but I didn't try.
And there you go, JV
JV1973 said:As I look at some old SRM files, there's one 45 min effort at 381 watts. So, maybe a bit more.
@Vaughters said:@fmk_RoI 1999 dauphine, ventoux stage: VAM 1912, w/kg 6.8.... See why I feel cycling is clean now?
?Tyler'sTwin said:By now, you may have figured out that JV's story doesn't add up.
Of course, any normal person would change their opinion when new information is presented.Dear Wiggo said:I don't see you saying the same of Krebs Cycle... Apparently it's the done thing by scientists learning new information.
Krebs cycle said:Of course, any normal person would change their opinion when new information is presented.
You sound more like a deluded religious fundamentalist who stubbornly believes the earth was created in 7 days despite 200yrs of scientific evidence which completely disproves the creation myth.
Race Radio said:http://bicycling.com/blogs/boulderreport/2013/07/08/you-dont-have-the-power/
Joe Lindsey's take is a good one
Fearless Greg Lemond said:Didnt you once do a calculation for Herrera on Ventoux in 1987's TT? Maybe I missed it.
Trond Vidar said:For those crunching out numbers: Laurens Ten Dam releases all the TDF stages on Strava, usually the same evening. You can use his times and locations to validate your numbers. The map in conjunction with time is quite useful if the peloton wasn't filmed at the start of a climb etc.
He confirmed his weight to be 67-68 on twitter just a day ago
Bexon30 said:Yea, I follow Ten Dam. How accurate is Strava because it assumes one person is riding alone not a peloton or group of 20+ etc. or that that make little or any difference up hill. Also the % of climbs seems a little out to me sometimes... Might just be me though.
Trond Vidar said:I think it is most useful for verifying times, ie when they hit a climb and such. If he uses a power meter if would show next to the calculated watts. He seems not to record the power data.