Primož Roglič

[StryderHells]

@sniper
Roglic did start showing up on the climbs first, just have a look at his results with Adria Mobil between 2013-15 and it shows this, his first big result for Lotto-Jumbo in 2016 was in the Algave on the stage up the Alto do Malhao. It wasn't until that years Giro that he showed an aptitude for the ITT.

On a side note, you've now raised doubts on a few riders using motors so if that's the case then why would any of his competitors say anything?

 

[samhocking]

Are UCI using the X-RAY trailer again after each stage finish of Tour de France? It was there last year at the stage finishes I went over to see and top finishers bikes were all being x-rayed.

 

[sniper]

Re:

@sniper
Roglic did start showing up on the climbs first, just have a look at his results with Adria Mobil between 2013-15 and it shows this, his first big result for Lotto-Jumbo in 2016 was in the Algave on the stage up the Alto do Malhao. It wasn't until that years Giro that he showed an aptitude for the ITT.

cheers, I stand corrected. That makes him (or his trajectory) slightly more plausible.
Still not remotely plausible though, from Skijumper to world top-procyclist, in a country with no cycling tradition. I'm going with Stade 2's findings here. It simply makes sense.

On a side note, you've now raised doubts on a few riders using motors so if that's the case then why would any of his competitors say anything?

My thoughts exactly. I think it's telling (and in line with expectations) that nobody from within the peloton is saying anything, not even the faintest signs of malcontent or distrust towards Roglic/Lotto Jumbo. I don't think there's a single pro-team at present that is not experimenting with e-bikes.

 

[hrotha]

There was indeed a lot of talk in this here Clinic about his sudden transformation into a time-trialist.

 

[sniper]

Recall it wasn't just the glowing rear hub+seat post.
Stade 2 also reported irregularities with regards to the testing of his bike before the Giro prologue.
All points towards motorization.

 

[Tienus]

As a complete opposite to Femke's case.

Well in Femke's case nobody talked (to the press) untill after she was caught.

The most plausible explanation is that only one of them is a moto fraud.

The most plausible explanation for me is that most riders are motor frauds.

 

[samhocking]

If most top riders are using motors, then UCI are letting those riders bikes through the x-ray trailer saying they don't have motors, despite an x-ray saying the opposite? While it's plausible that all teams are protected by UCI from ever having a bike x-rayed showing a motor inside, surely the thing to do as the UCI would just be to stop at using the Ipad Mini and say that is good-enough? Why add X-Ray testing and more scrutiny. Most people don't even know about the x-ray trailer anyway, so it's not even used as spin by UCI to show they're testing like the ipads are.

 

[miguelindurain111]

Re:

As a complete opposite to Femke's case.

Well in Femke's case nobody talked (to the press) untill after she was caught.

How do you think she was busted if no one of her rivals tipped UCI?

 

[Tienus]

If most top riders are using motors, then UCI are letting those riders bikes through the x-ray trailer saying they don't have motors, despite an x-ray saying the opposite? While it's plausible that all teams are protected by UCI from ever having a bike x-rayed showing a motor inside, surely the thing to do as the UCI would just be to stop at using the Ipad Mini and say that is good-enough? Why add X-Ray testing and more scrutiny. Most people don't even know about the x-ray trailer anyway, so it's not even used as spin by UCI to show they're testing like the ipads are.

It looks like stopping at using the ipad was the original plan.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-cycling-fraud-idUSKCN0XU27Z

I posted about thermal camera and x-ray testing introduced at last years tour.
viewtopic.php?p=1990649#p1990649
viewtopic.php?p=1955085#p1955085


As long as Gary Blem can personally drop of the bike of Froome at the x-ray station I'm not sure the bike he used is being tested.
I have also raised questions about checking in those zipped up tents. Who knows they only x-ray the bottom bracket and not the rear hub like in the picture above. In the video of the giro where Contador's bike is being checked in a tent they only look inside the bb too.

 

[Tienus]

How do you think she was busted if no one of her rivals tipped UCI?

I didnt say none of her rivals tipped the UCI. If you read back in the motordoping thread you will find that I posted proof of the UCI and Belgium federation being tipped about Femke.

The question is why was she busted.
Sniper posted an article not to long ago written by a sport economist from the Leuven univesity.
http://www.tijd.be/opinie/algemeen/Wielrennen-kan-ontkenning-en-omerta-rond-mechanische-doping-missen-als-kiespijn/9762776
Some of the text run through google translate:
Secondly, it is remarkable how again the weakest link is the only sacrifice on the altar of purification. After the initial indignation, several insiders found that a young girl could never put such fraud on her feet individually and without knowledge. UCI President Brian Cookson also said in a first reaction that all stakeholders would be prosecuted. However, only Femke Van den Driessche was convicted last week. The team and her personal entourage stay out of range. Once again, how in the cycling sport the riders are seen by their own teams as 'liabilities'. A burden that is dropped by the least problem, because it is "worthless" in the literal sense of the word. In the football, on the other hand, the players are 'assets'. Football clubs continue to fully support their players after doping or other perils, even legally, because they mean a commercial and transfer value.
For the UCI, it is also a blessing that the first case of mechanical doping occurs in a low-capital victim in one, let's be fair, marginal cycling discipline. There is no risk of an expensive trial team at the TAS, as in successful and less successful attempts in the past to punish Contador or the Katusha team. Cynically, this case for the UCI from a public point of view is therefore a full hit: a small investment with a high return and a maximum symbol value. That's the way they did not succeed in the full epo period. The press release that the UCI spread, therefore, carries a perverse form of triumphalism. Cookson even talks about a major victory for the UCI. Curiously, the UCI can even afford to justify the motivation for its decision only in a matter of months.

Femke got punished 20.000 swiss franks. There was a press release that looked like a pr document. Cookson when asked questions was referring to the reasoned decission which would come later. Its no surprise that there is still no reasoned decission today. Femke was riding that freak bike of hers, it probably was not confisgated in her pits. The 20.000 Franks might well be whats keeping her and her entourage quiet.

 

[samhocking]

The bikes and wheels are tagged to be x-rayed as they cross the line. The officials do this, not the mechanics.

The zipped up tent is not where the x-ray takes place, that's where the officials computer is and where they are also weighed in before being x-rayed in the black trailer.
The x-ray machine is inside a black trailer. This one.

 

[sniper]

Why is the tent zipped up?

Tienus, thanks for putting that link up again. Especially that second paragraph is bang on the money.
Low capital victim. Minimum effort. Maximum returns.

 

[miguelindurain111]

Re:

How do you think she was busted if no one of her rivals tipped UCI?

I didnt say none of her rivals tipped the UCI. If you read back in the motordoping thread you will find that I posted proof of the UCI and Belgium federation being tipped about Femke.

But for some reason Roglič's rivals are silent as Sniper says...Of course easily explained by various conspiracy theories.

 

[samhocking]

Here you can see the non-removable security tag on Froome's bike near the seatpost. This gets placed on a bike as it crosses the line and removed after the x-ray is complete. They put them on the wheels too.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

Why is the tent zipped up?

Tienus, thanks for putting that link up again. Especially that second paragraph is bang on the money.
Low capital victim. Minimum effort. Maximum returns.

The tent is not the x-ray machine. It's zipped up because it's pissing down, windy and all their gear is under there staying dry.

 

[Tienus]

But for some reason Roglič's rivals are silent as Sniper says...Of course easily explained by various conspiracy theories.

Femke's rivals where also silent as I just posted in a reply to you.

Cookson has also been tipped about Roglic by Thierry Vildary. Who knows how many tips the UCI receive. I expect Jean-Pierre Verdy has tried to share his info with the UCI. I also remember a documentary posted before. A guy is joining a local race with a motor. After the race he admits to a Belgium jury member what he did. The guy replies that he has been tipped about motors regularly.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
The tent is not the x-ray machine. It's zipped up because it's pissing down, windy and all their gear is under there staying dry.

I think the tent is also zipped up when the sun shines, correct me if wrong.

 

[miguelindurain111]

Re:

But for some reason Roglič's rivals are silent as Sniper says...Of course easily explained by various conspiracy theories.

Femke's rivals where also silent as I just posted in a reply to you.

You said "I didnt say none of her rivals tipped the UCI."...

So they tipped UCI being silent :lol:

 

[Tienus]

The tent is not the x-ray machine. It's zipped up because it's pissing down, windy and all their gear is under there staying dry.

I have only seen zipped up tents. Here is one with sunshine getting zipped up at 0:55.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twzXs6lxSOs


Why a security tag? They should store those bikes in a parque fermee. Gary Blem bringing a bike is really suspiscious. A journalist witnessed him bringing one.
http://www.zeit.de/sport/2016-07/tour-de-france-motordoping/komplettansicht
I can't see a tag on the wheels of Froome's bike in the picture you posted.

 

[sniper]

Re:

...
Femke's rivals where also silent as I just posted in a reply to you.

Cookson has also been tipped about Roglic by Thierry Vildary. Who knows how many tips the UCI receive. I expect Jean-Pierre Verdy has tried to share his info with the UCI. I also remember a documentary posted before. A guy is joining a local race with a motor. After the race he admits to a Belgium jury member what he did. The guy replies that he has been tipped about motors regularly.

Good points.

The other thing is, it stands to reason that, compared to the men's protour, you'll find quite a few riders in the women's pro-cyclocross circuit who are not using a motor, simply because they don't have the access or the resources and/or because the risk-reward ratio is less attractive there. I don't know for sure if that's the case, but if it is, it could mean there's a higher chance there that competitors choose to tip off the UCI as seems to have happened in the case of Femke.

 

[Tienus]

So they tipped UCI being silent

Yes. But i give up explaining to you. I guess most readers do understand.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

The bikes and wheels are tagged to be x-rayed as they cross the line. The officials do this, not the mechanics.

The zipped up tent is not where the x-ray takes place, that's where the officials computer is and where they are also weighed in before being x-rayed in the black trailer.
The x-ray machine is inside a black trailer. This one.

Hahaha you trust the UCI!!!!

 

[samhocking]

Re:

The tent is not the x-ray machine. It's zipped up because it's pissing down, windy and all their gear is under there staying dry.

I have only seen zipped up tents. Here is one with sunshine getting zipped up at 0:55.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twzXs6lxSOs


Why a security tag? They should store those bikes in a parque fermee. Gary Blem bringing a bike is really suspiscious. A journalist witnessed him bringing one.
http://www.zeit.de/sport/2016-07/tour-de-france-motordoping/komplettansicht
I can't see a tag on the wheels of Froome's bike in the picture you posted.

The tag can only be removed by destroying it (like a concert tag or clothing tag), in which case the mechanic would be violating UCI rule and rider disqualified if removed when bike is collected. The tag probably has an RFID on it, or at least a unique number, so you can't switch with other bikes or tags. The tag is added to the bike as each rider crossed the line, long before the mechanics get to the bike, so even if the mechanic takes the bike away, or rider warms down on the bike first, if there's a tag on it and the RFID is the same as the official has recorded for that rider, it must be the same bike that crossed the line so no need for a parque fermee. Mechanics and officials bring the bikes from the team bus warmdown or winners enclosure warmdown at the line. Some mechanics will bring other bikes simply to be officially weighed after washing them too, because washing usually adds some weight and they clearly need to know this to not go over the 6.8kg when dry again if using weights. I believe this is what Blem was doing with other bikes while waiting for Froomes bike to be returned in 2016? Either way, it would be very difficult to supply a different bike than had been tagged crossing the line as the same without everyone from teams ,mechanics, neutral service, the sub-contractors driving the x-ray machine around and setting it up each day etc involved. The team bus at the end of a race is one of the most densely populated areas of the finish, so I can;t see how a mechanic would have time or not be seen removing wheels. magnets, batteries and motors as there's no privacy to do it. I guess if you really had to you could take the bike back to the hotel first, but you don't know if your bike's going to be called for inspection in 5 minutes or 30 minutes.

My observations are that the tent is where the bike first goes for the standard UCI inspection, cranks removed, seatpost removed for endoscope inspections, wheels scanned for magnets and weighed. If the race has the UCI X-Ray trailer present, the laptop and the official for that is also under that zipped-ip tent. The cables run from the X-Ray machine back to the tent and into the laptop where the images are viewed and the official can compound the bike.

The reason the tent is zipped up is probably for security of the various inspection procedures the same as anti-doping control and of course bad weather too perhaps.

Wheels are tagged on the team carif the rider has had wheel changes

As you can see in the video with Contadors mechanic, he is in the winners enclosure with Contador warming down on the bike in public, but the bike is escorted by the UCI official while the mechanic pushes it to the tent. Inside the tent, you see Contadors mechanic removing crank in front of the inspection official. There is no time to switch bikes, change wheels and all the time the official is with the mechanic and the bike in in view of the public and cameramen.

 

[Tienus]

You trust the UCI I don't.

Six bikes tested all bang on the 6.8kg according to the UCI.
http://www.velonews.com/2013/07/tour-de-france/froome-contador-others-targeted-for-bike-weight-checks-at-alpe-dhuez_295850
The bike checks began with van Garderen’s BMC Team Machine SLR01, within minutes of his finish, and ended with Froome’s Pinarello Dogma 65.1 nearly 40 minutes later.

That’s more than enough time for a mechanic to slip some extra weight on to the bike, of course. There is no bike chaperone or chain of custody, as there is with doping controls. But Mottet believes bikes were not tampered with.


Fourty minutes for weighing five bikes?
Anyway Mottet believes bikes were not tampered with so its all good. Besides that SKY has been the most cooperative team with regard to motor check.

Another example why a parque ferme is nescessary:
viewtopic.php?p=1951050#p1951050

As you can see in the video with Contadors mechanic, he is in the winners enclosure with Contador warming down on the bike in public, but the bike is escorted by the UCI official while the mechanic pushes it to the tent. Inside the tent, you see Contadors mechanic removing crank in front of the inspection official. There is no time to switch bikes, change wheels and all the time the official is with the mechanic and the bike in in view of the public and cameramen.

This is the only example where we have a view what happens inside the zipped up tent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twzXs6lxSOs
They check his bottom bracket but what about the rear wheel?

 

[samhocking]

I'm not an insider, I don't know all the specifics of the procedure the officials follow, but generally from what i've discussed with a couple of mechanics and observed myself at many finish lines the following happens.

Rider crosses line
Bikes tagged by UCI official for routine winners inspection and then random inspections too
All Podium riders then ride their tagged bike around to winners enclosure and begin warm down
Rider finishes warming down
Mechanics for each rider's bike called to attend bike inspection and weigh-in
UCI official gets mechanic to walk bike from winners enclosure to the inspection tent
If the X-Ray trailer is being used, the bike I think is x-rayed first and then bought to the tent.
Bike is weighed
Team mechanic then removes BB/Crank and seat post etc
Frame inspected for motors and batteries by eyes, endoscope, ipad etc
Wheels scanned with ipad for magnets and I think get weighed separately against known manufacture/model weights?

All riders on the podium, the mechanic and the UCI officials never really leave the winners enclosure and it's all visible by the public as you see in Contadors video you posted of his bike being taken for inspection after warming down as winner. Randomly tagged bikes with riders not on the podium or classifications, probably do end up back at the team bus first, but it's a random inspection nonetheless. Even if you get away with switching wheels or bikes when not a winner, as soon as you are a winner, your bike, the wheels and the rider never leaves the winning enclosure as far as I can tell, so I can't see how a mechanic or team staff could switch wheels anyway. As a winner you and your bike have a cameras on you for the whole time. Someone would have filmed wheels being changed in winners enclosure i'm sure, given the high profile motor-doping has.

Of course if you don't trust anything UCI does, then all of this is simply actors pretending to be officials and it's all a rather convoluted, expensive act, perhaps not even necessary for credibility anyway and that's not the reason UCI are doing it from what I can tell?